Best fit vs best graduate outcome?

Parents Forum
21

I know many grads of selective schools who didn’t go near business studies but are working in finance or consulting or whatever after graduation.

There is a reason that many of the most selective schools do not even have a business program. They first want you to lay a foundation as an educated person, and do not teach explicit vocational skills. Of course, reading, writing, researching and speaking skills picked up during a liberal arts education are invaluable.

None of us wants to even imply anything about other parents, but it may be that your parents don’t know a lot about the schools you got into. You were admitted to some of the best schools in the country.

And they have outstanding career placement and alumni networks.

I personally vote for Barnard (and Carleton second). Barnard does indeed offer all the resources of Columbia and NYC while at the same time provides an environment supportive of young women, professionally and every other way.

Please don’t view college education so narrowly and trust that things will work out. I sincerely hope you can attend one of these great schools and enter campus with the attitude that you are going to explore interests and make decisions about major and career after two years. Please stay open to whatever happens> Premature planning may seem to offer security but in many cases it interferes with opportunity.

It would be heartbreaking if you turned Barnard or Carleton or Bates down because they don’t off business!

ps stay way from charts on career outcomes and grad school outcomes and go with your gut at this point!

22

Congratulations! Your hard work paid off.

I agree with those who are saying that business is a category. Careers are as diverse as they come. The key is to get an education that prepares you to reinvent yourself multiple times throughout your career. Don’t pigeonhole yourself. All of these schools will give you a great education. If I were you, I would look more carefully at the alumni networks and where graduates end up geographically since that will be a big help in landing a job. Carleton, Barnard, Bates each has a strong alumni network in all the major cities that provides a lot of support to graduates throughout their professional lives. I wouldn’t give any credence to salary statistics. I don’t base salary offers on where someone went to school.

Regardless of where you go to school or what you major in, do learn marketable job skills along the way to make yourself competitive as a job seeker. The best way to do this is through INTERNSHIPS and JOBS, not in the classroom. Nothing is a substitute for hands-on learning.

For your parents: As a hiring manager at a Fortune 100 corporation in Silicon Valley who also worked in management consulting before industry, I can tell you that my colleagues and I rarely hire college recruits who majored in business or another pre-professional degree (engineering being the exception) in undergrad. (MBAs are a different case.) A couple of reasons:
(1) Top colleges and universities, outside of the ones @cobrat listed, typically don’t offer business as an undergraduate major. And we target selective schools.
(2) Recruits with a broad liberal arts education are strong employees in the long run because they are quick to learn new skills, think critically, write effectively, are good at problem-solving, and adapt to change - which is the only constant. They’re also, quite frankly, more interesting people. No one wants to spend 40-60 hours per week in the office or on the road with boring people. We’re looking for brainpower, work ethic, versatility, and an interesting personality. You have to be great at marketing or business planning or financial analysis or product design, but you also need to be good at carrying an interesting conversation with a client, prospect, or business partner over dinner. You need to connect with people from backgrounds as diverse as sales, finance, marketing, engineering, operations, IT, and manufacturing. Remember, business is about relationships with people requiring soft skills, not just about hard job skills. Both are equally important.

That said, different industries will look at your degree differently. Wall Street investment banks and management consulting firms will view things slightly differently from Silicon Valley companies or Proctor & Gamble or GE or Coca Cola or Walmart. Some employers and lines of business care more about MBAs and MS degrees than others. Quantitative PhD types find a niche in certain Wall Street jobs.

Best of luck! This is a hard decision. My D is going through it herself right now.

23

I think someone brought up a good point: internships, work and volunteering during your college years can really do more to develop practical skills (and resume) than majoring in business would. That is a factor to take into consideration when choosing. Although summer work and internships can certainly help, attending college in NYC would seem to offer more opportunities than Lewiston, Maine. When you visit Bates, take a drive through town! And BC is pretty far out on the Green Line :slight_smile:

24

Good to know that if you graduate from Boston College business school you will not be able to hold an interesting conversation in a social setting and that in the long term you will not make a good employee.

