Best colleges/universities for maths and physics?

College Search & Lists
1

<p>Hi.
I live in New Zealand and is in my final year of highschool here.
I am originally Korean and moved to New Zealand in 1998, so I’d like to think that I speak fairly fluent English.
I’d like to go to the US, Britain or Australia for university so that I can experience more interesting things and learn in a more competitive environment.
Just a very brief outline of my C.V. will be:
Taking/took English, chemistry, physics, calculus, statistics as the subjects in my final year
Top Scholar in Calculus Scholarship in NZ (last year)
Bronze medal at the International Mathematical Olympiad (this year)
1st Place in Eton Senior Maths Competition (last year)
1st year university paper in theology and maths
Medal winner in the Australian maths competition and 1st place in NZ several times
2nd year university papers in linear algebra, quantum physics and electromagnetism
Member of the school’s C rugby team
Academic head pillar prefect at the school
School and regional representative debating team member in the last two years, this year moved onto coaching the senior A team
Best speaker at this regional public speaking competition
Selected by the Royal Society of New Zealand as one of two students to attend the international USA space camp
Selected as a member of the New Zealand school’s delegation to the Hague International Model United Nations
Currently working for ATCL in Piano (equivalent to ABRSM)
Been tutoring and coaching various debating teams and giving scholarship classes at school in maths and physics</p>

<p>I hope to have alright final exam results in a few months.
As you would be able to guess, I would like to major in maths and physics, and has some interest in philosophy and music.
Living in New Zealand, it’s really hard to find out what American universities are really like, and which ones are actually good for these areas I am interested in.
I would guess places like Harvard, Princeton and MIT are strong.
Could people please give me about 10 colleges/universities which are strong in my interest areas?
I don’t even really know what the difference is between liberal arts colleges and universities.
We use the words in different senses here.
But not just academic competitiveness, cuz I really don’t want to be studying 20 hours every day for four years, it’s just not really me.
I’d like a nice and friendly academic environment (cooperatively competitive, if that makes sense).
What are the strengths and weaknesses of the places you recommend?
What opens up better opportunities with the degree?
Which one has a better social life?
I also don’t like really huge metropolitan cities in general.
I’d prefer smaller towns which kind of revolves around the university life, but isn’t too far from like fairly large cities (meaning I wouldn’t like to go to a university in central America).
The whole bible belt thing isn’t really me.</p>

<p>Please help me out here.
I’ve spent so much time surfing on the net, and found really no honest, informed and unbiased info anywhere.
Any related comments will be really appreciated.
Oh, one more thing.
I speak fluent Korean and English, but learnt no second language like French or Spanish.
Would that affect my chances at these top universities?</p>

<p>Thanks.
Regards</p>

2

<p>For liberal arts schools try Williams. Oberlin, and Harvey Mudd</p>

3

<p>Other than Harvard, MIT, and Princeton I would suggest:
Caltech, Chicago, Cornell, Stanford, Berkeley, UCSB.
That would give you eight schools. Let me elaborate.</p>

<p>I attend Caltech, so I know lots about it. I am also major in physics. I recommend looking at the webpage to learn more. Caltech is probably best known for physics. The physics major is a decent program, and (for good or bad) it requires you take lots of advanced courses, including four terms of quantum and three terms of classical physics in your junior year. Those are the lowest classes that graduate students take in the department, and aftern your junior year you can take very advanced material. The math department is small, but it is one of the friendliest departments. Classes are small, and there are some exceptionally strong professors. The math majors I know are generally happy people. In terms of opportunities, a large percentage of my friends who have graduated in physics and math have went to the very best grad schools in those subjects, so opportunities are good.</p>

<p>The academic environment is extremely cooperative. There is a strong honor code. Students are not very competitive with one another (at least in math and physics). Generally, your friends are always willing to help you understand stuff if you need help, no matter how late at night it is (in my experience), which is a good aspect of the school. On the other hand taking too many courses is part of the student culture for some reason, and a decent number of people spend a lot of time studying and very little time sleeping or socializing. That isn’t everyone, though. </p>

<p>The social life differs greatly from person to person. There aren’t many girls at Caltech, which affects social interactions. Some people spend lots of time partying, although you wont find parties like you would at large state schools. That said, there is also a large degree of student freedom, which is a large benefit (people rarely get in trouble for violating the alcohol, drug, or fire policy, and violations are handled in house).</p>

