I know kids that have gone to all these schools and I wouldn’t consider them appreciably different when it comes to their intelligence. Often the reason some attended the latter (Pitt etc) is for financial reasons - feeling that they can get an excellent education without breaking the bank. At many large state flagships you will, of course, get a wider range of students in terms of their preparedness/seriousness but there will always be a very large cohort of incredibly smart and driven students who are working hard.
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Many of us on CC (parents and kids) are going through the same process - studying money vs. fit when it comes to choosing colleges. Something that I found to be helpful (especially when it comes to fit issues) is to read the student reviews on Niche and Reddit. You’ll really get a feel for what kids think about their schools - quality of the education, party scene, food, dorms, vibe, etc. Also read the digital versions of student newspapers. One of the schools on your list (won’t name it here, but you can DM if interested) had some serious red flags for my daughter despite it checking the boxes otherwise.
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Huge party school reputation.
Disagree.
OP’s daughter’s first choice is Villanova which makes any fit at Agnes Scott or Wheaton (Mass) unlikely.
Also, based on the other schools liked by OP’s daughter, Dickinson College and Susquehanna do not seem appropriate. Dickinson College does not offer business as a major and Susquehanna is too many steps down in quality of student body.
My D went to a Catholic college prep HS in OH and Dayton was a very popular choice amongst high achievers because of the high merit award potential. She had many friends who landed there who weren’t partiers at all. They have lots of fun traditions that are not alcohol related (and the university is doing a good job of cutting down on that).
Dayton is also still test optional and with merit would meet the OP’s preferred budget. And with a student population of over 11K students, any kid should be able to find their people. Application is also free.
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In 2024, the Wall Street Journal named the University of Dayton as the second (#2) biggest party school in the nation.
Several years ago, a CC poster’s son matriculated at the University of Dayton with a decent merit scholarship award. Both confirmed that it was a lively party school.
It’s October. She needs to pin down her preferences and put a list together soon. I had to adjust to “Listen more and talk less” with my kids for this process. At the end of the day fit is crucial.
We also live in PA. My requirement for both sons was to apply to at least one in-state flagship. One applied to Pitt and Temple. The other Pitt and PSU. Good schools, lots of majors and affordable. You can always decline an acceptance but no do-overs for not applying. Neither attended but would’ve been ok if forced.
Party school reputation is overrated. Kids can find parties or not find parties at any school. S21 graduated from FSU. Usually a high ranking party school. He found many other activities there. If you fall into the party crowd it’s not the school’s fault.
Finances are almost always an issue. You mentioned you have another student in the wings. Please offer them the same parameters and options. If you’re willing to spend $400k for Villanova will you do the same for 2nd child? I’ve seen this play out several times. Always hurt feelings.
Good luck
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My view on “party schools”, which is often backed up by anecdotes of students, is that there are usually plenty of other opportunities than parties to entertain yourself. (Just like schools that have say great outdoor opportunities for recreation neither means every student has to love the outdoors nor that they will not have anything to do if they don’t.) Possible exceptions would be geographically isolated campuses where there is not much else than parties going on. Another possible exception: if you are worried your student will be easily influenced into the party/drinking/drugs side of things.
I’d be looking at things like graduation rates etc to see if the “party” label is really a deterrent to academic success.
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What about Catholic University? My D23 visited when she was looking at schools and we were very impressed with the business school. Very pretty, bucolic campus. Gives very good merit, especially for Catholic students.
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Dickinson has an Intl Bus and Mngmt major I believe.
Susquehanna is down student quality wise vs Nova but has accounting and small classes (they don’t have a current CDs but on their website they say 18 on average for class size). OP is looking for value. And they are a big merit school and likely have over performing kids like other schools. It has a b school (odd for an LAC), is AACSB accredited, and lots of b school majors / minors - link below
We actually don’t know how strong the student is - we just know they have a 4.0+ weighted which really says little. We don’t know about rigor and we know the test is likely 12 something.
We don’t know if Nova is even realistic to begin with….at this point.
Why I asked for more info on the student from OP.
As we know, many mis-chance their kids (and we do too).
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I think it is a truism of most flagship level colleges that they attract different students for different reasons. Some want to have a lot of fun, maybe with HS friends. Some are looking for excellent research departments, possibly honors colleges, and so on at a bargain price for in-state students. And so on.
I also think it is true most of the time, people find their people. Honors colleges or not, different majors, and so on.
This is maybe slightly more controversial, but I think today more than ever, most employers completely understand this, and even very selective ones are happy to consider applicants from these publics as long as they have strong individual markers of being the sorts of people they are looking for. Like, they understand that the costs of college have evolved over time, such that getting a bargain from a high quality flagship can mean a lot more today than it would have in, say, the 1980s or 1990s.
Does this mean there is no value in finding a college which is more your people than most? No, I think it makes sense to consider that as a positive.
I just don’t think it makes sense to pay an uncomfortable amount of money for that, particularly not if that would mean the students needed certain specific career outcomes to justify that added cost.
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I might be missing something, but I don’t think the unweighted gpa, rigor, highest level of math or FL, class rank has been mentioned, just an SAT score below 1300.
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What about Hartwick College in upstate NY? They have business and accounting and the cost of attendance looks reasonable.
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Another school that is worth investigating is SUNY Geneseo.
