<p>My girls’ upbringing was a mixed of Chinese and American. They did sleepovers, but very rarely. They went to parties in high school (where there was alochol), but they didn’t drink. But by the time D1 went off to college, we didn’t have any further discussion about drinking. I have told D1 straight out when she gained weight freshman year. I did offer to get her a nutritionist, but I also said (in a joking tone, but she didn’t know if I was serious), “I am not buying you a whole new wardrobe to accomondate your weight gain.” I was hard on my kids when they were in grade school about their grades and work ethic, but once they got to middle school I didn’t even know what they were studying, and both kids had excellent grades even by Chinese standard. We never forbidded the girls to have sex in high school, but D1 waited until she was college when she was in a serious relationship, and D2 is not dating in high school yet.</p>
<p>When D1 was in high school, her friends all thought I was very strict (a bit psycho probably). They made some disparaging comments about me to D1, and D1 used to say to me that she probably had more freedom than some of those kids. To her friends, it appeared that she was required to do ballete 15+hours a week (but she loved it); she couldn’t stay out late to party, but she had her own car to come and go (as long as she told where and when), and she was used to get on the train to go into NY to get hair cut, eat and shop (which many of those kids’ parents would never let them).</p>
<p>When I confronted D1 about her weight, she told me that she was worried about it herself, so we talked about how to deal with it. The other day she called to let me know (ask) about driving few hours to visit her already graduated BF. My initial instinct was it would be better for him to take a bus to visit her (with all the snow recently), and I offered to pay for the trip. To some people I maybe too bossy to tell my 21 year old daughter what to do. It did occurr to me that maybe I was over stepping my boundary, and I emailed her to let her know that I was just concerned about her safety. Her reply back was, “I know, and that’s why I listen to you so much.”</p>
<p>At the end of day, it is about trust between parent/child. If there is no trust, then anything we do would appear controlling, manipulative, or self serving. The reason I am “allowed” to say or do to my girls is because of our relationship, and sometimes they would forgive me if I should “misbehave” because of good will I have built up with them. I would imagine this is the case with Chua, and a lot of parents out there, whether they are Chinese or of a different culture.</p>
<p>I agree with that. I also agree with Wildwood that picking an individual incident to criticize Chua’s parenting does not help the debate. Our interest should be if our parenting has become too permissive and our kids suffer from it. As Wildwood pointed out that for some parents 6 hours of practice may be horrifying but I am personally more horrified by 6 hours of TV watching as well as the amount of candies kids consume. We can pick and choose to dissect every tiny incident to ridicule Chua. By all means if it gives anyone temporary pleasure. It doesn’t make me feel better or assure me that our kids are doing well facing the global competition.</p>
<p>Some posters have said that the Chua’s kids didn’t know better because of Stockholm syndrome. I disagree with that. I am sure those kids by the time they were 10-15 have had many interactions with friends and other parents. They would know if they were treated badly by their mother in comparison with their friends. My girls knew we had stricter rules than their friends, but they were fine with it. I knew, growing up, my father was overly strict with me, and I rebelled. In Chua’s household, other than those incidents with Lulu, I don’t see those kids running away from home or doing drugs.</p>
<p>I can never guess where the supposed statistics about American TV watching come from. Do any of the “Western” parents on this board have children who watch TV more than an hour per day, or even that much?</p>
<p>I don’t know whether Chua ever remarked to her daughters, “Hey fatty!” However, I think Chua herself might have had some problem with body issues, if the link I posted above to the Harvard Crimson from November 1980 is legit. I think it is, but didn’t dig around to check. It’s just a little odd to stuff your clothing with pillows, put on a down jacket, and run around to simulate the feeling of being obese. Furthermore, “Hey fatty!” is a somewhat odd choice of phrasing (to my ears, anyway); on the other hand, there was a popular reggae song from the mid-1970’s that started out "Hey fatty . . . "</p>
<p>Well, I’ll admit to watching more TV than I probably should. Of course, there’s TV and then there’s TV. I enjoy the History Channel, Discovery Channel, CSPAN, the California Government Channel, and PBS. More than once an interview on “Booknotes” or “Fareed Zakaria GPS” has led me to buy a book or research somebody or something online. I also enjoy watching Jeopardy and playing along. I’ve learned things there as well. </p>
<p>On a less erudite level I will admit to watching sports occasionally. I have a slightly unhealthy addiction to “Law and Order” reruns, although they did teach me about “depraved indifference homicide.” And I do waste a good deal of time reading other people debate a CT law professor’s parenting methods on CC. But I consider those things entertainment. ;)</p>
