<p>
</p>
<p>Future is saying, “common good my a**. I’m in it for ME!”
If everyone felt that way, we’d all surely be screwed! It’s hard to respect such a staggering level of selfishness and immaturity.</p>
<p>No one’s going to look out for me, so that becomes my job. It’s my job to protect my interests on a material and legal level, no one else is going to to it. That’s the truth. If that sounds cynical, so be it. At least I’m not lying to myself that I give a damn about the “common good”. At least I won’t get screwed over by those who want so badly to screw people over. As far as people who become police officers or join the military, that warm and fuzzy feeling you get when you help others IS a self-interest. Don’t even pretend it’s not. They do it because it makes THEM feel good. There is not a SINGLE PERSON on this planet who is completely altruistic. I choose to prioritize my monetary and material interests above the warm and fuzzy feeling interest.</p>
<p>Oh, the side effects of being an econ major.</p>
<p>If this is how you truly feel, I feel sorrow for you and your parents. </p>
<p>I really feel that this is a game you are playing now, because I have never met someone with less emotions as you.</p>
<p>Back to the thread.</p>
<p>I take it you believe that the Marines are the devil incarnate…Berkeley should not have to follow state or federal laws and that we should be able to fight for ourselves and the collective should not matter.</p>
<p>Did I miss anything?</p>
<p>"At least I’m not lying to myself that I give a damn about the “common good”. "</p>
<p>Well, I guess we can be certain that there will be no pro bono work coming from your legal activities.</p>
<p>Good luck in your “life”.</p>
<p>Again, there is pro bono work in the future. But it’s not for the common good, it’s for that warm and fuzzy feeling you get when you help someone else. It’s to make me feel good about helping someone in need, which, in my previous post, I defined as a self-interest. I may seem like I sold my soul, but I still have emotions. I simply set them aside and don’t let them get in the way when I make economic decisions.</p>
<p>I don’t believe the marines are the devil incarnate. I said Berkeley has the right to choose who is welcome or not welcome in their city. That’s their right. You want people to take personal responsibility, and when people do take personal responsibility, you claim they’re selfish. Make up your mind.</p>
<p>
Regardless of whether you realize it or appreciate it (I haven’t read all the posts here), there ARE people looking out for you - police, firefighters, military, judicial system, penal system, legislative system, University security, RAs, and sometimes even the person standing next to you.</p>
<p>
Even if this is true, what difference does it make - they’re still protecting you. There are acts by firefighters, police, and others that go a bit beyond the ‘feel good about themselves’ paradigm - think about some of the first responders on 9/11, firefighters/police every day, secret service who place themselves in front of a bullet on purpose, etc. There are untold stories of everyday citizens who also perform self-sacrificial acts to help others every day.</p>
<p>Try stepping back from the cynicism a bit and considering the full picture.</p>
<p>Furure; you are correct about the feel good theory. (Problem of having psych as my 1st degree). I know, and agree, that no one does anything in life, except one, that isn’t for their own good and feeling. Even when you help the little old lady who fell on the ice or holding the door open for the person in a wheelchair, you do it ultimately to feel good. Because you know that if you didn’t, you’d feel guilty and feel like cr*p. By the way, the one exception is “Ultimate love”. The kind of love that a parent demonstrates to protect their children. Willing to die for them. etc… (No, not every parent, but as long as 1 parent would, it does exist).</p>
<p>Now, as far as the military recruiters in Berkley go. 1st; I never saw where this was a unanimous feeling from the entire city of Berkley. I would venture to say, that unless someone showed me where an overwhelming majority of citizens felt that way, that it was the mayor and a couple of others who did this. Therefor, it’s NOT Berkley having the right. It’s a special interest group NOT having the right to impose such an ordinance. Does Berkley have the right to NOT allow also a Post Office, offices for Immigration, DEA, FBI, or OTHER federal offices? If not, then they are discriminating. If they want to push out a recruiting office, which is federal, then they need to say that they don’t welcome ANY federal agencies. Because ALL federal agencies are paid for and operated by ALL citizens around the world. Instead, what Berkley is trying to say is that a recruiter station is like “Low income housing”. Yes, it is important and we need them, just NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD.</p>
