<p>Democracy, the rule of the people, is not at all incompatible with military service. If the people decide that as a group they wish to undergo mandatory military service, that is not incompatible with democracy. It is incompatible with a democracy operated on libertarian principles, but that is not the same thing.</p>
<p>Even in a liberal democracy, the only real requirement regarding the military is that it be under civilian control.</p>
<p>You really, really, really need to get your political theory sorted out.</p>
<p>It’s not necessarily incompatible if it’s VOLUNTARY. It becomes incompatible when it’s INVOLUNTARY. Any coerced military service deprives an individual or their right to life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness. Those rights are the foundations of a liberal democracy. Coerced military service obliterates those foundations. Any country that has signed the UN’s Charter on Human Rights, I believe, should immediately and expediently abolish conscription right this second, and immediately and expediently pay restitution to all effected for the egregious wrong done to them.</p>
<p>I don’t oppose military service. I would never do it, but I don’t oppose it. If someone wants to go join the military OF THEIR OWN WILL AND VOLITION, I’m okay with it. I’m NOT okay with the government trying to FORCE it on people AGAINST their will and volition. In other words, I only oppose INVOLUNTARY military service, which I vehemently despise and oppose.</p>
<p>It’s my political beliefs. There’s not a thing you can tell me to do about it. I’m free to believe what I want.</p>
<p>There’s a saying, maybe you’re heard of it, </p>
<p>“All it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing and say “it’s life.””</p>
<p>Going back to the topic, I believe Berkeley has the right to call the marines unwanted and unwelcome intruders. And I believe enlisting is involuntary when one doesn’t COMPLETELY AND FULLY understand ALL of the terms of enlistment. Many don’t, so I consider many in the military to be there involuntarily.</p>
<p>The Supreme Court has decided that the Constitution does not make the draft illegal in any way. There is an allowance for conscience to do alternative service. So your view of the law carries ZERO weight. Maybe you’ll learn that in law school.</p>
<p>For all that I disagree with you on other points I do agree with you to a point.</p>
<p>First, Berkeley has the right to select who they want in their town.</p>
<p>Second, many enlisted people don’t get the picture when they sign papers (it’s called buyers remorse)</p>
<p>Now where we part ways:</p>
<p>First, many people understand what they are signing up for, and if they don’t they will learn quickly</p>
<p>Second, how are the Marines intruders?</p>
<p>Third, why is it that Pink Flag is allowed to picket in a parking space? Not on the sidewalk, not in the street, but only 1 parking space in front of the office</p>
<p>Fourth, this office is really not for enlisted, but for Officer Recruitment. If you are in college at Berkeley, I would believe they are aware of what they are doing.</p>
<p>Finally, Berkeley’s true problem is they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Constituents and losing funding from the state.</p>
<p>So it’s my job to shut up and look convinced? If I see something that I don’t like, I’m speaking up. Why? I’m entitled to. If you don’t like it, too bad.</p>
<p>As for how I know, there’s a law forcing them to do it. Whether they want to or not is immaterial. The coercion by law is still there.</p>
<p>Good thing we have people who CHOOSE WILLINGLY to fight for America’s rights. Without them , you’d have NONE!!!</p>
<p>Back to the issue with Berkeley. They are more than free to express their disagreement with the War in Iraq. They are not FREE to infringe upon the daily operations of a Federal office. Also, the United States Congress is more than free to appropriate money where they see necessary. If that means taking a couple million away from the city of Berkeley and giving it to the United States Marine Corps, I say H*** YEAH!</p>
<p>It is your job to keep saying your opinions, that is what our country is about. It is about freedom. Going back to the original topic. Pink Flag has a right to protest, but Berkeley is taking a stance by allowing them and only them to receive a pemit for the parking space every Wed. and not allowing anyone else to receive a permit for any other day, and not pre-booking it in advance. In other words the city is not allowing everyone to freedom of speech</p>
<p>As someone who lives essentially across the street from the recruiting office in question, I have to disagree that Code Pink is allowed to protest only in a parking space. The fact of the matter is that they park their very highly decorated truck in that space. Then, every Wednesday (and for a week, leading up to the primaries), they crowd the sidewalk in front of the office and take up almost an entire lane of traffic protesting. </p>
