Best college for future law school

My daughter is considering seven colleges…

Clemson
Elon
U. South Carolina
NC State
UVA
William and Mary
Boston U.

Assuming she is accepted at all of them (yes, that is a big assumption!), how would you rank these as far as the prestige of the degree/college to law school admissions boards? I know that law school acceptance is mostly about GPA and test score. But I’m sure the undergard college comes into play as well. That is obvious from a review of the # of undergraduate colleges accepted by various law schools. D decided very early on (7th-8th grade) that the legal field was her calling, so she wants the best possible shot at getting into a solid law school. She has done well at state and national competitions, and I agree with her that she’ll be darn good at it. We just need the right track to get there.

I know these seven are an odd mix. But my daughter chose them, not me! She did have reasons for her choices though. I want to be sure that if law school is her goal, and she doesn’t get in at the top 2 or 3 on our list, we have an understanding as to which are the better choices that remain.

A curricular emphasis on writing can be valuable for a future lawyer. For this reason, Elon or NC State could be regarded as viable choices among the less selective schools you have listed:

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/writing-programs

UVA has a top14 law school. Many schools tend to prefer their own graduates. I’d put them at the top of the list.

Elon ranked #1 and Harvard ranked #2 in writing discipline. Very interesting. Thanks for that.

bouders, completely agree on UVA. However, I was surprised to find that the law schools that I looked at took a fairly low % of their own undergrads. I kept hearing the word diversity a lot. Meaning they wanted an entering law school class that represented lots of various undergrad colleges.

Over 7% of UVA’s 2019 class came from UVA. That’s more than twice as many as came from any other university. http://content.law.virginia.edu/admissions/class-2019-profile

There was a post regarding which schools were being accepted the most to the T14. That post might be relevant. If her goal is to be accepted to a top law school then it might be worth checking out the information. I keep hearing that the only things that law schools care about care about are GPA and LSAT. But from what I remember about the actual stats the top law schools seem to get a disproportionate amount of students from top schools. Of course you still have to do well.

UVA would be the best school in the above list. And from the stats provided they appear to take a lot of internal applicants.

Does anyone know if UChicago law does the same?

UVA, unlike most many schools, actually posts the undergraduate schools its students attended (a lot of them just give a list of institutions represented). Boulder above posted the numbers for 2019, but if you look at the site, you can see a link for the prior years. For 2018, for example, UVA had 22, William and Mary 21, and Vanderbilt 9. The link is here: http://content.law.virginia.edu/admissions/class-2018-profile . 2017 was 21 for UVA, 12 for W&M, and 9 BYU.

Looking back a number of years, UVA consistently has the most, but William and Mary has about 40% of the UVA total, which is the same percentage as the W&M class size to UVA class size. This would suggest your odds are about the same from those two schools. Both have historically have had reputations for having a fairly large number of pre-law students.

That is just one data point. Of the ones listed above, I’d say W&M and UVA followed by Boston U.

@ncparent2 : Those rankings (link, post 1) represent those for the schools within their respective USNWR categories. As colleges that notably emphasize writing, they’ve simply been listed alphabetically.

These schools have had particularly success with placement at highly regarded law schools:.

https://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/blog/top-lawyer-producer-schools-infographic/

Unfortunately, the analysis may not be of use to you if your daughter is a senior and has already chosen her group.

These threads express varying viewpoints:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1959382-possible-lac-transfer-to-state-school-for-law-school.html#latest

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20069299#Comment_20069299

I suppose I was looking at admission data thinking that only 5-10% of its own graduates sounded like a rather small percentage. But compared with the number from other undergrad schools, it is not. A new perspective. Thank you.

IzoOne, agree with you on the top three. But ranking the rest of the seven after that is my biggest problem.

If you would simply want to rank her choices by the academic preparation of their incoming students, this list could be useful:

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-610-smartest-colleges-in-america-2015-9

I’d rank them roughly:

W&M/UVA
Boston U
Clemson/NC State
Elon/University of South Carolina

I’d rank them roughly:

W&M/UVA/Boston U/ClemsonNC State/Elon/University of South Carolina…and any top 120 school…or any top LAC or regional.

Then any non-flagship or non top 120 school.

Really…the law schools care about LSAT score and GPA. My friend’s DD applied to many top schools last app cycle (she’s first year now at a T14), and she got accepted EVERYWHERE, with large merit, because she had top stats. She went to Alabama for undergrad. Another friend’s son is now a third year at UVA law. He was accepted to many top law, but UVA gave him a free tuition award, so he chose that law school. He went to Alabama as well for undergrad.

Elon is a hard one to compare, since it’s ranked regionally. How does a #1 regional compare with the nationally ranked schools? I’ve read all sorts of formulas for comparing them, but I still don’t have any good idea. Just based on your ranking of the seven above, it appears you’re thinking it would be around #100 nationally.

Elon will likely be fine. If the school was some podunk, unheard of, directional school, then it would be an issue. very likely adcoms have heard of Elon.

@mom2collegekids , yes, law schools care about scores and grades as you say, but there is typically much higher representation from higher ranked undergraduate schools at the top law schools. Those law schools get lots of applicants with very good LSAT scores grades and the institution is often the tie breaker.