<p>Concerning your selfish attitude, all this Me, Me, and I, I cr*p that you are spewing out could not exist; I repreat, COULD NOT EXIST; if it wasn’t for the police, firemen, military, and others who believe in a common good. Again, you are arguing against the principle that allows you to argue. Don’t you find that a bit ironic. There are countries where you can’t argue or speak bad of the government. You’d be imprisoned. Disagreeing with the government is good. It is encouraged. If you want to see change, that too is good. But to see parts of it, like the military eliminated is ridiculous. That is what is allowing you to argue and disagree. See changes? Sure, that’s great. Big difference.</p>
<p>So, again, what is your suggestion or solution? The truth is; we can’t live the way you want. We can’t all live ONLY looking out for ourselves. We are always going to have disagreements with others. We need police, judicial, etc… to maintain order so we don’t just kill each other. The military is just a larger scale version for international affairs. (That’s why the active military isn’t allowed to do border patrol and other national issues. To prevent the possibility of a military takeover of the country). So, what is your suggestion? In a capitalist society/economy, the norm is when you are “Being taken care of” by some one; when you are young; that you think much more liberal. Peace and love; can’t we all just get along; do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else; etc… As you become independent and have to take care of yourself; pay taxes; work; pay bills; etc… you become more conservative. i.e. Not a big fan of Welfare, securing the borders, unions to protect workers, more politically active, etc… All because now you are having to pay and contribute to the common good of the country. I’m not talking Democrat or Republican, I’m talking Liberal or Conservative. Then when you get older and are dependent again on others; social security, retires, family or someone else assisting you, etc… you go back to the liberal way of thinking. You think more on the liberal way again. Again, this is because you are no longer contributing and see the world from the eyes of someone being taken care of. These are the normal progressions of a capitalist society. This is why the liberals tend to try and attract so many young, old, and poor people while the conservatives try more for the middle aged, working, middle class crowd.</p>
<p>So, how do you suppose we run the country. You didn’t really answer before when I posed this question. You’re a college student aged person. Nothing against that. I wish I was that age again. It’s just that you speak as though you “KNOW” from experience. Well then, what does your experience tell you? How do we handle aggression from other countries? How do we handle aggression and crime within our country? How do we stop uncontrolled immigration that puts burdens on our economy without contributing financially? How then do you pay for all this? You’ve got all these feel good people doing the police, fire, border patrol, military, etc… because it makes them feel good, but you have to pay for it. How does this get done.</p>
<p>I’m not trying to cut you down Future. I admire your passion. I think however you have to look at the big picture. You need to get more educated on HOW things work in the world. You need to learn the reality of life and our country. It’s laws and how they work. If you learn it and understand it, you’ll be able to assimilate into it. Not as a robot. Not as someone being used and abused. But as someone that understands that their contribution does reward them by the contributions of others. Whether the contributions are monetary or labor, that is our culture. That is the culture world wide. Now, whether those contributions are voluntary, mandatory, or a combination of, is what matters.</p>
<p>“As far as national defense goes, I’m paying taxes that partially goes to support the defense infrastructure. There is no reason why I should be forced, against my will, and against my philosophical and political beliefs, to go out and get shot at.”</p>
<p>Oh, I think I’ll pile on here, too. I think the statement above is the crux of the problem with your attitude: it’s profoundly self-centered. You think that because your tax dollars are paying somebody else (the faceless “defense infrastructure”) to protect you, that it’s an outrage that you might be tasked to actually put yourself on the line. But you’re willing to pay somebody else to get shot at for you.</p>
<p>Its called youth, nothing more and nothing less !</p>
<p>" In a 7-to-2 vote, the council said it would no longer send a letter to the local Marine Corps Recruiting Station and Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Conway saying recruiters aren’t welcome in Berkeley.</p>