<p>I’m extremely upset with the liberties the council took in passing their statement, their grudging half-retraction, and the punishment the federal government is considering for the city as a whole. </p>
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<p>That’s almost exactly how I felt when I first read that article. </p>
<p>I’m generally disgruntled with the whole thing, but I don’t feel like laying it out where it can get jumped on by the political theorists haunting this thread.</p>
<p>Re: military recruiters</p>
<p>My maternal grandfather was a colonel in the Air Force, and my father served as a Marine during Vietnam, and the military has been a shockingly integral part of my upbringing. In high school, I strongly considered applying for the Academies. I took the ASVAB sophomore year and scored very highly on it. I decided to speak with the Army recruiter assigned to my high school to see what they had to say for themselves.</p>
<p>The experience completely turned me off of joining the military.</p>
<p>He was absolutely relentless. Even after I let him know that I was not interested, he stopped me in the hall every time he saw me (in high school), called me once every month or so to see what my options were, and was infinitely adaptable to my reasons (“You’re going to college? You know, we have an ROTC program there…” “You’re in college? Congratulations. Keep us in mind…” and so on). I COULD NOT get him to stop calling me, no matter how firmly and how often I told him I did not want to hear from him anymore. The calls finally stopped after I asked my dad what I could do and he yelled at the guy for harassing me. </p>
<p>This is in addition to the serious stretching of the truth the recruiter used to try and make enlisting in the Army seem sweeter. He used everything from “your scores are high enough you’d be guaranteed your job of choice” to “I know paying for college is rough on a family like yours, the military could really help put you through painlessly,” trying to manipulate all at once my insecurities, my indecision regarding my major, my concern over family finances, and my interest in travel. It made me extremely uncomfortable, and I can see how easily it would sway some of my peers. Keep in mind, I was 16 when all of this started.</p>
<p>I just hope your screen name of “Future-NYU-Student” is accurate. Because you sure have a lot of learning to do. I have a lot of respect for NYU as a school. Maybe they will teach you about the constitution and our laws; as well as some others around the world. Then maybe you will be able to engage in such conversations with some understanding instead of with just emotions that were probably influenced by other people’s emotions instead of facts.</p>
<p>Either way, you have every right in our country to speak out and express yourself. That is the #1 goal and purpose that each and every one of those military members chose to be in the military for. The very first thing they do; or else they are asked to leave and go home; is to take an oath; to protect and defend the constitution of the united states against all enemies foreign and domestic. So, that is why you have the right to say whatever you want. I do suggest however that you make that “Future” part of your screen name sooner if possible. You really do need to understand what you are talking about. Especially when it comes to military service in this and other countries. But then, you probably assume that most countries live by the same exact constitution and bill of rights that we have. Many people think they do. They apply our morals, values, laws, rights, etc… to other cultures. Anyway, good luck in your education. You’ll need it if you want to continue debating and expressing your opinions.</p>
<p>P.S. The federal government has every right to withhold money from that community. If the community is “Prejudice” against anyone, and openly discriminates, they should be punished. I would feel the same way if they were discriminating against blacks, hispanics, gays, jews, christians, muslims, disabled, etc… To discriminate against the military is the same thing. It can’t be rationalized in any way. A recruiting office is required to answer questions and assist those interested. Might as well say that low income housing is great; just NOT in my neighborhood.</p>
<p>Guys, I’ll have to look at my sources again, but I’ve read these meals that could potentially be cut off funding from… we’re talking gourmet meals that the kids aren’t paying anything for at all.</p>
<p>Also I saw somewhere that they want an ordinance that would put military recruiting offices in the same boat as adult pornography stores…</p>
<p>“I’ll ask you nicely, stop calling me. One more call, and I’m reporting you to your superiors, the police, the district attorney’s office, and a superior court judge for stalking. I’ll get a restraining order if I have to. I’m not kidding.” </p>
