Best Academic Reputation vs. Best Price

Parents Forum
41

So hates it but didn’t apply?

She needs to go where she likes, not you. You liked Pitt….she didn’t…so it’s what she thinks matters. You said she liked Fairfield - if it hits budget, then that’s enough.

Pitt is a more well known name than Delaware but I don’t think it matters. My nephew went to UNLV and all the big firms and regional firms (like BDO) were there.

If she has an accounting degree but more for regular corporate jobs, I don’t think Millersville or Delaware will matter quite honestly. Corporate jobs - there’s no “better jobs’ and today kids find jobs on their own, mostly through the Internet. Cornell, until recently, posted the how kids find jobs and mostly it was social and then company job sites - so think linkedin and indeed.

Less and less companies are going directly to campus and more and more are expanding their breadth.

The world has changed!!

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It’s stunning - the Ole Main - just beautiful - and they have a dairy :slight_smile: But we were there on preview day with thousands.

It’s amazing how long will stand in line for a free cone….not us.

It’s a beautiful school and she will be far from the brightest at PSU - but if she’s using acceptance rate as a barometer, they admit 60%.

btw - there are many studies or articles that note Penn State is one of the most heavily recruited (and by top firms) schools in the country in regards to careers.

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43

Is there a reason why you think the education would be better at Villanova than at a state school? Not offended in any way, just curious.

As I said earlier, if it’s a better fit and she’s happier..that’s a good reason to attend.

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Having trouble with the quote function, but “classmates with poor grades consistently been admitted” to PSU sounds like an excuse. PSU is very competitive to get into these days. Unless your definition of “poor” is 3.67 uw GPA.

I have yet to hear anyone who doesn’t love Pitt. Either as a school or as a hiring manager. Of course the student has to want a more city environment, but I know of very, very few kids who transfer out of there.

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45

I agree. Great school, strong academics, plenty of exceptional students, lots of opportunities, a cool, walkable city, etc.

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46

Blockquote Is there a reason why you think the education would be better at Villanova than at a state school? Not offended in any way, just curious.

I think it’s a better learning environment for undergrads. There are smaller classes and on average, more talented students. Professors are more interested and accessible. I went to a state flagship for grad school and it was decent. I just don’t think there is the same teaching focus for undergrads at the big state schools.

The biggest thing is probably just perception. There are stereotypes that may or may not be fair. The stereotypes of Penn State students aren’t good where I live, but I know there are exceptions. One of my very best friends is a PSU engineering grad. He had a good experience so I am not dead set against it. I know several kids who are there now and they are decent kids but love to party and are really into the football cult. To me, the emphasis on football is a big turnoff.

Lehigh was also one of her favorites and I think it’s a good school. It’s a reach (as is Villanova) and is very expensive too. I haven’t mentioned it as much because I don’t know if it would be her scene socially. We also don’t have a legacy hook so it’s likely a rejection. If she gets in, we’ll give it thought. I also think Bucknell is a good school with a focus on undergraduate teaching. It’s expensive too, but it’s in the running (especially if she got some kind of aid).

I feel like this thread is all over the place, which is my fault. I could have articulated the issue better. I don’t want go offend anyone but if I hear someone went to Bucknell or Lehigh, for example, I assume they are smart and got a good education. I know they aren’t MIT, but I respect them. If I hear they went to Delaware, Pitt, PSU, I assume it’s a crapshoot - they may be really bright or not. Those schools are great for their purpose but there is a wider range of talent. My problem is I don’t know that the difference in perception is worth $200k-$300k more. I am concluding it is not.

We’ll have to talk it over. We have a younger child too so this dilemma will be doubled. If we send her to an expensive school, we’ll have to do it for both. We do have assets but not a lot of liquidity. Most of our money is tied up in retirement accounts and real estate. I want to retire before I die, and I am thinking we should find a college that will cost no more than about $50k per year (or maybe less). I think I will suggest she not apply ED anywhere. She is planning to apply to 9 or 10 schools and see what options she ends up with.