<p>Instead, the city is now simply stating it’s opposed to the war and the billions spent on it. However, “we recognize the recruiter’s right to locate in our city and the right of others to protest or support their presence,” the council said.</p>
<p>The council also said it supports and respects the men and women of the armed forces."</p>
<p>Apparently there is still some sentiment for depriving Berkeley and UC Berkeley of certain “earmark” funds, including one to pay for Alice Waters’s lunch program.</p>
<p>Mamenyu, I call that not standing up for your belief. They dug this hole; they act like they can just back out of it. I’m still all for redirecting Federeal funds</p>
<p>^ Redirect funds from the CITY of Berkeley…NOT UC Berkeley! They are two separate entities.</p>
<p>UC Berkeley had no part in this charade and should not be punished for the actions of some liberal city council members.</p>
<p>“Plenty of “sketchy” going around on all sides? Your ex not old enough to think for himself without your help?”</p>
<p>WPSON, I overreacted, but the point was that he made the decision of not signing up for the army on his own. If he had really wanted to do it, then I wouldn’t have been able to stop him. Your comment can be used for the other side, being that the “you’re not man enough” comment by the recruiter was uncalled for, and my ex is old enough to make decisions for himself without the recruiter’s help.</p>
<p>nor did the school kids who would benefit from a lunch program have anything to do with the vote. Vindictiveness by congress can go both ways, tit for tat, if you will – there is nothing to gain by vindictiveness, and it is particularly not a good precedent to punish a public university and public schools for the verbal ripostes of part-time city council members.</p>
<p>I’ll tell you what, I’ll let all the feel good people do those kinds of social interest work or whatever you want to call them, and I’ll just cut the checks. Frankly, because I feel I’ve done more than enough when I pay for it, and because I’d suck at those kinds of jobs. Private sector’s definitely my place. I either pay or put myself on the line; I refuse to do both, so pick one. Here’s a check, government. I made my so-called contribution. Now go away and don’t come back, ever.</p>
<p>By the way, just for reference, I don’t expect ANYONE to take care of me when or if I ever retire. I won’t collect social security even if it is available by the time I hit 70 or 80 or whatever age, which it seems like social security’s going bankrupt in the next 50 years or so. Frankly, I don’t expect social security to be around until then. Besides, I’ll be financially wise enough to save up for retirement should I ever choose to retire.</p>
<p>If there’s nothing I learned in econ, I learned this: Assuming people act rationally, people make decisions that help increase their utility, which is to say that EVERYONE acts in their self-interest. According to my micro textbook, altruism IS a self-interest. You know, the warm and fuzzy feeling kind of thing. So I’ll act in my self-interest, you act in yours. That’s all.</p>
<p>Future; your position is quite accurate. People do act on their own behalf. I already mentioned and agreed that no one does anything, except one, that doesn’t somehow benefit themselves. You are also correct that not everyone is cut out to do many of the public service jobs we are talking about. E.g. Police, Fire, EMT, Military, FEMA, etc… It takes a very strong person physically and emotionally. It requires people who are selfless and mature. You’ve admitted; probably quite accurately; that you are incapable of this strength and the qualities needed to do any of these jobs. Good for you for recognizing your limitations.</p>
<p>However, your attitude s*cks. You need to admit that you believe the police, fire, military, and probably every service industry type job, and by nature the people performing these jobs, are beneath you. That you believe that you are better than they are. At least admit you think you are superior.</p>
<p>The truth is; you are a very inexperienced and ignorant person. ignorance isn’t a bad thing. It just means you don’t know. Maybe college will teach you a few things. Then again, there are a lot of people who come out of college and still have no understanding of the “Real World”. We can only hope. </p>
