Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother - new book about Chinese parenting

[alh]

<p>

Will they have the courage in a situation that demands action to do something where the outcome isn’t known, where it could be dangerous or <em>gasp</em> they might even fail, or do they shy away from that?</p>

<p>What would be particularly interesting is to see if with kids like Amy Chua’s kids, what percentage of them ever become entrepeneurs, willing to take a gamble on things, risk takers, etc? I would be willing to speculate that a very high percentage of kids raised like this won’t have the self confidence to jump out on a limb like this, whether it be at work or as an entrepeneur.

</p>

<p>^^Yes.</p>

<p>I’m jumping into this pretty fascinating discussion after trying valiantly to keep up. I am not sure Chua is abusive, am extremely supportive of widely varying individual parental styles, but don’t feel her methods are going to be very effective in achieving the result I presume she is after: maximizing her children’s potential. When intelligent and talented children with almost unlimited potential are taught to learn and achieve only for gold stars and that outside validation is essential, it is very limiting imho. If we teach them to value the process of educating themselves, and give them the tools and opportunities to be as self-directed as possible, I believe there is a much greater chance they will realize their potential. And that some may change the way we understand the world and/or significantly improve the world for generations to come.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>calmom - there is not one way of parenting. Just for the record, I rarely went to my kids’ classes, but went to every rehearsal to help out. My kids never wanted me to speak with their teachers, even on occasions when they came home in tears. When D1 was looking for an internship, I could have helped out, but she didn’t want me involved. I believe I have raised 2 kids with a lot of confidence in themselves and very well liked by their peers. I did it, not with Chua or anyone on this thread’s method.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>I don’t think anyone has said / suggested that there is or should be only one model of parenting; rather, we’re reacting to Chua’s as an example of a parenting model most of us don’t particularly think is very good. </p>

<p>I think Chua’s method far overstates the extent to which smarts alone are what it takes to compete in the business world. I know for my junior employees, it’s much less about “technical” / book smarts and more about things such as initiative, teamwork, etc.</p>

[alh]

<p>

I must study politics and war, that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy, natural history and naval architecture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, tapestry, and porcelain.

</p>

<p>John Adams quotes (American 2nd US President (1797-1801), 1735-1826)</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>“Chua’s daughter may have played Carnegie Hall (which is not that big a deal, all you need is to pay the rental and you can rent out the main stage or Weill/Zankel, and often you see minor league music competitions, little local orchestras and such rent it out, and then the student proudly proclaiming how they won a major competition and got to play at Carnegie Hall,”</p>

<p>My DD sang at Carnegie Hall, her HS chorus was in some multi chorus thing. There were not many folks in the seats, I am afraid.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>I just want to finish my thoughts on what I started on my previous post (my car was waiting for me downstairs, and I was running late in getting to work, now I am at work, I could waste more time on CC).</p>

<p>Lets assume Chua was exaggerating on how long she made her kid sit at the piano to master a piano piece, lets assume it was more like few hours, which is what my kids have done with their ballet. I think kids become a lot more confident in themselves when they know they could master something by putting work into it. </p>

<p>My parenting method philosophy is probably closer to Chua´s, but not to the extreme. In my kids´case, D1 is very good in math, but not so much in writing. But she still received As in Honors and AP English/literature in high school (she did it by writing and re-writing her papers). It is the opposite with D2, great writer, but struggles with math/science, and like her sister, she still gets her As in those hard subjects. The way they have gotten those As was to put in more work than others in their weaker subjects. Both of them are good dancers, but they don´t have perfect feet or perfect body for a ballerina. D2 is a bad test taker, but she needed certain target scores in order to get into colleges she wants to go to. She gave up her recent winter break by doing SATs 4 to 5 hours a day, and she went up 200 points on her scores in Jan.</p>

<p>People wonder how kids like mine would turn out some day - her friends in high school have said that D1 would become “girl gone wild” once she got into college, and some parents have thought that they would stop working or not have enough confidence once we are not around to do the pushing. </p>

<p>I think my kids are intelligent risk takers. What I mean is that they are well aware of their capabilities (they know their strong and weak points), but they have also overcome those weak points by working hard. When they are given a difficult task/challenge, instead of backing away from it because fear of failure, they have enough confidence to think, “if I couldn´t do it then most likely other people couldn´t do it either.” With that kind of thinking, D1 has no problem in taking on projects she has never done before, and asking for help when she doesn´t understand something.</p>