Small school, cute town, relatively affordable for OOS, strong academics, they have business and accounting.
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I went to Geneseo for accounting. And changed my mind on my major before I even got there 
. Took a business minor though, and loved the business classes and professors. Wish I could go back now that I am more mature.
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It sounds as though you’re interested in having a strong learning environment with accessible professors. The Wall Street Journal recently released its rankings, and I’ve been diving in to some of the metrics. I looked up the metrics under “Learning Environment” for each of the Pennsylvania schools and will share them here, so you can see how the schools scored (based on survey responses from current students & alumni who graduated within the last 5 years).
The list is sorted by the Learning Opportunities Score, which I view as being closest to what you’re talking about. Bucknell had the highest score, but there are other schools like Susquehanna, Gettysburg, and U. of Scranton that scored very well on that metric and that give much more generous merit aid.
| School | Learning Opportunities Score | Preparation for Career | Learning Facilities | Recommendation Score |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bucknell | 79 | 78 | 90 | 80 |
| Allegheny | 77 | 72 | 81 | 77 |
| Susquehanna | 76 | 78 | 81 | 74 |
| Gettysburg | 75 | 73 | 83 | 74 |
| U. of Scranton | 75 | 75 | 87 | 82 |
| Dickinson | 74 | 71 | 85 | 71 |
| Juniata | 74 | 74 | 77 | 76 |
| St. Francis | 74 | 73 | 76 | 67 |
| Haverford | 73 | 66 | 85 | 74 |
| Lafayette | 73 | 75 | 87 | 80 |
| Lehigh | 73 | 75 | 87 | 80 |
| Elizabethtown | 73 | 71 | 80 | 70 |
| Villanova | 73 | 78 | 77 | 77 |
| Ursinus | 72 | 65 | 79 | 63 |
| Pennsylvania College of Technology | 72 | 76 | 77 | 74 |
| Messiah | 72 | 73 | 79 | 67 |
| Swarthmore | 71 | 66 | 87 | 74 |
| Muhlenberg | 71 | 68 | 78 | 65 |
| Franklin & Marshall | 71 | 67 | 78 | 60 |
| Kutztown | 71 | 71 | 74 | 67 |
| Slippery Rock | 71 | 74 | 81 | 78 |
| Washington & Jefferson | 71 | 68 | 82 | 66 |
| Lebanon Valley | 71 | 71 | 74 | 67 |
| U. of Pennsylvania | 70 | 77 | 83 | 79 |
| Thomas Jefferson | 70 | 71 | 74 | 68 |
| Penn State | 69 | 72 | 79 | 74 |
| Lycoming | 69 | 65 | 80 | 57 |
| Carnegie Mellon | 68 | 69 | 78 | 72 |
| Duquesne | 68 | 70 | 79 | 71 |
| St. Joseph’s | 68 | 68 | 73 | 65 |
| Chatham | 67 | 62 | 70 | 54 |
| U. of Pittsburgh | 66 | 68 | 74 | 76 |
| Drexel | 66 | 72 | 71 | 64 |
| Temple | 65 | 69 | 78 | 69 |
| West Chester | 65 | 67 | 80 | 75 |
| Indiana U. of PA | 63 | 64 | 77 | 67 |
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Excellent marketing, combined with the endless published “rankings” has fooled many into thinking they “have” to go to certain highly ranked programs in order to be successful at their chosen careers. With the exception of the Wall Street feeder programs, this is mostly untrue - especially for programs like accounting, where everyone has to pass the same tests in the end.
I know successful accountants (recent grads) from schools like the University of Tennessee, NC State, Appalachian State. All were in a 5-year program. I would not max out my savings or take on debilitating loans to go to a high tuition college for something like accounting. More important than a perceived prestige of a college is actual career placement, successful outcomes and alumni support in a given career field. I’m guessing you’ll find similar successful outcomes from all of the other, more affordable colleges that you listed.
Many parents place the responsibility on the college to turn out an employable grad, when it is actually on the student to manufacture their own success, no matter where they go. Unless their family name is on a building and they arrive by private jet, it’s unlikely that success is going to be handed to them on a platter as they sit back and bask in a college’s prestige.
My younger daughter did not go to a Wall Street feeder yet several students from her business school graduating class were recruited to Wall Street. These students made it happen for themselves despite the mindset that you can’t get there unless you go to the right college.
I suspect that Villanova may take itself off the table given the competitive nature of admittance making it a reach for your student, so you may not have to worry about making that decision in the end.
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Allegheny is another off that list that might be worth considering. Other side of the state but it is an older LAC with a lot of tradition, a possible academic and social fit, has a fairly robust merit program, and a Business major:
Also what they call a Microcredential, which is a sort of mini-minor, in Accounting:
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This is interesting to see in the engineering world. Was it a big firm, and what kind of engineering was it? Just curious, as it would be a surprise at a big name firm for a just-out-of-school skill level.
<Not to derail, your honor: speaks to relevance for the topic of reputation>
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I was not going to comment on this but I changed my mind.
If you want to have a discussion about whether “goal oriented” people exist in public colleges and universities, please say so and I will be happy to engage in that discussion.
FYI - students with “good judgement” or “poor judgement” are at all schools- public, private, lower ranked, higher ranked.
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