<p>Chua recalls overhearing her daughters talking and joking about her as Darth Vader, but she didn’t mind the label. That reminded me of how I discovered once that D1 had me represented on her phone as “Hitler”. It didn’t hurt or offend me because I understood her sense of humor, but I asked her to change it because I thought the casual reference might bother some of her Jewish friends. It became “Generalissimo”.</p>
<p>My relationship with D1 was similar to Chua’s with Lulu. She said they were very much alike in their strong will and toughness. While they butted heads a lot, they were also very close (until Lulu went through the rebellion phase) and would quickly get over any anger and be joking and chatting with each other as if nothing ever happened. D2 was more like Sophia. I had a reputation among their friends as a weird mix of strict and liberal–my Ds had a lot of freedom in self-expression and other areas.</p>
<p>QM - We are comparing two extremes. No, most kids don’t watch TV that much but then most kids don’t practice that much, either. If anything, it’s more likely that kids watch 6 hours of TV than anyone doing 6 hours of practice. That’s a moot point. Chua and her kids are only three people. Whatever happens to them is not even a drop in the bucket.</p>
<p>Maybe Chua hit the nerve and stirred up our uneasy feeling that we are not doing as well as we hoped. We emphasize leadership and we find ourselves surrounded by people gaming the system. We emphasize creativity and we get a few geniuses but far more who lack basic skills. I am worried. When people claim international tests don’t really test our kids and list justifications, it doesn’t convince me although I sure wish they are right.</p>
<p>Yep, I hear you, bovertine–time spent on CC debating CT law profs parenting methods! Of course that’s entertainment! :)</p>
<p>Iglooo, I think you are misunderstanding the nature of the uneasy feelings this is stirring up, though. It reminds me a little of an ad that I saw once for lace. It mentioned that the lacemakers spent so much time focusing on tiny details that they eventually went blind. Thus, the lace was very rare. This was supposed to make one want to buy the lace. It seemed repellent to me, and to anyone with common decency, I’d think.</p>
<p>I am by no means saying that the young Chua-Rubenfeld women have been harmed in a way approaching that. However, if I am listening to a pianist, and I know that the skill has been achieved at what I consider to be a very high cost, it definitely reduces my pleasure in the music, to the point that I’d rather not hear it.</p>
<p>I think the reason that I keep returning to this thread is not the fear of outcomes for my children, nor for Americans more generally, but the uneasy feeling that I as a Western parent came closer to Chua on a few occasions than I’d really care to acknowledge. Too bad she didn’t write the book sooner to drive me off that behavior!</p>
<p>Now that we are focused more on parenting methods than Chua’s family, I wonder if there really is difference in the evolution of parenting. Do we let our kids sleep alone from day 1 or do we let them stay close to mom’s heart for awhile? If we were animals, what kind of animals were we, those that let the young drop on the ground and go or those that let the young stay around for a while? Do we see our kids as independent individuals or extension of ourselves? I trust some parents know a lot more than this parent.</p>
<p>“The point Chua is making, and that I would agree with, is that Western parenting, at least in the current generation, includes a lot of overprotecting of feelings, that sometimes can have the opposite effect of what’s intended.”</p>
<p>I think that the stereotype of “self esteem movement parenting” if anyone actually does it, could be like that. My own impression, biased by life in Northern Virginia perhaps, is that such parenting is rare among upper middle class baby boomer parents, that there is lots more hard driving race to nowhere parenting. And some parents who APPROPRIATELY protect their kids feelings. </p>
<p>I see a world where kids tease and bully each other, where teachers focus on quantitative goals, and sometimes push (esp gifted) kids to meet those goals without much emotional concern, where kids feel they have to do exceptionally well to have a future, etc. I think having an emotionally safe home base, which does NOT necessarily mean the exagerated stereotypes of “self esteem movement” parenting, is very valuable in that world. </p>
<p>Note well, I am NOT attacking “Chinese” parenting or anyone else’s approach. However if you are going to attack mine, I will respond. </p>
<p>I can say we have always made our daughter aware of our unconditional love, etc. We know parents (NOT Asian, btw) who focused on good grades, used behavioral techniques, etc, focused on intense classical music training in a couple of cases. And their kids had hi IQs from the get go. Our DD got into a better college than theirs did. In at least one case theirs dropped out after one semester of college. Now I dont want to go on too much, cause our DD has not yet started college (she is on gap year) but from what I can see of people I know in the real world, I am NOT convinced that our approach to parenting is inferior.</p>