<p>D1 told me this story when she was an intern this past summer. A senior equity derivative quant guy gave D1 a spreadsheet he has been working on for a while(a model to show correlation of different stocks with certain variables). He said it wasn´t giving him the result he expected, and wanted D1 to check it to see if she could improve on it. D1 knew nothing about equities because she was a math major, not a finance major. Instead of panicking, she thought to herself, “I know math, I know stats, if I couldn´t figure it out, most likely other interns wouldn´t be able to do it either.” With that mind set she calmed herself. She then asked people around her desk for help, she got on the internet to find some answers (formulas), by the end of day she was able to go over with the guy what her thinking was and some “adjustments” she recommended for the spreadsheet (purely from a mathematician point of view). Of course, D1 didn´t solve the guy´s problem, but she sounded intelligent enough that the guy was willing to work with D1 through her rotation, and she learned much from him.</p>

<p>I am offering a different point of view on what happens when kids are raised to work hard (or be pushed) to over come obstacles, instead of just walking away. It empowers them and it gives them confidence. To be a risk taker, one must have confidence. Whenever my kids have called me up(whine really) about difficulty of a new skill they must master, or afraid of new venture, I always reminded them of how they have overcome some difficult hurdles growing up, and most importantly, my faith in them.</p>

<p>In my view, the flip side of allowing kids to give up and not continue with a new skill (maybe it be art, music, academic) whenever they couldn´t do it initially, the message is “I don´t have faith in you to reach your goal.” </p>

<p>My parenting style is differnt than some people´s, but not any less valid or productive.</p>

[QuantMech]

<p>The discussion about music, soloists, and competitions reminded me of the book “Teaching Genius” about Dorothy DeLay, one of “history’s great violin pedagogues,” who taught Itzhak Perlman, Midori, and Sarah Chang, among others–the list of her students who are professionally managed concert artists or faculty members in conservatories or universities ran to 7/12 pages in the book (as of mid-1999).</p>

<p>If you have the book, or can find an excerpt on Amazon, pages 76 and 77 are interesting.</p>

<p>Shortly after that, there are comments about misguided parents, and the effects on their children. (The students’ names have been changed, and sometimes multiple students are made into a single-student composite.) </p>

<p>“Eight-year-old Philip’s parents, for example, have, much against DeLay’s advice, drilled him into learning the Beethoven Violin Concerto, a feat akin to making him memorize the role of Hamlet. The boy is note perfect but now plays like a little automaton.”</p>

<p>Then there is a girl who is described as “utterly expressionless and seems to be on automatic pilot.” DeLay asks her how many hours she practices (this must be per day). The girl replies, “Four. One hour on each string, shifting to second position.” Delay answers “without a hint of irony” “Wow. You will be a fabulous shifter.”</p>

<p>There is a student to whom she suggests Suzuki pieces for her upcoming exam. The parents are not happy, because these pieces have no prestige. There is the student earnestly and without emotion playing Sarasate’s Fantasy on Bizet’s Carmen, whose knowledge of “gypsies” seems to be limited to the statement that they have no jobs.</p>

<p>Then there is Yura Lee (real name, in this case–she was about 10 at the time). Her mother was with her for the lesson, but took no notes, had no tape recorder, and didn’t act anxious. She acted “like a member of the audience rather than an overinvested task master . . . As a result, Yura has not picked up fears the way some children do with a critical parent.” In this case, the rest is history.</p>

[QuantMech]

<p>Forgot to add: The book is by Barbara Lourie Sand, who spent close to ten years observing DeLay working with her students.</p>

[alh]

<p>

In my view, the flip side of allowing kids to give up and not continue with a new skill (maybe it be art, music, academic) whenever they couldn´t do it initially, the message is "I don´t have faith in you to reach your goal.