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Blockquote Having trouble with the quote function, but “classmates with poor grades consistently been admitted” to PSU sounds like an excuse. PSU is very competitive to get into these days. Unless your definition of “poor” is 3.67 uw GPA.

Yes, I can’t get the quotes to work. This is my first post and I’m doing it from my phone. I asked for unbiased opinions. I know many PSU students and grads. with the exception of my family member in Schreyer, I have been less than impressed. Other people may have better experiences. I also think there grad programs are better than their undergrad. $35k a year would be nice, but I’d rather pay it to Pitt. Maybe we’ll get lucky and she’ll be offered some aid at one of the private schools. She is applying to 5 of them.

Thanks everyone for the help. I think I am at peace with skipping ED to a reach. While it’s the beat shot at acceptance, committing to $350k+ over 4 years just doesn’t seem worth it with our limited resources.

48

This really depends…but I wish your daughter luck!

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49

If she doesn’t like partying, she should check Lehigh a little more carefully. It’s a fabulous college…but recent students tell us…lots of partying.

Has she looked at Lafayette? It was a parent favorite but our kid didn’t like it.

I do think the Jesuit colleges check a lot of your daughter’s boxes…and are worth checking out.

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50

It is, but I would look into the parties and Greek life.

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51

When I think of schools like Nova, Lehigh and Bucknell, I think of party havens.

Just two years ago there was a list of top 50 party schools within 150 miles of Philly - alphabetically it was

Delaware

Lehigh

Penn

Rutgers

Temple

The top rated (by some) party school in the country is Tulane but I bet you’d think differently about it. Top 50 include U Dayton ( small classes), Penn, USC, Vanderbilt, UVA.

Kids party everywhere. When someone mentions Lehigh, Bucknell, and Nova to me, I think rich kid school. All three are well over half full pay - and Bucknell and Nova overwhelmingly white. Lehigh mostly.

We all, including me, have preconceived notions. I think all three are great. But I do think big money kids are attracted to them - and Tulane and Syracuse and others on the list

You can look at each’s common data set to see class size by range. Section I3

At Lehigh 10% are 50+. At Nova it is far less.

You don’t know about major classes anywhere. My kid went to a 9k regional public, her classes ranged 5-35 based on what she told me. So I’m guessing a small school - a Millersville or TCNJ will look different than Rutgers or PSU.

I know in my life, with an MBA desired for hire, I’ve worked for a U of Phoenix, we had a Vandy MBA working for a W Georgia undergrad and until recently, a Harvard Law working for Fairleigh Dickinson undergrad.

You may be right. We all think differently. But life isn’t black and white like you seem to think.

I will say mine who chose a regional public over top 20 LAC had an incredible education with mentors, dinners with faculty, study abroad included and more. But she was part of a special honors cohort. They’re out there too if you go to a school where you stand out. So you might look for those - Honors type programs or living learning communities, even at smaller schools.

You have left out a few things - unweighted gpa and rigor. What level of classes has she taken in English, math, social science and foreign language?

One concern - just from observation - it seems like in some ways you are running the search and deciding things vs her. Example - you recommended accounting because it will be less limiting. I get it -my kids double with Poli Sci and intl studies scared me but she landed - phew. But I wonder if an LAC will be better for her - where she can explore more freely. What if you find out she loves sociology ? Some schools have business and merit aid - but maybe not accounting. Or others might be easier admits - so a Nova without the heft or price tag.. Marist as an example.

LAC - look at Dickinson as an example of a school that doesn’t offer accounting but business if you choose. Wheaton is Mass is another - without a big sticker

Susquehanna offers accounting, has big merit and you won’t be locked in. Same with Furman, a great name. For religious, how about St Bonaventure, Siena, Manhattan, Scranton, Muhlenberg, Xavier, or Gordon.

Just some things to noodle on.

I appreciate you have established thoughts, right or wrong. We all do. We all think differently but I think your risk reward is spot on - if you spend more, it’s for perceived experience and not outcome.

