Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

<p>Good for Lulu to recognize that she needed to “own” her own activities. That’s really what she’s saying to Chua at the end of the book. She enjoys violin, wants to continue, just not at the intense level that Mom demands.</p>

<p>When Chua notices that the child is starting to win tennis matches, she tries to get involved, and Lulu firmly rebuffs her. (The concept that there are 10,000 junior tennis players in Connecticut is astonishing; surely this is metaphor?) So at that level, she’s actually succeeded in parenting: the kid recognizes that Chua is detrimental to her accomplishment and discourages her involvement.</p>

<p>I was delighted by her husband’s comment in a newspaper review of his own novel this weekend. Inevitably, the reporter asked him about Amy’s book, and his response was something to the effect of, “I’m a very private person and I don’t like to talk about my family issues. But I encourage you to read my wife’s memoir.”</p>

<p>And Sophia’s comment at the end of the book is telling. She tells Chua that she decided years ago to “let” her mother parent her that way.</p>

<p>“Every single time that Chua (or any other parent) says to a kid you can’t do X (something the kid wants), because you have to do Y (something the parent wants) instead, the parent is showing that they don’t care.”</p>

<p>Wow! What did I miss! It’s so weird checking in on this thread between family “therapy” sessions.</p>

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<p>That’s not true at all. The parent is acting upon his/her child’s best interests. In a more extreme yet common situation, young kids think they found their “soulmate” and consider themselves ready for an intimate relationship. But their parents know better. They have the experience. And that’s crucial.</p>

<p>If the kid tells his parents he wants to be a professional banjo player when he grows up, I think the parent should consider it a responsibility to give their kid a reality check. It’s not that they’re forcing their kids to do what they want. It’s that they’re trying to push their kids into what they can hopefully be happy with the rest of their lives with. Not at all.</p>

<p>I was thinking something much simpler…kid says “I would like to stick a paperclip in the electric outlet”, and parent says “I would like you to give me the paperclip”</p>

<p>Don’t ask me how I came up with that one, and don’t ask me if I was the kid or the parent.</p>

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<p>How I handled that type of thing: "When you graduate from college and do really well on the banjo playing test, you can be a banjo player!</p>

<p>[Bla</a> Fleck - The Official Website](<a href=“http://www.belafleck.com/]Bla”>http://www.belafleck.com/)</p>

<p>If my kid told me he wanted to play banjo like Bela Fleck I would be thrilled, but I might suggest that he not give up his day job yet.</p>

<p>Re posts #1482 & 1484: Try reading the whole paragraph I wrote in #1489; context is useful. </p>

<p>To make it easy, I’ll put it in quotes here, with the parts you seemed to miss bolded:</p>

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<p>I think you mean 1479, and I DID read that. I asked “what did I miss?”. I guess I needed something lighter at that point in my day! Seriously.</p>

<p>Pesky work! Bah! </p>

<p>Note to self. No more posting from work. Sorry.</p>

<p>NYT on sleepovers. I ALWAYS ask my “tween” patients about sleepovers. My husband LOATHES them, but as with many things, we compromise. </p>

<p><a href=“Ensuring Domestic Tranquillity During Sleepovers - The New York Times”>Ensuring Domestic Tranquillity During Sleepovers - The New York Times;

<p>"Parents may see this as an opportunity for judgment and discussion; for their children, though, the sleepover has become something between a cultural totem and an ineluctable component of the pursuit of happiness.</p>

<p>“By the 1980s, you had to sleep over; otherwise your parents were oppressing you,” Professor Fass said. “It was already, by the 1980s, not a privilege but a right.”</p>

<p>"Every single time that Chua (or any other parent) says to a kid you can’t do X (something the kid wants), because you have to do Y (something the parent wants) instead, the parent is showing that they don’t care. "</p>

