Bathroom-law fallout in NC

@InigoMontoya

You’re completely misplacing the blame. Congress has overwhelmingly supported the Voting Rights Act for decades. It’s the conservative Roberts Supreme Court that overturned it and paved the way for blatantly discriminatory and hyper-partisan gerrymandering.

You can put a little bit of the blame indirectly on Congress for holding up consideration of a replacement Supreme Court justice this year. But really the blame rests squarely on the Supreme Court overturning decades of precedent in one fell swoop. Well, and on state governments that have taken advantage of it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/11/us/north-carolina-voting-rights-redistictricting-battles.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/opinion/voting-rights-lose-in-north-carolina.html

albert69–Things don’t always remain black and white for even the most jaded of souls. Change does happen.
That’s where learning and education come in. It happens over time. And hopefully others step in for support when it isn’t possible on the home front. Things do change.

I have friends whose D is now becoming male
I honestly had never thought about what a shock that would be to parents and friends and how hard that decision would be to “come out” for not only the individual but also for family. tt opened my eyes big time. It was real time education. But love my friends and kid also.
Lots of emotions went through me. “Glad it’s not me.” “How does she feel?” “How is mom (and dad) getting over her ‘little girl’ now being a boy?” “How do I support them?” Need more education on that last question.

Here was a girl I knew since she was very little. And now she was to be “son”. That’s in quotes because that is really hard for parents to accept. It’s a mourning of sorts. Sorry if that offends anybody. Nobody died but some dreams and memories did for the parents… Takes time to wrap your head around new concepts and old memories.
Not just for parents but society also. It does happen.

MusicPrint–"That said, if North Carolina as a state doesn’t suffer the consequences it won’t change. "

Really? We need the NBA to tell us what to do? How to think? I hope it doesn’t matter one whit what the NBA of all organizations think.
Things DO change. It might not happen overnight or at the pace you desire
I DO hope that a true democratic process takes over the “thinking” of mob rule and with a good result.

The ‘will of the people’ sounds great on paper when it comes to rights, but the ‘people’ have a horrible record on human rights, and there is no way to sweeten that. Almost all the great efforts in human rights have large components that involve the government, for example racial integration started with Harry Truman integrating the US military (and conservatives howled about that, and when people called those opposed to that bigots and racists, the same tired cry of ‘you don’t get anywhere calling people names, you have to respect people’s beliefs’. There are still libertarians and conservatives (Rand Paul was one of them) musing that Title IV was a mistake, that we should have let ‘the people’ end racism and so forth, the same thing was said about slavery, and the reality is that slavery, despite popular myth, was not a dying institution by the time the civil war was fought.

Brown versus Board of ed was a court decision that led directly to people changing their minds. Not the bigots and rednecks who fought it, but rather people from elsewhere who saw kids trying to go to school protected by troops while all these good, wonderful people were yelling nasty things at the kids, cursing them, and so forth. At the time of the Loving decision something like 90% of the population were against interracial marriage, after the decision 90% supported it. With same sex marriage, it was courts that made a lot of the progress with same sex marriage, and as that happened people’s attitudes changed. When Mass legalized same sex marriage in 2003, 70% of people in Mass were against it, within a year, the religious right types and conservative politicians that tried to override it failed miserably. It may be best to wait for the people, but if we did that with Jim Crow or interracial marriage you likely would see a world in the 21st century where both existed, still. People do change,it happens, but it can be a slow process and often needs a kickstart.

And yes, people are influenced by other people, in the battle over smoking the biggest change happened when other people started putting pressure on smokers, made it socially unacceptable to smoke in public places, all the warnings in the world, the surgeon generals report, did a lot less than when pressure on politicians led to smoking bans in the workplace, and at bars and restaurants (and despite the claims of economic ruin, no bars and clubs went out of business because of the ban).

I don’t think everyone in NC is a bigot, places like Charlotte or the research triangle are full of pretty well educated, young people who think this is all horrible. That said, though, the ‘good people’ have to realize that the bigots and such who engendered this law (and sorry, the whole bathroom protection thing is a smokescreen, there is no rational basis behind it, no proof from anywhere else that allow trans people to use restrooms, that it causes rape or molestation) are not going to listen to reason, and that their views that their religious beliefs or bigotry should be law hurts everyone on the state. Explaining away this law as ‘heartfelt belief’ is like teaching creationism as science because ‘the people believe that to be true’, it is allowing irrational belief or fear to override the rational, and law is supposed to be based on a rational, logical structure, not on belief, not on fear, not on hate, and when it comes to human rights other people’s beliefs are irrelevant, which is the key point. I used to belong to a very liberal church, and when talking about the religious right bigots, they used to say you have to understand their beliefs, that this is the way they were taught, that these are their sincerely held beliefs and we should respect them, but there is a difference between respecting beliefs and explaining away horrible actions based on those beliefs that deprive others of their rights.