<p>Pasadena is in the Los Angeles metropolitan area. LA is a very spread out city, and downtown LA is a strictly commerical area unlike New York for example. There is a lot to do, its just not concentrated. If you like outdoor activities, Pasadena is near the beech and various mountain ranges. I personally think that Pasadena is to urban for your needs.</p>

<p>I’ll briefly summarize my knowledge of the rest:
Chicago: Completely Urban, good physics and math, cold in winter
Cornell: In Ithaca, so it is rural, gets very cold, stronger in physics
Stanford: Ideal location for you I think, good in math and physics,
Berkeley: Urban, good physics and math, it is a large state school with excellent research
UCSB: Ideal location, weak math but exceptional physics, easier to get into, also known as UC-Surfing Branch and the University of Casual Sex and Beer.</p>

<p>Of the three schools you mentioned, all three are good in math and physics, and I would say Princeton has the best location for you, (small town 1 hour away from New York).</p>

<p>Good Luck.</p>

4

<p>Thanks a lot George.
That was really helpful.
So I take that Yale is not really good in maths and physics?
Also, do I really have a chance at these world-famous universities?
And also, my family is not too well off financially.
Especially due to the currency exchange rate, I am sure our annual income will be less than US$40000.
Will these universities offer me some financial assistance?</p>

<p>Thanks once again.</p>

5

<p>Yale is strong in math. I think that its science departments are perhaps underrated. Its just not what came to my mind. If I were an admissions officer, which I am not, I would admit you. I think there is hope that schools will provide financial assistance. I know of international applicants who received generous financial aid packages at least from Caltech. But that said, since you are not an American citizen, the sources of your financial aid are limited. </p>

<p>I would guess that you are a strong enough applicant that it will work out. I base my judgements off your olympiad scores. </p>

<p>The two state schools I suggested, UCSB and UC Berkeley, might have different financial aid policies than the private schools. I don’t know how this would affect you.</p>

6

<p>Thanks George.
That’s really great.</p>

<p>Just as a point of interest.
In some other discussion topic in this website, some people have written that Caltech and Berkeley have really good graduate programmes but not really that good undergraduate programmes.
Is that generally true?</p>

7

<p>Princeton has a great fin aid policy and is one of the few schools that is completely need blind, even for internationals (Harvard and Yale are as well). From my experience with friends and from what I’ve read, I do believe that Princeton has the best fin aid policy anywhere with Harvard having an excellent one as well. </p>

<p>Judging from this “Bronze medal at the International Mathematical Olympiad” and a great resume, I personally think you will most likely get into the schools of your choice. </p>

<p>Being a Princeton student, I do admit that I am speaking with a bit of bias but I think you’d really like Princeton. They have phenomenal math and physics departments and both are quite small so you’ll get a great amount of interaction with professors. I too sought to avoid schools in the city and Princeton, NJ is a great town thats still quite close to NYC and Philadelphia. As for social life, MIT does have great parties but I personally think that Princeton has the best social life of the schools mentioned. Yale and Cornell also have great social scenes as does Stanford. I don’t really think that any of these schools mentioned would open up better opportunities than any of the others because all of them are the among the best programs in the United States. Many rankings would seem to imply that MIT over Yale for math is an obvious choice but a top math/physics student at any of these colleges would have fantastic opportunites.</p>

8

<p>Thanks Pimpdaddy.
It’s really encouraging to read your post.</p>

9

<p>Berkeley and Caltech are quite different. Berkeley is extremely large, which to me means that it has lots of opportunities. Because it is so large it might be easy for someone to slip through the cracks. I think it would be a great school for an assertive person. </p>

<p>Caltech has 900 undergraduates. This means it is easy to get to know people. It is also easy to get a a chance to do undergraduate research. On the other hand, its size can be deceptive because it is so focused. Nearly everyone is a science major. Class size is very much a function of what your major is. The math major has extremely small classes. One of my friends took a class where he was the only student. Physics on the other hand has at least 30 students every year. This means that the two core physics major classes end up having over 50 students (because grad students take them as well). I would guess that at Berkeley, or other large state schools, the top-level undergrad quantum/lowest level grad quantum would be a much smaller class. I take an equal number of math and physics classes almost, and generally the physics classes are much bigger. I expect physics classes to be much smaller my senior year. I think students interact with faculty in physics more through research than coursework by a wide margin.</p>