<p>The key words here are ‘every single time’. It is funny, those responding to this particular point assume that the poster was saying that a parent should abrogate all responsibility, and that is ridiculous. Equating sticking a finger in a light socket or playing with matches to making choices, for example, like whether to play an instrument or not, whether to play sports or not is comparing what should be discretionary to what should be mandatory as a parent.</p>

<p>The lines at times obviously can be blurred, but most of the time it is defining a line between at a given age, where the kid can safely make choices, where you respect their wishes, and where you don’t. When my son was little, he loved to draw, and at times we caught him drawing on the walls, and we didn’t exactly say “that is okay, go ahead, we understand” we stopped him from doing it and made clear it was something they shouldn’t do, and unlike many parents, we also told him why, but if he wanted to spend hours drawing on paper or cutting out paper and gluing it or whatever, we on the contrary didn’t sit there and tell him “you can’t be doing that, you need to be doing X or Y”. </p>

<p>I also question the mentality that ‘parents always know better’ when it comes to everything, I find that fundamentally flawed. Yes, we hopefully have wisdom and experience of years (well, I hope so, I have met a lot of parents who seem to have aged but not gained much wisdom) in guiding them, but there is a difference between the iron hand setting everything and the person who sets boundaries on some things and guides the other.</p>

<p>Examples?</p>

<p>-Kid is having trouble in school, isn’t doing well. It would be a ridiculous parent who ignores something like that, didn’t try to find out what the problem was and rectify it, whether the kid isn’t focused, whether they have a learning disability, whatever. Given the importance of learning, of being able to learn, not working on this when it comes up is not a good thing. </p>

<p>-Kid wants to play an instrument, parent says “Why should we spend money on it, you’ll never be any good”. Really? First of all, how does the parent know, and how don’t you know until you try? Even if the kid is notorious for starting and not finishing things, maybe this will be the one that changes the pattern, you never know. </p>

<p>-14 year old girl wants to get a body piercing because her best friend did…might be a gray area for some, but given the nature of such things, I suspect most parents would tell her if it was important, she could wait until she was older…</p>

<p>-Kid wants to play little league baseball, parent thinks it is a waste of time (for whatever reason), etc… Kid showed an interest, why not?</p>

<p>When you rigidly control everything the kid does once they get past the very early years, you are telling them basically that they have no sense of self, and more importantly that they have no right to explore and find out there own things, and quite frankly how are they going to develop a sense of making choices for themselves, of facing the fact that choices have consequences, when we make them all for them? The approach Chua and her type take is basically that the kid is a total loser, that they know absolutely nothing about what is good or not, and therefore they have to control everything else there be disaster, and that is crap, and I suspect any therapist worth their salt would be as appalled at Chua et al as they would be at the parent who had no boundaries or control over their kids. </p>

<p>And the whole idea of ‘parent always knows best’ is bizarre to me, on top of everything else, I know damn well from how I was raised that what my parents knew and believed was best in some cases wasn’t best for me, some of which I regret quite bitterly as an adult (not questiong that they meant well, of course they did). What they couldn’t understand was I am a different person then they are, and what they wished for me might not be what I wished for myself. On the other hand, my parents gave me latitude with things and they allowed me to make choices and they also allowed me at times to fall flat. Put it this way, a kid when they learn to walk , despite all the precautions we take, often fall down and sometimes get bumps and bruises, and that pattern goes on as we go through life, albeit in different forms.</p>

<p>One of the most valuable lessons is the lesson in learning how to take adversity and failure, how to pull yourself up because the parents allowed you to do that. What happens to the kid whose parent steered them into everything they ever did, sat on them to do everything to a high level, decided pretty much the whole course of their life through college, and then when they are on their own and face a situation, for example work, where they have to make choices, like, for example, to take another job or not, they make the choice, and it doesn’t work out…will they be able to handle it, or will they collapse like a house of cards? Will they have the courage in a situation that demands action to do something where the outcome isn’t known, where it could be dangerous or <em>gasp</em> they might even fail, or do they shy away from that?</p>