^^^^ I doubt it is enforced anywhere.

^^“the whole bathroom protection thing is a smokescreen, there is no rational basis behind it”

Yes to this a hundred times over!

@MidwestDad3 We have done the same thing. We travel that route several times a year to get to our place in Hilton Head. We have always stopped overnight in Charlotte NC on every trip south for several years. We no longer do that.

@gouf78 Vote for pulling the game from NC? There wasn’t a vote. After Rick Welts poignant comments, not one owner spoke up against the move. It was the NBA executive team that made the decision.

I can’t really boycott NC. D1 is a 4th year Ph.D student there. I’m not going to stop visiting her.

Nope. The NBA is telling NC what *they * think and what *they * do when confronted with ignorance and bigotry. Whether and how NC responds to that is completely up to them. They can keep this unnecessary and discriminatory law if they want to. And other parties can boycott if they want to. That’s freedom, right?

Doesn’t this law also prevent anti-discrimination policies for the general LGBT community? Yikes, I would never want to live in a state in which a partner or friend could be fired for being gay.

Correct. Tolerance will not be tolerated!

@ecouter11 yes that part doesnt get reported, but theres a whole lot wrong with that law besides the bathroom issue!

"There is no real way to discuss things like this because one side feels that switching genders is perfectly okay and the other side sees it as a mental disorder, and neither is willing to admit the other is right. There is no real way to discuss gay/lesbian stuff because one side believes it’s wrong and one side believes it is right or at least allowable because God loves everyone. "

If the American Psychological Association or whoever the appropriate panel of experts is says it’s not a mental disorder, why isn’t that good enough for you? You seem to have a theme running through your posts where you don’t really believe in experts and science, but if you “feel” differently that’s just as valid. Well, I might “feel” the sun revolves around the earth but that doesn’t make it so.

And no, we don’t believe it’s “allowable because God loves everyone.” We believe it’s just none of our business and doesn’t affect us in any way. If you believe it’s “wrong,” then don’t do it - problem solved.

》》 if you “feel” differently that’s just as valid.《《

You’re funny. How can you possibly attack me for feeling any way I want? Isn’t that discrimination and bigotry? You mean I can decide that I “feel” like a man despite being a female and that’s normal, but I can’t “feel” anything else and have it be so?

So if you “feel” that the sun revolves around the earth, is that so, then?

By your logic, it should work like that.

You can “feel” what you want about transgender people being mentally ill, but please don’t expect others to give your non-expert opinion any credence against the weight of expert scientific opinion (especially given all the research in recent years on the subject) – any more than if you announced that you “felt” that gay and lesbian people were mentally ill, or that black people are inherently inferior, or that Jewish people have horns, or that the universe was created 6,000 years ago… And, by the way, I’ve met one or two trans people in my time, and nobody simply “decides” one day that their gender identity is different from the gender assigned to them at birth, or “decides” to be transgender; it doesn’t work that way. Which goes to show just non-expert your opinion is! (Just like the opinions of legislators who attempt to pass laws reflecting their “feelings” and prejudices.)

There was a lengthy thread about this very subject a couple of months ago, that went on for 40 pages and 600 comments. See http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1889365-ncs-transgender-law-violates-civil-rights-act-justice-says-p1.html. I said what I had to say in that thread, so you can go read it if you like. I have no great interest in arguing about it further here…

@albert69:
There is a difference between belief and the kinds of feelings that engender someone to want to transition. There is a direct parallel in evolution, there are sadly a lot of people who believe a bronze age creation myth is the truth and have tried to create ‘science’ to back up that the earth was created in 6 days 6000 years ago as it is today, but the fact is all they have is a belief that is true, whereas evolution has mega tons of evidence backing it up that can be proven. Those who believe gays are sinners or deviants or that it is a ‘choice’ are relying, not on fact, but for the most part belief inspired by supposedly what scripture says, whereas the reality is that being gay is a variation on human sexual orientation that as time has gone on, has been shown to exist in nature, and also follows the rules on typical human variations.

More importantly, the claims that for example if we allow same sex marriage kids would be hurt, or society will fall apart, have been shown to be false, studies of kids of gay parents show they are perfectly normal, and last I checked same sex marriage hasn’t cause the world to fall apart, people are still having kids, men and women are not rushing into same sex relationships because the sex is better (yes, virginia, there were a couple of people who wrote books that said that would be the result if we allowed gays to be socially acceptable, that straight relationships would disappear and kids wouldn’t be born and society would collapse, and they were given credence because they were college professors of sociology…problem was no one bothered to notice they were both fundamentalist Christians, which means anything they came up with should have been viewed as suspicious). Facts win out over bigotry, and just because someone believes something doesn’t mean it is true or more importantly, should be the law.

