<p>Just wanted to applaud TheGFG’s post #1357.</p>
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<p>Again, the book is being mischaracterized. Chua is not really advocating anything. The book is her story, with all the warts. It is mostly about her daughters but also includes chapters on her dogs, her sister, and her mother-in-law, who as a Western parent, did a great job with her son. </p>
<p>Yes, a major theme is contrasting what she labels Western and Chinese parenting, but she does not put down Western parenting any more than she does Chinese parenting, they are what they are and I think she is pretty accurate in her descriptions. She points to the Western philosophy encouraging individualism and choice. And when she talks about the way Chinese parents would talk to their kids…the “hey fatty” comment, well the reader can be the judge (as plenty obviously are).</p>
<p>She made a choice early on and obviously prefers the Chinese style overall, but she’s not being harder on Western parenting than she is on her own self.</p>
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<p>I’m sure Amy Chua is no different from many Asian women, who are slender and petite naturally. If I had that kind of figure, I’d be wearing above the knee skirts as well. Being a law professor has nothing to do with it. I think she looks great for a forty-something year old woman, more power to her if she can pull that off. I think this is a red herring, as there is no evidence that she has ever called her own kids fatty or anything of the sort – her comment was about Chinese mothers in general talking like that, not about anything she ever did.</p>
<p>On a slightly different note, I find it offensive when people of ANY ethnic group make sweeping generalizations about themselves or other ethnic groups. Last weekend, I was at a social event with other parents from the area with students at XWZ University. Each parent took a turn to introduce themselves and their student (who was not present). The mom next to me (immigrant from South Asia) explained why she had her daughter come home every weekend, (“In our culture, families are very close.”) I (white, non-Hispanic U.S. citizen) took offense because , let’s be honest here, where does this notion come from that WASP families aren’t close? I actually live in the same country (actually, state) as my elderly parents, spend holidays and weekends with them, visit them regularly. If these families are so close, why do the children leave to come to the U.S.? I will make a sweeping generalization- for personal financial gain.
It seems to me a lot of this heavy-duty parenting is not about family closeness or what’s best for the child, but for bragging rights and parental control.</p>
<p>“Again, the book is being mischaracterized. Chua is not really advocating anything”</p>
<p>Then whats the deal with the title? The Battle Hymn of the Republic didnt exactly say “hey the republic, and the confederacy, they are both kewl, we just want to talk about how the Republic is what works for us” It was “this is a life and death struggle, and BTW God is on our side” She is educated enough to know the allusion.</p>
<p>Its either a piece of advocacy, or its shtick.</p>
<p>OK- I haven’t read this book and I don’t really want to get involved (really) but I read this and it cracked me up because this thread was the first thing I thought about - it’s a quote from Mark Zuckerberg’s dad -</p>
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<p>[Facebook’s</a> Mark Zuckerberg: He got computer exposure young, dad says - San Jose Mercury News](<a href=“Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg: He got computer exposure young, dad says – The Mercury News”>Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg: He got computer exposure young, dad says – The Mercury News)</p>
<p>He must be the only person in the world who hasn’t heard of this book.</p>
<p>Regarding post 1357, it is all about people´s insecurity, isn´t it? When I came to this country, as a teen, the rave back then was we must be more like Americans - great educational system, good innovation, less bureaucracy…My parents thought there were many good points about Americans, but they also believed there were many bad ways about Americans too. They used to tell us to only pick up American´s strength and keep good Chinese traditions. </p>
<p>When you have strong believe of what you are doing, you are not going to be easily influenced by other people. If a believe or tradition is so easily changed, then maybe it´s not as deep rooted. </p>
<p>Americans have a lot of good strong qualities. We are the melting pot of many different cultures. I don´t think one culture will easily dominate another. In many ways, we have captured many of the best aspects of each culture, and that´s what make Americans so special.</p>
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<p>I take it to refer to her own battle to carry out her mission at all costs or the battle of wills with her daughters. After all, there was nothing easy about the way she parented. She had to be a “Tiger” with the qualities of that Chinese zodiac animal (which was her symbol). She wrote about the Tiger’s characteristics a few times, for example, “The Tiger, the living symbol of strength and power, generally inspires fear and respect”. or “They are very confident, perhaps too confident. They like to be obeyed and not the other way around”.</p>
<p>It took a lot of effort to constantly impose her will on her daughters, even though she still may believe it was worth it in the end. I don’t think it had anything to do with doing battle with Western parents.</p>
<p>oldfort, the part I really liked about TheGFG’s post #1357 was the reference to “free speech, democracy, and self-determination.” These are very deeply rooted in American beliefs. There is no question about that. Yet these values can be overturned by force. They can also be lost if the majority is no longer committed to them, because they do not value democracy and self-determination. The rights of Americans have been won and sustained at a very high price, in terms of lives.</p>
<p>Interesting article, Bovertine, but here again the author says Chua’s book, which I doubt she read, “recommends” a certain strategy for parenting. That’s just not the case.</p>
<p>QuantMech - are you saying non-Americans do not value freedom? I don’t think Asian parenting is against democracy, that’s a pretty giant leap. Chua’s parenting methodology is not going to challenge America’s democracy, freedom…or whatever is the American way (I could almost hear the super hero theme song coming on now).</p>
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<p>That rave has been gaining much steam in Mainland China over the last decade among parents and some educators critical of the Chinese education system. </p>
<p>It is one reason why more well-off Chinese parents are sending their kids to US college/universities for undergrad rather than opt for the older preferred path of topflight Chinese undergrad(Especially Bei-da and Tsinghua) –> US grad school(Preferably the “top schools” like MIT, Berkeley, HYP, etc.)</p>
<p>I’ve also heard from my parents and those of their generation…especially those who have experienced undergrad in both their country of origin and the US that the US undergrad experience forces students to develop critical thinking, analysis, and the ability to “think on your feet”. Something which hardly happens in the “sit down, shut up, and take notes while the Prof lectures from the textbook for an hour or more” affairs common in almost all East Asian undergraduate institutions.</p>