<p>What would be particularly interesting is to see if with kids like Amy Chua’s kids, what percentage of them ever become entrepeneurs, willing to take a gamble on things, risk takers, etc? I would be willing to speculate that a very high percentage of kids raised like this won’t have the self confidence to jump out on a limb like this, whether it be at work or as an entrepeneur. </p>

<p>Based on my own experience over the years, I have met people whose childhoods were like this, and I can tell you that many of them were people who in their work life were known for hanging back, who when meetings happened or when decisions had to be made, shied away from stepping up and disagreeing with what was being said if they felt it was wrong, who were afraid to trust their own instincts and take that leap…how can you gain self confidence in your own decision making when you were never allowed to make any real choices? Sorry, choosing between the violin or piano is not a choice nor are other ‘choices’ on this path, since the choices themselves are proscribed (reminds me of an election in a communist country where there are 2 slots and 2 candidates, and you can choose which candidate gets which slot, but the 2 slots are identical). </p>

<p>I also have seen this in music with the kids whose parents were just like Chua, who guided the whole thing, pushed them, they got into high level music schools, and then got out there in the ‘real world’ and really hit a brick wall, because they didn’t really know what to do or make decisions (and in music these days, even with soloists, there isn’t the nanny state that once existed).</p>

<p>calmom, I could not agree more. You have put this so well!</p>

<p>musicprnt – amen! </p>

<p>I can chuckle about it now, but I still remember how frustrating I found it when my mom repeatedly tried to push me to become a stockbroker, because that was *her<a href=“unfulfilled”>/i</a> dream. I had no math aptitude, no finance aptitude, and absolutely no interest in Wall Street. I used to think, “Geez, mom, how can you know me so little?” She was a good, loving mom, but talk about control-freaky!</p>

<p>Musicprnt’s post #1478 really spells out a major message worth knowing - please read.</p>

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<p>I feel so bad for kids whose parents are so close-minded that they force them to play the piano/classical instrument rather than some non-classical instrument or another activity. </p>

<p>Heard so many horrific accounts from boomer-aged guitarists about how their parents stuck them on the piano, violin, clarinet, etc when they’d rather be playing drums, upright/electric bass, acoustic/electric guitar, etc. While they now are able to enjoy their preferred instruments to their heart’s content…most seemed to have been scarred by the experience…especially when their parents forced them to play music that didn’t move them or worse, seethingly hated.</p>

<p>This is a quote from an article in the movie section about the “Black Swan” (written by a dance critic), that I thought was enlightening, especially since many defending Chua’s idea that everything is a competition, dog eat dog, etc:</p>

<p>“Margot Fonteyn. In her 1975 “Autobiography” that most reasonable of superstar ballerinas emphasized the crucial distinction between taking work seriously (“imperative”) and taking oneself seriously (“disastrous”)”</p>

<p>The problem with the Chua method is it falls into the latter category with almost everything, she is teaching her kids that everything they do resolves around themselves, glorifying themselves (what is “being #1” after all, other then saying "I am the best, na na you are not), it is taking themselves seriously rather then what they are doing. Thus, in music, you have Chua parents who push their kids into ‘appropriate’ instruments, push them to practice long hours, achieve technical mastery,win competitions, yet I can guarantee you there is little or no respect for the music itself, in being a great musician to glorify the music, rather it is to be the “#1” pianist or violinist as based on what piece they are playing (more difficult=better), winning competitions, and it is about “me=#1”. It is quite literally taking themselves seriously and not the music. </p>

<p>Likewise, it is reading ‘great novels’, not because they are works of art written by someone to tell a story and open the reader up to whatever the author wants, it is about showing how smart and clever the person is for having read them (friend of mine has a lot of fun with people like that, very easy to take their legs out in a conversation since they brag about having read X, Y and Z, but don’t know much beyond the cliff note level in terms of the book or author). </p>