In a more serious note I would advise my child to go for fit and I agree with a lot of what other posters said in general. However, I find the bashing of “any” business school totally unnecessary.

25

Carleton! The Twin Cities are economically dynamic with many Fortune 500 companies. You could have fit and opportunity. If you are OK with the cold, that is.

26

Just have to ask…the above was written about Barnard. It was your top choice and you applied ED. You DID get accepted RD. Just curious…why isn’t it still your top choice??

27

am9799 you have a point and apologies if my post implied what you wrote, in any way. I do think times have changed and continue to change. I would therefore emphasize that, historically, many selective schools do not offer business studies. But increased access to college, higher tuitions, and heavy loan burdens have increased student interest in pre-professional majors like business, and many business programs have become super selective.

I would also add that, when my husband did an MBA (later in life), I found the coursework fascinating, probably more fascinating in some ways than my own English lit studies. The MBA certainly has some quantitative mathy type work but many were as intriguing for a humanities type as any class at an LAC.

Nevertheless, it remains true that it is not necessary to major in business as an undergrad to then work in a business-related area, and of course many get an MBA later on anyway. So the advice and hope for the poster here remains the same, from me, but with more explicitly expressed respect for business studies if that is what she truly enjoys.

I still vote for Barnard since it was the original choice and vocational concerns seem to be swaying that. I think a grad of Barnard will do just fine finding satisfying work. And at 18, being open to opportunities and new interests seems key unless a student is truly passionate about business courses in and of themselves.

28

I wanted to take the opportunity to address the “Carleton vs. Bates” question, having grown up in Minnesota where several family members and many of my friends from high school attended Carleton. I’m also the parent of a current Bates student (for a few more months anyway). They’re both great schools that I think are the best options you have for the business world (or any other world you may discover along the way, which is kind of the point). Take this with a huge grain of salt, but…

You may be aware that the reputation of people from Maine is that they’re know-it-alls. But weirdly, while I’ve never gotten this vibe from anyone at Bates, everyone I know from Carleton seems like a know-it-all. Coincidence? Probably, but in any case, absolute certainty is not looked upon as a positive quality in the business world.

29

You say your parents think you are setting yourself up to fail if you go to an LAC. The truth is, you are setting yourself up to fail if you go to an LAC or a larger university and act the way the people who fail to get jobs when they graduate act. Wherever you go, whatever you study – and you can study anything, it doesn’t have to be “business” or economics – if you aren’t paying attention to making yourself employable, you are going to have a hard time, and if you do pay attention to it, at the level of colleges to which you have been accepted, you will do absolutely fine. Some colleges maybe do create more of an employment-oriented atmosphere (I think Colgate is like that), and some admit more people who are naturally employment-oriented, but if you take responsibility for your own employability it won’t matter which of these colleges you go to.

I disagree almost completely with the ranking put forward by @VAOptimist , but that’s not very important, because all of the colleges you mentioned are close enough so that “ranking” is not really important. Based on pure academics and the quality of the students I know who have gone there, I would rank the LACs (in descending order) Carleton, Barnard, Bates, Colgate, but they are all very close. And I would probably rank them all ahead of BC and Lehigh (non-engineering), but again not by so much that it matters a lot. Barnard and Bates may have something more of an anti-professional vibe, but there will be plenty of students at both who are like you. Carleton almost certainly has the most intellectual, high-achieving student body of the group. It’s true that Barnard has more English and Psych majors than Econ or Math, but last year over 10% of the graduating class had Economics as their primary major. So it’s not like you would be lonely there. And especially not with all the Econ majors at Columbia. If you go to Barnard, you do have to put up with the weirdness of the Barnard/Columbia relationship, but most women survive that.

Congratulations! You really can’t go wrong with any of your choices.

30

One more vote for fit over prestige. Graduate outcomes are enormously dependent on the individual, and bright, motivated students will do well anywhere.