<p>“I know paying for college is rough for your family.” Just respond, “No it’s not, we have a million dollars sitting in a college fund. I’ll just write checks from it.” Like they can actually verify that.</p>
<p>I’ll just stop talking about the whole conscription thing. The issue just makes me angry. And by the way, I am at NYU. But I keep my politics private. You and I think differently. The pledge of Allegiance I guess means something to you; it doesn’t mean anything to me. It’s just words. The flag, again, doesn’t mean anything to me. Your loyalties lie in this country, my loyalties lie in me. I’ve explained why it makes me angry over and over again. I’m not going to anymore.</p>
<p>Oh, now I’m not allowed to look out for my own interests? I thought that was what capitalism was about. Everyone’s shamelessly selfish, and acts selfishly, I just choose to do so openly and notoriously. I act solely in my own interests, I am NOT shameful about it, and I do so openly and notoriously for all to hear. At least I’m honest with myself and others.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but I kind of need to be an ******* to protect myself from getting screwed around in this world.</p>
<p>You have the right to protect yourself, that is fine.</p>
<p>You also have injected your political beliefs by what you have posted here.</p>
<p>I am kind of curious at how someone so young is so cynical about the world? Why you feel that you need to protect yourself against the world.</p>
<p>If you take a look around, people are genuinely good. I am sure I am old enough to be your mother and I can say that the world has never screwed me over. </p>
<p>I say this with good intention, you might see it in a different light, but it is not meant to be spiteful, mean or hurtful. You have made a decision to “act solely in my interest”, I hope you don’t get married or have children with that belief. When and if you find a love of your life and have children, your interest will take a back seat to theirs. Children, especially babies are demanding and selfish (that is how they survive…feed me, change me) it will no longer be about you. Children also have a great ability to determine what they want and go after it with or without your support. It is called youthful indiscretion. </p>
<p>I applaud that you are being honest, I just actually feel sorry for you. I think you are missing the greatest gift of life with all your bravado. That gift is the world is good, people are good…not everyone is out there trying to hurt people, but I will stay out of your way because I am sure you will screw me so that I can’t screw you.</p>
<p>Future; I think what you are misunderstanding is that the principles and norms that you believe life is all about is not what the whole world believes. It would be nice if the entire world lived by the principles that our constitution affords us. I think you don’t understand that the things you complain about are the same things that allow you to complain. It’s that loyalty in country, flag, military, etc… that allows you to complain. There are plenty of countries and people around the world that don’t have the rights that your do, nor do they believe the way you do.</p>
<p>I would be curious to know how you would “Run things” if you were in charge. How would you handle the military? How would you protect the constitution so that people don’t misuse the constitution and bill of rights finding loop holes in order to screw others over. What about other countries who don’t live by the same constitution and principles; how do you deal with them? How would you provide a military to protect against those that wish to conquer or do harm to us or allies?</p>
<p>The point is; without some people having loyalty to something larger than themselves, no one would step up to take the lead to protect the common good. Why would anyone become a police officer? Why would someone become a fireman? Why join the military? The hardest thing that military members have to live with is defending the rights of people; such as free speech; to say anything they want no matter how much they disagree. So when someone like you speaks as though the military is evil and that loyalty to country is wrong, it’s that same military and loyalty that ALLOWS you to say those things. In other words, don’t protest the price of oil or that you believe the military is only working in the middle east for oil; and then drive a suburban. Don’t support gun control laws for honest citizens and then complain when your house is broken into or you are mugged on the street and you can’t defend yourself. Don’t complain about illegal immigration and the economy and at the same time believe we should welcome our illegal immigrants and provide all the rights and services that our citizens have. You can’t complain about the principles behind the very thing that gives you the right to complain.</p>