<p>In my opinion the things that you should consider in determining the quality of an undergrad program in the sciences are the student quality, the faculty quality, and the policies of the department that you are interested in. I would guess that quality of instruction is more a function of the professor teaching the course than the institution.
Since there a lot of faculty at Caltech, teaching is somewhat optional, so generally (though not always) the professors want to teach the courses they are teaching. This does not mean that they are good, just that they will try.</p>

<p>I don’t want to judge the quality of Caltech’s undergrads, since I am one of them. I would guess that Berkeley math and physics students are better than average for Berkeley, which would mean that they are pretty good. Both institutions have great faculty. The Caltech math department is run very well, and physics treats its students well too. </p>

<p>To gauge student quality in math, you could check out the results of the putnam exam:
<a href=“http://www.maa.org/awards/putnam.html[/url]”>www.maa.org/awards/putnam.html</a></p>

<p>If I were you I would take pimpdaddy at his word and check out Princeton. It might be ideal for you. I don’t know much about its social scene. I think Eating Clubs are very important, maybe they are like fraternities at other schools. You should probably ask someone about it.</p>

10

<p>Wow.
I sort of knew Toronto and Waterloo were strong in maths in Canada, but they actually do really well aye.
And Duke!
They do really well.
They must have a strong maths department.
Do they have a good physics department?</p>

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<p>I don’t know if the physics program at Duke is good or not. I don’t think its up to the level of the other schools that you are considering. The math program there is decent from a research perspective. I think it is particularly strong in Applied Math, but I don’t know for sure. But certainly, there are some very bright students there. </p>

<p>Duke actively recruits people who score highly on olympiads, I think they offer scholarships, for example. From a financial perspective it might be worth looking in to.</p>

12

<p>One thing to keep in mind is that tests like these only tell you about a few people. If I were you I would use them as reasons to look into places rather than reasons to actually go somewhere. Here are the results for a somewhat similar physics contest held in the past few years, for what its worth:
<a href=“http://liquids.deas.harvard.edu/oleg/competition/prev.html[/url]”>http://liquids.deas.harvard.edu/oleg/competition/prev.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This has more extensive results, which include more than the best 5 teams. Strange things can happen with these contests in the team ranking, i.e. sometimes a school will accidentally not put its best people together. Have fun.
<a href=“http://www.unl.edu/amc/a-activities/a7-problems/putnam/[/url]”>http://www.unl.edu/amc/a-activities/a7-problems/putnam/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

13

<p>Thanks George.
I think I will now do a bit of my own research on those schools and also post some questions in the forums of these universities you suggested.</p>

14

<p>No one has been talking much about liberal arts colleges (LAC’s), so since you asked, here are a few points. </p>

<p>Math Olympiad types tend to gravitate towards the universities listed above, and not so much to the LAC’s. LAC’s are predominately undergraduate institutions, although some offer masters degrees in a few fields. The LAC’s provide a fantastic education, much more focussed on undergraduates than the universities. Many people in the US think that the undergraduate education at the best LAC’s is better, some would say “much better”, than that available from the top universities (I am not taking a position on this point, but if you search around CC you will see lots of debates on this issue). The problem for the absolute top math students is precisely the lack of graduate programs at the LAC’s. These students often are so advanced in math that they will run out of courses offered at purely undergraduate institutions long before they graduate. When these math students go to universities they finish up the undergraduate program at their own accellerated pace, then move on to graduate courses and research. The types of students who are going to place in the Putnam therefore do not often go to LAC’s, and those who do find their math options limited.</p>

<p>Being a student at an LAC is a different experience, and great math students choose these schools for the overall environment, not because they can match the math offerings at the universities. The choice of LAC vs university is personal, based on preference for class size, closeness of community, undergrad focus, etc. On pure depth of math offering, the LAC’s cannot compete with the universities.</p>

<p>That said, in addition to the few LAC’s noted above, I believe Carleton also has a strong program by LAC standards. Harvey Mudd, although an undergraduate institution, is not really an LAC. Nearly all students are math or science majors, it does attract a reasonable share of outstanding math students, and it is part of a larger consortium of other colleges that are not focussed on math and science. It is sort of unique, and you may want to investigate further. It does not fit neatly into the LAC vs university generalization. Just do not classify it with Williams, Oberlin, Carleton and other true LAC’s.</p>

<p>“Don’t want to study 20 hours a day”. Caltech, Harvey Mudd, and MIT are famous for how hard their students work. Since there are no actual measures of this, there is no way to know whether the math and physics students there work harder than math and physics students at the broader universities. Most people think math, science and engineering students work harder than students majoring in other fields, so places with a large portion of such students have reputations for hard work.</p>