<p>It is totally brass-ackwards when the seriousness is the person, not the thing being done, it drives a process where life is simply things to glorify oneself, rather then really appreciate them, and in the end it isn’t a great lesson to learn, because ultimately IMO a lot of it ends up as a vacant thing someone did, rather then being something they can appreciate or really understand. In music, it is easy to see, the kids who are playing music because they love it talk about the music they have played or going to play, talk about the experience of playing, the joy of learning about the music and the composer and so forth, the kids raised like Chua brag about the competitions they have entered, they brag about how they are playing Paganini x and the Sibelius concerto, only understanding those are at X level in the repertoire, rather then important pieces of music (well, I would give you an argument about paganini, but that is me:). Musical kids are in awe of the music, not as a technical accomplishment to please judges on a jury or other people, but rather as something they get the honor to play. </p>

<p>Chua’s daughter may have played Carnegie Hall (which is not that big a deal, all you need is to pay the rental and you can rent out the main stage or Weill/Zankel, and often you see minor league music competitions, little local orchestras and such rent it out, and then the student proudly proclaiming how they won a major competition and got to play at Carnegie Hall, or other’s parents are rich enough to rent out the recital halls, and then brag as if they were invited to play there because they were so great). The point about Carnegie Hall is not playing there per se, but rather in playing there because you are part of a great musical experience, big difference…</p>

<p>musicprnt - I think maybe you should write a book.</p>

<p>Just a note (about ballet, not Chua):</p>

<p>I haven’t seen the movie “Black Swan” – but the premise of two dancers competing for a single casting in the dual role of Odette/Odille in a professional company is unrealistic. Typically lead roles will be multiple cast, with the principal dancers shifting roles on different performances. Odette/Odille may or may not be danced by the same person for a given performance. Here’s an example of an announcement of ABT’s 2010 casting for a series of performances in Chicago – note that there are 6 different dancers cast in the role over 7 different performances:

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The principal roles of Odette/Odile and Prince Siegfried in Swan Lake will be danced in Chicago Thursday-Sunday, April 15-18 by: Paloma Herrera and Ethan Stiefel (Opening Night, Thursday, April 15 at 7:30 p.m.); Michele Wiles and Cory Stearns (in his debut as Prince Siegfried, Friday, April 16 at 2:00 p.m.); Gillian Murphy and Jose Manuel Carre</p>

<p>Multiple people could be cast for the same role, perform same number of performances, but there will always be the Sun Matinee vs Sat night performance. Even at a small company, they would always have multiple dancers cast for the same role just in case. At a tender age of 8, D1 could tell me which performance was more important at their recitals. No different than sports, you have your starters, and you have the backups. Kids all know it. I just acknowledge it with my kid, and that’s why they could be so open about their feelings with me, because I understand where they are coming from. I do not discount their feelings.</p>

<p>I understand their feelings, but I think that parents need to also help their kids recognize the value of being part of a group effort, of taking pride in their own efforts whether recognized or not, of being able to sincerely and genuinely appreciate and encourage the accomplishments of team-mates or fellow members of their group endeavor, and of also understanding that the “starring” role is not always the best or most appropriate for their own individual talents. That’s part of the benefit of participating in team sports or performing arts. </p>

<p>Parents also need to help their kids aim for realistic goals, including being realistic about their own kid’s ability and performance. No one likes a stage mom, and the appalling thing that I noticed over the years was that the moms who were constantly pushing to try to get their kids placed in the most advanced dance group or featured in a starring role often were parents of kids who simply were not particularly good dancers. I felt sorry for those kids, because it’s pretty obvious to everyone which kids in a group are the most able. I think the overbearing moms often created social barriers for their kids – as the other kids also know very well when they have lost a game or group competition because some kid who shouldn’t have been playing a particular position/ occupying a certain role in the first place messes up.</p>

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<p>Nicely said.</p>