<p>oldfort, I will say flatly that I do not believe that the people ruling China value freedom. For example, consider the censorship of Google, including what comes up when you Google Tiananmen Square in the US vs. in China. Or consider the treatment of Liu Xiaobo, the 2010 Nobel laureate. I won’t make a generic claim about the Chinese people, many of whom are oppressed and no doubt do value freedom. </p>
<p>However, I do also think that an upbringing that emphasizes adherence to the dictates of authority (parents or others), and in which the parents constantly side with the teacher or coach rather than the child, is anti-democratic, yes.</p>
<p>I have never thought of myself as a “tiger mother”, and I am white, not chinese. But I was surprised that my mother thinks of me as a “tiger mother”. My mother (age 72) plays on a tennis team with a bunch of young mommies and she told them I was a tiger mother in that I “expected” (or maybe she said demanded, but really it is expected) my kids to get A’s. They all thought that was horrifying! On the other side though they played lots of sports and went on plenty of sleepovers.</p>
<p>Let me add that the Chinese families that I know personally are without exception wonderful people, and bear about as much resemblance to Chua as I do, in terms of their child-rearing practices. Their children are very accomplished, and have grown to become young people of whom any parent could be very proud, virtually without exception.</p>
<p>I had a Ph.D. student quite a few years ago who had survived the Great Leap Forward. It delayed his graduate education by more than 25 years, but he finally was able to pursue graduate work. When his son was offered the opportunity to take additional math classes on Saturday, the man urged him to do so, saying, “That is like more food for you.” You would not find a US-born family who would have valued that opportunity so highly, and the remark is made all the more poignant by the starvation and near-starvation the man had witnessed.</p>
<p>I know that the situation has changed dramatically. However, we used to have a “Chinese-American Friendship Association” that invited us to celebrate the Chinese New Year. This went on for several years, and everyone enjoyed it. Then the directive came from somewhere in China to stop inviting anyone not from the PRC. So the joint celebration stopped. This is absolutely trivial compared to the circumstances that many in China continue to face.</p>
<p>Also, oldfort, has the one-child policy been suspended? Maybe so–I do not actually know.</p>
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Yeah, I have no idea since as I’ve said, I haven’t read the book. It does appear there’s a difference of opinion on this issue among people who have read the book, even on this thread. I have no idea how you know whether this author read the book or not.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I don’t really see where it makes any difference whether she comes out and says she advocates something or not. It seems you are hung up on this detail as you keep repeating it</p>
<p>It seems to me that people are really commenting on the method she describes, or elements of it. At least that would be appropriate. If she doesn’t advocate it people would be better to comment positively or negatively on the method without personalizing it to her.</p>
<p>The kind of democracy Westerners want is different than what Asians want. The kind of liberty Westerners think is important is not necessary the same for Asians. </p>
<p>H was an East Asian study major in college (and he is continuing his study with me). He wrote a paper about why communism for China, and why it was necessary. To have democracy, the general population needs to be educated and there needs to be stability for economic growth. For China to get stability it needed to have control over its population first, then ability to feed them, and then to have the resource to educate the population. China was too big to be united without very strong government, and it turned to dictatorship and communism. China needed a total re-make to move into the 20th century, to create change it also meant general disturbance to the old way of living, which is what we saw in China (cultural revolution and great leap forward).</p>
<p>In the last 30 years, with more stability within China, it is encouraging more entrepreneuriship, it is following more global business practice, and having more law and order in the country, and it is opening its door to investors. Even with China moving toward more freedom and democracy, I don’t think most Chinese would say they would need or want total democracy in order to have happiness.</p>
<p>Just to answer QuantMech - I just came back from an economic conference in China. They no longer discuss one child policy, it is not the government’s focus. They are more concerned whether they should let RMB float, and if Shanghai will become the next trading center. Their 5 year plan includes green energy. They are looking for stability and focusing on China’s economic growth. They are thinking if they should invest billions in the US (factories) in order to create more jobs in the US. China holds billions of US Treasury, with more jobs and better economy in the US, their treasury (investment) would go up.</p>
<p>I do find this statement in post #1378 scary: “I don’t think most Chinese would say they would need or want total democracy in order to have happiness.” That is antithetical to the principles on which the US was founded. </p>
<p>Also, does the statement that the one-child policy is no longer discussed mean that it no longer applies?</p>
<p>This is what BBC News had to say about the one-child policy in late September 2010: <a href=“http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11404623[/url]”>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11404623</a></p>
<p>QuantMech - I guess I really don’t get what you are so scared of. They are Chinese living in China. Why can’t they live the way they want to live? They are not imposing their believes onto anyone.</p>
<p>Why are we bringing up one-child policy? I am not seeing the connection.</p>
<p>I hate political discussion because I really just don’t care, but I will say that the biggest threat to democracy is poverty, not education. I am living in Mexico where there is suppose to be democracy and capitalism. Due to poverty and lack of of education, most people do not have much of freedom - they have no means of going from one place to another, without education they have no ways of getting a better job, the only way out of poverty is through drug trafficking, which creates a dangerous living condition for the general public (so most people are confined to their own homes).</p>
<p>In the US, due to the economic down turn, good higher education is becoming less accessible to the middle class, at the same time more lucrative jobs are requiring the right education, and there are less government social programs, there is a danger of our country turning into haves and have nots. When there is too much economic inequality then there could be more unrest in a society. I don’t see Chua’s way of parenting would be a threat to American freedom, it’s the poverty that could be a bigger threat to the American way of life.</p>