15

<p>Link to more info about math at Harvey Mudd</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.math.hmc.edu/impressivestats.html[/url]”>http://www.math.hmc.edu/impressivestats.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

16

<p>Thanks afan.
These LACs certainly seem to be impressive.
I should investigate further.
And I take that Amherst is not that good in maths?</p>

<p>Just in case more people decide to help me out, I’d like to clear up just one thing.
I think I would like to study mathematical physics.
I am more interested in physics than maths.
It’s just that New Zealand doesn’t participate in the International Physics Olympiad.
I would have preferred going to the physics olympiad than the maths one.
Of course, I still enjoy maths a lot.
But the strength of the physics department will be slightly more important than the strength of the maths department.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

17

<p>Amherst College is atleast decent in every department it offers, anything you study at Ahmerst I garuntee will be quality.</p>

18

<p>Amherst is one of the best colleges in the country. It is just that it does not draw a large contingent of outstanding math students. I am sure the typical Amherst math major gets a great education. However, the typical math major does not have a math olympiad medal. </p>

<p>If physics is more your interest, then the comments about the trade off of environment vs depth in science is even more stark. The LAC’s are small, and do not have large faculties or extensive facilities for physics. </p>

<p>You can get an idea of where you stand vs their curriculum by browsing the course catalogue. See how much of the standard undergrad curriculum you have already covered. </p>

<p>If you can identify a small number of likely LAC’s, email the admissions offices, give them a very brief summary of your level in math and physics, and ask them how well the school prepares people like you for graduate school (where I assume you are headed). The admissions officers are unlikely to have backgrounds in physics, so they will give you general information, then refer you to someone in the physics department. </p>

<p>In general, at an LAC, expect smaller classes and more attention from the faculty, but much less research on a narrower range of topics. At the big universities, the challenge is getting the professors’ attention. At the LAC’s the challenge is finding the depth and variety of courses. </p>

<p>Try posting somewhat more specific questions on the CC sites of some of the top colleges (Amherst, Carleton, Swarthmore, Williams) and see what kind of responses you get from physics majors.</p>

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<p>Thanks for that.
It is very informative.
I do think that I am leaning towards normal universities than LACs.
Even Caltech seems a bit too small, not that I want to go to a huge state university with like 30000 students or something.</p>

<p>I am not very keen on applying to many colleges.
With the exchange rate, it’s about $100 per college.
So what do people think about me just applying to HYPSMC?
I am just afraid that I’ll get accepted to none of them.
Could you please comment on each school’s strengths/weaknesses and just general comments about them, and possibly nominate one or two others that they really think I should look at?
The following are my worries/questions regarding each of them.</p>

<p>Harvard: too uptight, snobby, arrogant, weird people?
Yale: weak in physics and some sort of inferiority complex to Harvard?
Princeton: it offers A.B. and B.S.E., I think. Why does the science thing go with engineering. Obviously, there are close links, but I am more interested in theoretical physics and maths rather than that applied to engineering. How does this affect me?
Stanford: apparently they don’t have much money to assist international students, and so applying for fin aid will affect my admission chance. And I need financial aid.
MIT: way too much work? The apparent nerd culture?
Caltech: too small? bad male:female ratio?</p>

<p>Thanks for all your help
Regards
Eric</p>

20

<p>I think math and physics majors at Princeton get the A.B. Personally, I wouldn’t worry about that. Check out this site:
<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/main/academics/departments/[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/main/academics/departments/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Otherwise, I’ll comment on Caltech, because I don’t know about the other places. The size of Caltech is an advantage from an academic perspective, because it has similar resources when compared to the other universities. Since there are so few people, there are lots of opportunities to work with faculty. From a social perspective, having a small number of people means that at some point you will know most of the undergrads, so when you go to parties e.t.c. you will always see the same people. Also, parties at Caltech are not going to be as large as parties at Big Ten schools that have thousands of people. </p>

<p>Similarly, the ratio affects social interactions in negative ways. Its not quite as bad as it seems numerically because the guys tend to be more socially inept than the girls on average. I would say this is the greatest disadvantage about Caltech (combined with the small size of Caltech, it is a little worse). There are, however, other colleges in the LA area,
and those colleges have lots of girls. If you are interested in Caltech, you should learn about the undergraduate housing system, since it is important to student life (it is like a fraternity system, but not identical to one).</p>