</p>

<p>I definitely do not think parenting is one-size-fits-all, even for children in the same family, and find the discussion of different styles fascinating. My goal was to provide opportunities for the child to explore as many interests as possible at an early age and then provide support - and transportation – for the pursuits the child found worthwhile. It really didn’t matter to me what they did, as long as they did something. Of course, we were the family without computer and video games, etc in the home. The choice was between a more or less “healthy” variety of activities, just as a toddler might be given a choice between various vegetables. And they had the opportunity to spend time with many adults joyously engaged in various fields of endeavor. I do not discount modeling. </p>

<p>In my experience, children who are allowed the opportunity to pursue their passions will spend untold hours in “practice” without parental involvement. They may even have to be forced to go to bed. If they spend time figuring out how to do things, any kind of things, on their own… they will have the confidence oldfort describes that carries over to other areas of endeavor.</p>

<p>Whose goal? What if we see our child has huge talent in an area and isn’t interested? Is it our responsibility to insist they continue, to force them to achieve in that area? At what point do they get to say they just aren’t that into it? Do we allow them to pursue an activity that they enjoy but at which they will never excel, at the very highest levels, instead? At what age does the child get to pick?</p>

<p>Since I didn’t want my kids coming back as adults and telling me how I had screwed up their lives, I pretty much let them pick from age eight or so as soon as the 3 R’s were mastered and they knew how to use a library.</p>

<p>Quantmech: nice post!</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>“I am offering a different point of view on what happens when kids are raised to work hard (or be pushed) to over come obstacles, instead of just walking away.”</p>

<p>My DD, when she was entering 7th grade, had the opportunity to jump to Algebra 1, and be two years ahead in math. She was reluctant. WE were reluctant, for a bunch of reasons. HER FRIENDS encouraged her - “___, you can do it” (and she did) What we have found is that the urge to overcome, to the extent it comes from outside the child at all, must come from peers, teachers, - a range of others - NOT exclusively or even primarily from us, her parents.</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>above post, interesting</p>

<p>The irony of someone sacrificing sleepovers, social life, submitting to parental dictates, structure, authority - in order to learn to play, say, the music to Wagner’s Ring Cycle - its too rich. </p>

<p>I will need to contemplate that.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>Whenever our kids have doubts about anything, they come to us (even now) because we have always been their biggest cheerleaders. When their friends have told them something was too hard, when their teachers have told them it wasn´t achievable (D1´s AP physics teacher told her that no girl has given gotten an A in his class), we were their biggest fans. </p>

<p>I have posted quite a few times about how close I am with D1 (and with D2 now that she is older). I believe it is because she absolutely believes that I always have her best of interest at heart, in turn, she “allows” me to advise her even now. I don´t know if Chua has similar relationship with her daughters, but I don´t think I would be surprised.</p>

<p>A flip side of it, again.</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>"Whenever our kids have doubts about anything, they come to us (even now) because we have always been their biggest cheerleaders. When their friends have told them something was too hard, when their teachers have told them it wasn´t achievable (D1´s AP physics teacher told her that no girl has given gotten an A in his class), we were their biggest fans. "</p>

<p>Our DD knows WE are her biggest fans, and that we support her in what she does and tries to do - and that she ALSO has our love and support if she makes a well reasoned decision to forego an activity or class. When she asks what she should do - which she often does - we lay out the positives and negatives, the costs and the benefits, in as rational, calm, pragmatic way as we can. And we know she will take what we say into account, but she will not always make the same decision we would - and she often does her own research and analysis, whether its looking something up, or talking with her peers or with other adults. She is now half a world away, and we are very happy to see that she can make her own decisions on the ground there now, and that she appears to do so using values we have spent years trying to inculcate.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Lets assume Chua was exaggerating on how long she made her kid sit at the piano to master a piano piece, lets assume it was more like few hours, which is what my kids have done with their ballet. I think kids become a lot more confident in themselves when they know they could master something by putting work into it.

</p>

<p>But she wasn’t exaggerating, for dramatic effect or otherwise, oldfort. That’s the point. We are not talking about “usual” parenting directives (you must complete your homework and take out the trash before you watch TV or go out with your friends). She was deadly serious about making a 7 yo skip dinner and stay up late to master a piece – and it wasn’t as though Carnegie Hall was tomorrow, this was simply a piece the girl was learning in the course of her lessons. </p>

<p>

I am offering a different point of view on what happens when kids are raised to work hard (or be pushed) to over come obstacles, instead of just walking away.