31

Just weighing in because my Barnard graduate daughter has a “business” job – that is her job title is “Business Operations Manager” and she is basically in charge of all things business-related for a small but very well known media production company headquartered in midtown Manhattan. My daughter did not major in econ and was pretty much averse to studying anything remotely math-y beyond the stats class she took to meet the college distribution requirements. She was a poli sci/IR major and her first job coming out of college was with a nonprofit directly related to her major.

D was effusive in her praise for Barnard Career services. She took full advantage of everything they offered – workshops, mentoring, etc. Career Service did not find a job for her, but they fully prepared her with the skills needed to get a job. My D. now has volunteered to mentor a current Barnard student, which I take as a sign that she feels grateful for the support she was given and now wants to give back.

There is also value to the Barnard alumna network, probably more so than for alums of larger universities.

It sounds like Barnard is no longer a favorite for the OP - and that’s fine - there certainly are plenty of reasons to head elsewhere – but lack of job prospects is not one of them. I would say that I agree with those who say that it important to gain marketable skills over the years. Employers like seeing real world work experience.

I think it is a very narrow worldview and also short-sighted for someone who is capable of attending highly selective, elite colleges to shift to a more job-focused major like Accounting (an example given in the OP). My D’s college education gave her the foundation to work in many different capacities, including choosing to pursue an advanced degree. While I am also skeptical of the numbers reported by college concerning employment outcomes (for reasons others have stated) - the bottom line is that they they reflect the first jobs students have out of college, not long-term career trajectories. You’ll have opportunities to brush up job credentials through life -there are always online and certificate courses available – but only one college undergraduate experience. It’s a shame to sell yourself short on that by applying trade-school values to academia.

32

Wow so well put calmom.

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@penngirlpending First of all, congratulations. <:-P

You have excellent choices in front of you and can’t go wrong in terms of quality of education. So yes, I think it comes down to fit for you. Will you be attending admitted students days? You should do that at your top 3 if you can.

Wow, I do not agree with this at all. Very odd thing to say. I have family members that graduated from top national UNIS and top national LAC’s and they are all very successful.

34

@calmom: It depends on the major and even more the individual. Studying pharmacy, for instance, leads to a narrow path. Other “vocational” majors touch many different fields and thus open up more paths (for packaging engineering, you study basic science, management, design, marketing, logistics, engineering, and could go down any of those paths in the future).
One of the best guys I know at thinking more steps ahead than most was not a liberal arts major. He was an accounting major in college, but the key thing is that he kept educating himself through his career (not formally, but, for instance, he knows more about the area I’m in than a lot of other management) and more importantly, he kept thinking and reflecting. It’s the individual that matters most.

35

I vote for best fit. Bates and Carleton are great schools. You will learn best where you are happy. Any knowledgeable employer will recognize these schools (and I don’t think you want to work for anyone not knowledgeable, do you ? :wink: )

If you are considering an MBA program later, I believe that top programs (i.e. Penn Wharton) actually prefer applicants with degrees other than business, anyway (econ/math are fine.) I believe that undergrad business majors are considered somewhat business "lite.’ A straight liberal arts education from a fine school is a solid base from which to grow and specialize. I’m not part of the business world myself, but those of you who are, please correct me if I’m wrong about this.

36

Yes, but in this case we have a prospective econ major who asked whether a school that offered a more job-focused Accounting major would be a better choice.

A student who enrolls in a program such as Pharmacy or Nursing is on a clear career path from the start, and is making a knowing choice to narrow their options.

A student headed off to an elite college with an array of academic choices who is being told by her parents or others that she needs something more practical is not pursuing a planned career. She is being sold a bill of goods by nervous parents who clearly have very little understanding of the employment and career paths and options typically followed by graduates of top colleges. The OP doesn’t want to be an accountant… she just doesn’t have much of a clue at age 18 how her planned major relates to future employment. So she is thinking she has to have a major that matches a job title. And that just isn’t the case.