Remember that these lists are descriptive, and you don’t have enough information to assess whether there’s an advantage for graduates of elite schools. Students who attend elite schools are more predisposed to want to go to law school anyway. They are selected for their high test scores in the first place, and students who on average score higher on the SAT are more likely to score highly on the LSAT. If you have a bunch of kids who all score really highly on the LSAT, they tend to have higher admissions profiles. That does not mean, however, that an individual kid who already is predisposed to score highly on the LSAT will have a better chance at law school from UVa or W&M than Elon.

Elite school students also may be more likely to apply to law schools in the first place. For example, maybe you’ll find that, for example, 25% of the graduating seniors at UVa apply to law school but only 10% of the kids who do apply get in somewhere. But maybe only 5% of graduating seniors at USC apply but the ones who do are highly motivated and 50% of them get in somewhere. (I’m not saying that’s true or even that that’s what I believe - it’s just a hypothetical example to explain why you can’t rely on simple descriptive lists of undergrad institutions represented to make a determination about whether undergrad school matters to a particular school.)

The bottom line is - she could go to any of these colleges and get into law school.

I’m skeptical of those writing rankings…they’re derived from a single-question measure posed to high-level college officials about a very specific type of thing. I’m not super confident that the Dean of Students at Brown is intimately familiar enough with writing across the curriculum at Carleton - or, better yet, Colorado State University - to make a determination about the quality of that program. And even if they were, a single-item measure (“How good do you think the writing program is at _____?”) is a terrible way to measure that from a statistical/social science perspective.

Availability heuristic. UVa is a public university; most students at UVa are from Virginia, and probably some of the highest-achieving students in Virginia - they would pay far less for a top 15 law school education at Virginia than anywhere else. Moreover, Virginia has an obligation to serve the students of their own state. Furthermore, it’s the simple availability heuristic: If you attend UVa as an undergrad, UVa’s law school is psychologically available in your mind, so it makes sense that pretty much every UVa student interested in law school probably applies to UVa. It doesn’t prove that UVa prefers its own students. (In fact, I would expect that if they did, they would have much larger than 7% there. That means the VAST majority of UVa law students came from somewhere else.)

I mean, UCF is on the list with 5 students. UCF is a great public university, don’t get me wrong, but they have more students at Virginia than Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Brown, Emory, etc. Is that because UCF is better than those schools? Probably not. It’s likely because 1) UCF is enormous! and 2) HYS Brown and Emory law students may be more likely to go somewhere else (perhaps their own alma maters?) for law school. Similar story with George Mason - it’s a VA school, most attendees are residents, it makes sense. Does that mean GMU is a better choice than USC or William & Mary? Not necessarily.

If you look at William & Mary, you see the same thing. UVa leads the way (likely because of its size) followed by William & Mary (availability heuristic), and VCU (lots of VA residents + size). James Madison and Christopher Newport University show up too. Because aside from being a good law school, W&M is comparative dirt cheap for VA residents. But because there are more VCU students than, say, Cornell students, would I conclude that VCU is a better place to go than Cornell to get into law school? No.

@Juliette, I understand your points that we probably don’t know enough to know definitively, but a lot of this is equivalent to placing a bet. You’ve got to place it somewhere.

If someone is predisposed to score well on standardized tests, they will probably continue to do so regardless of which school they attend. At top schools, though, most candidates have very good GMATs and GPAs. The perception of the school becomes significant as a deciding factor. This is why I believe the institution’s reputation likely does factor in the odds.

I’m not saying you can’t get there from the less well regarded schools. I just think your odds are a bit lower. (It does not help that grade inflation is fairly rampant at top schools – most commonly awarded grades at Harvard and Yale is an “A” according to the Economist.)

Yeah, you can.
188 undergraduate schools are represented in the Harvard Law School class of 2019 (http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/hls-profile-and-facts/).

Agreed. And placing it at UVa or William & Mary, which are well-reputed schools known for many positive post-grad outcomes, is not a bad choice. I’m just saying that it’s not necessarily an evidence-based decision to choose UVa over Elon or USC because it’ll boost chances for getting into grad or law school.

I don’t understand this conclusion, though. If Leslie got a 1500 on the SAT and is very likely to get a 172+ on the LSAT regardless of whether she attend Harvard or Elon or undergrad…why would the undergrad school factor into the odds? That’s committing what we call the ecological fallacy - assuming that something that applies to averages or big-group decisions applies to individual members of those groups. On average, Harvard students probably score higher on the LSAT, and are more likely to get into law school because of that. But that’s not necessarily because they went to Harvard and have it on their resume; it’s probably primarily because Harvard specifically selects for students who are likely to score highly on the standardized tests required to get into graduate school.

It’s a feedback loop. Am I saying a Harvard (or UVa, as it were) education has no impact on law school admissions? OF course not. I just don’t think undergrad reputation is as big a factor as people think it is (or rather, I would say there’s no evidence for it). And I think it might be a different story if the comparison was like MIT vs. Framingham State or UVa vs. Virginia Union or Old Dominion…but speaking of the difference between a bunch of excellent top 100 schools…meh.

Is money a factor, OP?