In terms of transgender people, the bigots would want people to believe that this is just one day someone decides “I am a woman” and that is that, which is absolutely fiction. First of all, transgender people have been working with therapists and mental health professionals for a long time, there have been signiicant studies, attempts to ‘cure’ transgender people, and over the past 50 or 60 years this has been done seriously…and in the end, this is not some will of the wisp, basically it has been shown that transgender people don’t choose this, it isn’t ‘gender expression’ that some quarters of the feminist movement claimed it was, everything indicates that people who are transgender were likely born that way, and that it is inate in who they are, it isn’t a ‘choice’, and science is backing this up, there is serious evidence that it is caused by brain structure and in turn is likely a result of some wrinkle in the hormone cycle pre natally, all of which is backed up by research, not by ‘belief’.

The other thing is, in a world of beliefs, you may have the right to your beliefs, but that is not the basis for law and shouldn’t be.The white trash down south believed that blacks were inferior, not in a small way thanks to the work of churches like the Southern Baptists, and the whole system of Jim Crow was based on that belief, but that doesn’t mean their beliefs should have been respect or worse, that the law reflect that. People have the right to believe what they wish but those beliefs end where other people’s right to live their lives as they see fit comes into play. The anti LGBT people have every right to feel as they wish, but when they want to put their beliefs, which generally are based in religious belief, into law they are over the line , especially since by what right does their religious beliefs have to be placed into laws, when other religious belief doesn’t mirror theirs?

The NC bathroom law may represent the beliefs of the great unwashed in the hills who control the legislature, but it doesn’t stand up to the test of law, that it actually does something in societies best interest. It certainly doesn’t protect women from sexual molestation, and it isn’t based on real world facts either. Plenty of towns and cities have had laws allowing transgender people to use the appropriate restroom for many years now, or simply didn’t care, and do you want to know how many times a man dressed as a woman to gawk at women or molest them in those places? Zero. And many of these places are cities with millions of people, where if it was gonna happen it would happen there, and it didn’t happen…so what is the point of the law? Its only point is to discriminate against transgender women because some people don’t like them and believe they are perverts or sinners, and what the hell is the law doing catering to that kind of belief?

I can respect people’s beliefs, what I won’t respect is their right to use them to hurt other people or tell them how to live, especially when it is based in religious belief. We had a period in history where religious belief controlled society, and it was far from a golden age, it was one of the bloodiest, darkest, lowest times in human civilization, every time religious belief was allowed to rule society you ended up with an oppressed, backward going society, whether it was the middle ages and the church, or the puritans in England.

And yes, the law wasn’t just about bathrooms, as bad as it was, it invalidated any local law proteting LGBT people, so if Charlotte or another town had anti discrimination laws, the state legislature invalidated them, made it illegal for any town or jurisdiction to pass any law not mirrored in state law, and since the statehouse is controlled by the rednecks in North Carolina, well, you get the picture. By the way, North Carolina, before the Supreme Court ruled on same sex marriage, passed a ballot initiative that not only amended the state constitution to ban same sex marriage, but it banned gay couples from using the law to get any of the rights of marriage through contracts, including things like trying to protect a surviving partners rights to the other ones 401k, to keep custody of children, medical power of attorney and so forth…so don’t tell me this law came out of nowhere, or was the result of the recent governor and legislature, the amendment I was talking about was passed more than a few years ago on a statewide ballot and passed by something like 80% of the votes…so this law is only one more indication of who is running the state, and it isn’t the ‘good minded people’, that is for sure.

@albert69 said:

No, a lot of us believe it’s “allowable” because reams of research reveal that sexual orientation is a biological phenomenon. In other words, this is determined biologically; it’s the way people are “wired.” So if this is how people are wired, then it has nothing to do with morals, nothing to do with choice. Someone is inherently gay just as you are inherently straight. No one had to teach you to flush, feel your heart rate increase when that special someone looks at you or talks to you, or feel weak at the knees when he kisses you. It’s beyond your control how you feel or how you react to a given individual. It’s who you are. And gays and lesbians are who they are because they were genetically determined to be who they are, just as you were genetically determined to be who you are. This really isn’t in question among scholars who have researched and studied this extensively.

What if someone actually is racist or bigoted? For example, suppose a court case is assigned to a judge of Mexican ancestry, and one of the parties in the case complains that the judge is unsuitable because of his Mexican ancestry.