37

It’s not always a knowing choice when initiated as a HS senior/early college undergrad as pressure from parents/peers and the notion college must be vocational training could lead some students down those paths only for them to realize it was a mistake and feel trapped in jobs they find they dislike.

An ex I dated was in this very position when she found only after being a Pharmacist for a few years after graduation that she disliked it and regretted choosing that major/field. Unfortunately, her educational training was so narrow and she excelled so well in the field that she feels trapped at having to start from zero and losing the high income her performance has brought her thus far.

Incidentally, one reason why we’re no longer together is precisely because she kept ranting about the regrets about her chosen career path every time we’ve interacted/dated which got very old after a while. In short, don’t end up/be like her if you want a happy/well adjusted life.

38

Thank you everyone for commenting and giving me your opinions and advice! This is an extremely difficult process for me and my parents. We’re so happy to have you guide us on the hopefully right direction. I showed this thread to my parents and my mom is quickly warming up to Barnard and Carleton. My dad isn’t very involved in the process, I don’t blame him, he’s working oos.

I want to clarify some things:
Most of you think I have a narrow view on college selections, basing solely on career outcomes. I understand your concerns, but my parents are very worried about my future. They’re immigrants, and I’m first-gen URM. They’ve come a long way to support the entire family and invested in providing me and my siblings an excellent education while working overtime despite cultural norms (“Family first, education second”: help parents financially by working jobs and later attend a local college). Essentially, climbing our family out of the working class cycle. They’ve sacrificed so much and hope this 4 yr investment will provide a lifetime of opportunity and a better future. Unfortunately, we won’t be getting any financial aid so we want to make sure the full price we’re paying is worth the costs. This brings us to considering career and graduate outcomes as one of our main priorities.

I’ve decided the schools I’m continuing to consider are: Carleton, Barnard, BC. I’m not sure about Bates, because the location will not allow me to secure an appropriate internship although I like the community and unique academic schedule. I’ve crossed out Colgate and Lehigh, because while the academic offerings are appealing, I will not mesh with their student bodies. Hamilton and Davidson are on deck. I’m visiting Barnard and BC to see the environment and have already visited Carleton last year (hence why I love it so much). My friends keep saying Carleton is quirky and students there are socially awkward, but I did not think so when I stayed overnight.

One of the problems of LACs in general (or so I’ve heard), is the lack of a large alumni network and name recognition. (Again, my parents want me to remember those are important for internships/jobs.) I’m just going to keep their requests on the backburner for now. I still want to pursue a job with one of the big 4 firms, and I’m confident I can do so at a LAC w/ and econ major (it may take more hustling) based on your personal stories. I’m not very interested in attending a technical school despite some of your assumptions, but my parents think having a narrow concentration such as accounting or finance would help me find a job as opposed to economics. I’ve shown them class profiles at MBA schools where they depict an avg 25% coming from a major in business while the rest is from humanities, stem, or econ. Sigh, I’m tired of their stubbornness.

Thank you and I hope to hear more input from you! Positive and negative reviews all welcome! :slight_smile:

39

“I’m not sure about Bates, because the location will not allow me to secure an appropriate internship although I like the community and unique academic schedule.”

On-campus recruiting really does happen. In fact, it’s where a ton of students at all the schools you mentioned land internships and full-time offers. Companies come to schools like Bates to recruit.
How else do you think they manage to be one of the top 20 feeders to elite MBA programs?
However, Barnard and BC would allow you to pound the pavement and network for internships/jobs on your own as well in NYC and Boston (instead of just solely relying on OCR and the alumni network). That’s their advantage.

Also, typically, the smaller the school, the tighter the alumni network. Having a lot of people in your alumni network isn’t a key thing (unless you are a salesman type and great at selling yourself, in which case it may be a great benefit); having alums who are willing to make the effort to help you out is.

Finally, nothing against your parents, but they don’t seem to be in a position to hire elite school grads. Those who are definitely have heard of and recruit from all the schools you listed above.

40

Thanks for shedding light on your situation, OP! It makes it easier for us to understand your concerns and the different issues you are juggling.