<p>This is not the case for me. I look around our community, and see our kids doing amazing things! I think what struck a nerve with me is the implication that a defined “Western style” of parenting exists, and that it is bad. That is a negative stereotype. When your culture is being judged as “inferior,” it is natural to want to defend it. I don’t want America to be like China. We love our freedom to pursue happiness in our own individual ways, with straight As and musical instruments being optional. As I see it, the Chinese mother method threatens that freedom.</p>
<p>I don´t get that. On the one hand, it is ok to attack Chua´s way (I don´t even want to use Chinese way) is inferior, and stereotype it as a “Chinese or Asian way,” but it is a negative stereotype when the table is turn a bit (Western style is too cuddling). But the bottom line, no one needs to feel threatened or be afraid anything would be taken away, as long as they are comfortable with their parenting style, no one is saying to be successful one needs to follow Chua´s style.</p>
<p>I am not afraid that my kids would lose their Chinese ways because they live in the US or are surrounded by kids who party a lot. The reason is we don´t follow 100% of Western style of parenting, we still do it our way even though we are Americans.</p>
<p>^You are right, oldfort, I am taking it to the extreme. But imagine if everyone in America decided to raise their kids in the “Chua method” - what a boring, predictable country we would live in.</p>
<p>Amy Chua is certainly very thin, but I don’t think this is necessarily evidence of an eating disorder, or body image problem. Many Asian women are naturally thin. I do wonder about her clothes. I saw an interview with her where she was sitting on a stool wearing a very tight, very short skirt. She is in her late 40’s - is it considered appropriate for a woman this age to dress this way if she has the figure of a teenager? Is it usual for law professors to dress this way? (I know next to nothing about fashion and I am curious about this.)</p>
<p>When I used to live around the Short Hills, NJ area, that´s how many moms dressed (Jewish, Asians, WASPS…), anyone who had skinny enough figure. I once went to pick up kids at school in my jeans, a mom (not Asian) came out with leather pants and boots, tight shirt, and very short hair cut. D1 said, “This is just so wrong.”</p>
<p>oldfort: Regarding your post 1352: the only reason people are attacking Chua’s way and calling it the “Chinese way” is because Chua herself labeled her method Chinese, as did the press. This thread has already established many times now that not all Chinese people parent her way. We’re not even certain MOST Chinese people parent this way. But we all know people of various ethnicities who do parent this way, and you’ve got to admit that there are way more Chinese Americans in that group than non-Chinese Americans by a long shot.</p>
<p>What makes me uneasy about this whole thing, is that with our economy in bad shape, and with regular news reports about the Chinese economy overtaking ours, some Americans appear afraid enough about their pocketbooks that they seem a little too ready to jump on the Chinese bandwagon. There’s talk about modeling our educational system after Singapore or Taiwan or China, and now perhaps even leaning our Western parenting style more in the Chinese direction. Let’s keep in mind where human rights, free speech, democracy, and self-determination have gotten us as a country. Chua’s method runs counter to personal freedom and self-determination, and THAT is why we are uneasy about it unduly influencing our society.</p>
<p>Could some Americans be more demanding regarding their children’s academics? Probably. Should some of us impose stricter limits on our children’s time in front of screens? Definitely. But should we revert to some unenlightened model of childhood as being a serious business–nothing more than a preparation for adulthood, which therefore must involve laboring in the factory (instrument practice) or apprentice’s workshop (school) from morning 'til night with nary a break to eat, use the bathroom, or sleep? NO!</p>
<p>"I don´t get that. On the one hand, it is ok to attack Chua´s way (I don´t even want to use Chinese way) is inferior, and stereotype it as a “Chinese or Asian way,” but it is a negative stereotype when the table is turn a bit (Western style is too cuddling). "</p>
<p>I have an idea, when someone writes a book advocating “self-esteem” parenting, and explicitly or implicitly puts down the opposite, and it gets the same degree of publicity as Chua, feel free to attack that book.</p>
<p>We can discuss if that book is reasonable, or over the top.</p>
<p>But this thread is about Chua and the type of parenting advocated in her book.</p>
<p>“some Americans appear afraid enough about their pocketbooks that they seem a little too ready to jump on the Chinese bandwagon”</p>
<p>I remember when Japan was the land of all work, seriousness, drive, - the antidote to decadence</p>
<p>Then somehow we got [Otaku</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku]Otaku”>Otaku - Wikipedia), etc, etc and todays kids hardly believe that we ever thought of Japan QUITE the way we did.</p>