Schools like Nova, Richmond and Bucknell do well in salary surveys to having large programs in business and engineering. Just a few days ago, the Wall Street Journal put out its top schools. In between #1 Stanford and #3 Yale was Babson. Yep #2 - because all its majors are high paid. Bentley is another and even Bryant in Rhode Island, so you have to take those studies for what they are. PSU is a leader in meteorology as an example - not a high paid field and will have every humanity and social science known to man. So you’re not comparing apples to apples.

But Smeal vs Nova - Smeal (PSU B school) will stand toe to toe. Both great schools.

Good luck.

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52

This is most important - your comfort and strain on finances. And I’ll repeat - there’s no dream. A year or two ago, a student landed at Hamilton - horrid experience and ended up at much lower ranked St Olaf where, per mom’s posts she is thriving. On another thread, an Emory first year (at its Oxford campus) is looking to leave. And others have also mentioned transfers.

It happens everywhere - you put forth your best guess but no one truly knows til u get on campus. A bad roomie, prof, hard class, cliques, bad food, dorn, can’t get into clubs, homesickness - it all happens.

I’d like to know more about the student academically (UW gpa and rigor) but I appreciate the depth of your study and I’m sure she’ll make you proud (and not bankrupt) :slight_smile:

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53

Since Pitt is instate it is indeed a no-brainer to apply there ASAP - if she is within the 3.8/1450 “typical profile” parameters she could apply to Fredericks Honors College.
:crossed_fingers: Fingers crossed she gets it done soon and with minimal stress.
UDel is a solid university in a great small town. Honors college less competitive than Pitt’s.
If she really likes Nova, look into Fordham, UScranton, St Joe’s in Philly, Providence, Fairfield (run the NPC).
UVermont and Miami-Ohio could be worth checking out in terms of public universities with a private feel.
If she’s not sure about her major and wants solid career preparation while developing interdisciplinary critical thinking skills, look into Dickinson, Agnes Scott (in Atlanta), Susquehanna, and Wheaton MA.
As @tsbna44 said, if she’s sure she wants Business, then run the NPC on Babson, Bentley, Bryant.

What’s her UNweighted GPA? How many AP/IB courses has she taken?

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54

The funny thing is that if you look at the academic stats at Delaware, Pitt, PSU and Bucknell, they are very similar. It really boils down to fit and affordability.

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55

I’m a big fan of tests. If you’re not submitting an SAT/ACT, there’s a reason and there are many theories about this - but I think schools go TO so that they can have more students to choose from. High GPAs are a dime a dozen unfortunately, today, due to grade inflation. So test scores are the equalizer and when kids are allowed not to take it - that says a lot.

Nova reports 28% of enrollees submitted a test (assuming there’s no one who submitted both.

Lehigh 38%.

Bucknell - 87%

Does that means Bucknell is far superior to the other two? Actually in some rankings, that does show (they do well in career rankings - as they have a b school and engineering - so are they really an LAC? Their 25/75 spread is 1180 to 1380 whereas Lehigh is 1380 to 1490 - so the 25th % at Lehigh = the 75th at Bucknell- but percentage wise, more than double the percentage of Bucknell students submit than Lehigh. Why aren’t the other 62% at Lehigh submitting? Likely weak scores.

Penn State is 36% - so I agree not great - but it’s 25/75 is 1250 to 1410, so higher than Bucknell, but not Lehigh.

Pitt is 50% - they show a 1280 to 1440 range - so of these four, they have the 2nd highest #s.

So Lehigh has the highest, but hardly any submit and Bucknell the lowest - but most submit. I’m surmise if others had 87% submit like Bucknell, their scores would be lower than they are.

Nova, btw, 1410 to 1490 but only 28% submit so what did the other 72% get? They are like your daughter most likely - some higher than her, some lower than her.

It’s interesting when you compare perceptions vs. stats/reality.

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I’m sure by now you realize this site has a strong “reputation is not worth significant debt” cadre.

If your daughter likes Pitt and Lehigh, I would look at Scranton. Compact campus and walkable to downtown and off-campus housing. Strong business programs, and they are generous with merit aid.
There is a lot of competition for students like your daughter. There are private school options which will be under $50k/year.