</p>

<p>Not parenting the Chua way isn’t the equivalent of not overcoming obstacles / just walking away, though. That’s what is being missed – there are plenty of ways to instill work ethic, don’t give up, give it another shot, you can do it – without the harshness and extreme methods of Chua. I think it’s a straw man to suggest that the alternative to Chua’s way is “when the tough get going, shrug and say oh well.” Your daughter’s response to her situation sounds great; but I have no doubt that many other parenting styles could result in the same self-confidence, let-me-figure-it-out approach that she has.</p>

[alh]

<p>

The irony of someone sacrificing sleepovers, social life, submitting to parental dictates, structure, authority - in order to learn to play, say, the music to Wagner’s Ring Cycle - its too rich.</p>

<p>I will need to contemplate that.

</p>

<p>I personally am not bothered with parents forbidding sleepovers in favor of, perhaps, more worthwhile activities. I am bothered with requiring the time needed to learn the Ring Cycle if that particular child would be better served: writing a novel, creating an original piece of art, experimenting in the garage, practicing a sport, learning ancient languages, memorizing Shakespeare, reading history, etc. IMHO childhood is a pretty limited time and it shouldn’t be wasted. I am not always sure as parents we understand what will be most useful to our children in their future lives. Maybe I am the only parent who couldn’t have predicted all my children’s future careers at an early age.</p>

<p>this is a post from a parent who has no well-rounded children :)</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>Are you familiar with the subject matter of the ring cycle? With Wagners approach to life?</p>

[CommonIntuition]

<p>I’ve only heard of the book, but I found this hilarious spoof article on Huff Post:</p>

<p><a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost;
i<em>b</em>812876.html</p>

[oldfort]

<p>

but I have no doubt that many other parenting styles could result in the same self-confidence

</p>

<p>That has been my whole point through out this thread. There are many ways. Even though I think my way has resulted in raising 2 pretty good kids, I am not too quick to say my way would have been appropriate for different kids. My take from many posters on this thread is the “holier than thou” attitude about their parenting skills. We have posters say things like, “A parent needs to do XXX in order for their kids to turn out like YYY.” Really? Who made you an expert? The only thing any of us could offer is how we have done it, and who really knows if any of our kids wouldn´t need to spend $$$ on psychotherapy someday.</p>

[Brooklynborndad]

<p>"We have posters say things like, “A parent needs to do XXX in order for their kids to turn out like YYY.” "</p>

<p>fair enough - every family and every kid is different. I am not sure I would toss out EVERY study that indicates some connection of parenting choices with outcomes, though. (no, I dont have any handy to link to right now) </p>

<p>A fortiori, I would not exclude that some of the corner solutions will have VERY deleterious results for CERTAIN kids. As an example at the opposite end we know some “unschool” oriented homeschoolers - IE 100% child led, let them do almost whatever they want, whenever they want. We know one child who had that education and is now at a USNWR top 25 university (she was a VORACIOUS reader and natural intellectual) we also know of one with that education who now works at a bicycle repair shop. </p>

<p>I think you can imagine that the Chua approach, while it might work for just the right kid, could be very deleterious for many.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

In my view, the flip side of allowing kids to give up and not continue with a new skill (maybe it be art, music, academic) whenever they couldn´t do it initially, the message is “I don´t have faith in you to reach your goal.”

</p>

<p>That message never would have crossed my mind. Life offers so many opportunities to do so many things - why waste your precious time on an activity once you determine you don’t have the aptitude for it? It is one thing if the activity is an academic subject like math or English, which you have no choice in the matter taking; then you might as well put your time and heart into it and do your best. But why waste hours and days of your youth swimming lap after lap in the pool once you’ve determined you don’t have the body type or disposition to excel, especially when so many other interests are beckoning?</p>

<p>My S absolutely hated piano, so I let him choose the instrument - guitar (horrors) - and he practiced and practiced it without me saying a word (as I said earlier, I was sick of the nagging with my 3rd child, so I got lax - oops). In 4 years he was as good as his instructor so quit lessons and can play anything he wants for pure pleasure. Kids who love something really will continue it on their own - all they need is family support and encouragement ($$ helps too).</p>