<p>But some day you will discover certain things. 1st; Just because you’ve paid for certain things, doesn’t always mean “you’ve done enough”. Also, eventually you will have the need for someone else to “take care of you”. The only way around this would be if you committed suicide. Finally, your attitude is everything. You are correct that people act in their own self interest. But your attitude, especially towards these people, will determine how they act towards you. Maybe it’s businesses that don’t want to work with/for you or your company. Maybe it’s the waitress who can sense your looking down on her and she spits in your food before giving it to you with that nice smile on her face. Or maybe it’s just neighbors, peers, co-workers, etc… who just don’t want to be around your holier than thou attitude and don’t like being in the presence of such negativity. I’ve been around a lot of people who have become very successful in their lives. They still maintain respect for those around them. Whether they are carpenter, cable tv technician, police officer, military, etc…</p>
<p>But it’s OK. You are young, inexperienced, and ignorant. Fortunately, you still have time to grow up. Who knows. Maybe you’ll graduate from college and wind up being a waiter or working at a fast food restaurant like MANY graduates do prior to finding their dream job. Maybe you’ll come to appreciate how important each of these people and jobs are. Good luck;</p>
<p>It’s typical of very self-centered people to think that everybody else is self-centered as well. I suppose somebody without much experience around people who help with charities and the like might think this. It’s also pretty funny to think that one can understand altruism by reading a microeconomics textbook.</p>
<p>Future, you have clearly and methodically stated your opinions. I respect you for that, but I do have a question for you.</p>
<p>Are you psychic?</p>
<p>My life has taken me on many unexpected roads. You say you will have the money and will need no support from this country…What if we have another great depression? Trust me there won’t be a need for an attorney, nobody will be able to afford one, than what? How will you pay for your bills?</p>
<p>What if your spouse or child gets a life threatening illness, don’t say well my health insurance will pay for it (this is true for the military, but not for corporate). My father was very successful, I am sure you have bought at least one product that he had a patent for. When he was diagnosed with Adult Luekemia, the first thing that U of Penn hospital did was to call the bank and check out his financial situation. He had health insurance, but the hospital knew it was going to be past his cap, and he would be responsible for it. A similiar situation occurred to my Aunt, she had to take a loan on her 2nd home that was pd off.</p>
<p>You do not know what might happen in your future…don’t ever say never…G*d has a very funny sense of humor, and will smite you faster than you can think.</p>
<p>I understand that you think something is below you, let me give your my last scenario based on someone I know. He too thought certain jobs were below him, and looked down on people who held these jobs. He graduated from a very prestigious university (private and very close to ivy). He is now @ 50 divorced and living with his parents. What happened to him? He lost his job, his arrogance to not lowering himself to accept a job that he deemed worthy, ran their family into the poor house (his ex, declared bankruptcy the same day the divorce was final), he still refuses to do so and now must live with his parents. He now is working 3 jobs, and several are of the type that he looked down on…again as I said, never say never! I am sure he thought he would be a millionaire by now. On the other hand, our friend who has squirrelled away his money working as a nurse (OMG he is also a guy…yep, he’s married) will always be able to support his family. People might stop using lawyers, but the nurses, fireman, and military will have a job.
In the end the tortoise always beats the hare</p>
<p>Just trying to get you to see unless you are psychic, all of the best plans may be for nothing</p>
<p>Service industry jobs are NOT beneath me. I’m just not selfless, and would probably suck at working in a public service job.</p>
<p>I haven’t said this here, but I do admire those people who work in public service jobs, because I don’t have the altruism to do it. I consider myself to be a highly dignified person, and one thing I will NEVER resort to or get involved in is office politics. Heck, I don’t even like to get involved in presidential politics. That’s the only never I’ll say here. If that means I won’t make senior partner, then so be it. If being a golden retriever who kisses everyone’s butt is what it takes to be a senior partner at a law firm, I don’t want to be senior partner. I’m going to law school to become a LAWYER, not a salesman.</p>
<p>By the way, I’m atheist, just for the record, so I don’t believe in any higher being.</p>
<p>You don’t sound like you’re going to be a terribly successful person if you don’t like licking boots.</p>
<p>I think you should meet my dad, who refused to kiss his boss’s behind in the military. He now works at a Home Depot as an appliance salesman.</p>