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57

I see this parent as preferring private schools over public, and that is perfectly fine.

What I do not agree with (not referring to you) is that a school such as Bucknell has better academics, stronger and more successful students, less partying etc..than schools such as Pitt or Delaware. I see them as being similar in that regard, but different in other ways.

If the student prefers Villanova or Bucknell and they are affordable, good fit etc…by all means she should attend! They are wonderful schools.

I would think twice about Lehigh, given what was expressed socially. My D turned it down and gave up a huge scholarship in the process…for that reason.

She attended a very strong state school where her social life consisted of dinners with friends and professors, weekends with her research group, activities with fellow ambassadors etc. (For the record- she could have had that at Pitt honors but turned it down as well)

Be careful about generalizations (OP).

Good luck to this student. I hope she finds her fit and it is affordable!

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58

Said no one ever. At least not unironically.

I mean I completely agree with you that it’s not worth going into big debt or putting yourself under great financial stress, for sure. And I agree Villanova is not very generous with financial aid. (FWIW 40 percent of students receive need-based aid, which is the same percentage as many private schools without large endowments. And even at generous aid schools with huge endowments, like Harvard, only a little over half the students get any. My point is most private schools are “rich kid” schools to a large degree so it’s in no way unique to Nova.)

But a party school?! I mean come on. Have you been there? I have a kid in Greek Life there. There are some parties off campus…I mean they are in College. I’ve never met a single student…and I’ve met hundreds recently…that would abide your notion that Nova is a “party haven”. Almost all lament the opposite. Well actually some don’t lament it, but still. Never met a current student who considers it a big party school.

But back to OP…I understand where you are coming from. Nova is a great fit for my kid. I just can’t see how it could be worth the financial stress, especially since you have a younger one coming up soon too.

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59

OP- this is challenging for sure and I applaud you for trying to thread the needle in such a thoughtful way.

One practical suggestion- it seems like you guys are running schools through the filter of “she doesn’t want….”. You might have more success turning around the paradigm- not “she doesn’t want a party school with slackers, parents don’t want a school with a reputation of accepting low-lifes” with a curated list of what she DOES want- and what the parents want.

This seems dumb. Except that this method would likely turn up schools like Stonehill (exceptional accounting training; punches above its weight in corporate hiring), Scranton (already mentioned), Providence (already mentioned), and a bunch of other places with engaged, smart students and faculty that is heavily committed to teaching undergrads.

If it were me, I wouldn’t force Pitt or Holy Cross if she doesn’t like them. Plenty of other colleges in the world to attend, vs. going somewhere she already dislikes.

I’d also suggest dropping accounting for now- it doesn’t seem at all like she’s interested in studying accounting, and it is a VERY long slog to major in something so pre-professional if you aren’t interested in studying it for 8 semesters. If reading annual reports and working through corporate balance sheets doesn’t seem enticing to her now- trust me- it will be a LOT worse two years from now.

There are plenty of other majors that can launch into a corporate career. Psych for marketing (understanding human behavior and why is key to several marketing disciplines); Communications for marketing, advertising, investor relations; History or International Studies for anything global business related; Sociology for Human Resources; Urban Planning for Economic Development (a very hot field right now), and of course Econ– not a substitute for Finance/Accounting, but often studied as a proxy for kids at universities which don’t have a business degree.

Good luck!

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60

I don’t think you need to stretch yourself financially to find a good fit for your daughter, and you are making a lot of assumptions about public vs private schools that are unfounded (as has been pointed out by other posters).

What about Loyola Maryland? Your child could see substantial merit $ there, it’s a Catholic school, private, definitely not known for a “party atmosphere”. Another option that fits the same mold would be University of Dayton.

I’ll also add that when my daughter toured Bucknell and Lehigh the vibe she got was “work hard, play hard”. There seemed to be a lot of partying and greek life is prevalent at Bucknell. She felt some of the publics on her list felt much more academic and where she could find her people.

I’ll also add in my support for Pitt. Many many high stats students choose Pitt for the cost. Your child would definitely find a strong cohort there.

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