<p>I think it’s risky to try to find the “highest ranked” school in a music field, or in many others. It’s what works best for you in terms of teacher, performance opps, location, etc.
Double majoring in a music performance area and any academic area will most likely take you an extra year. If you decide to do this, really pay attention to the physical plant of the school as you’d want to minimize the time spend moving between the music school and the rest of the campus; at some schools, this is really simple, while at others it might entail a lengthy subway or bus ride…</p>
<p>Thanks Chem shennie and Mezzo.</p>
<p>I asked that question because its becoming even more critical nowadays for musicians to have a second degree given the financial hardships that new BM grads are facing straight out of graduation. Bard, for that matter, requires all BM majors to double major. I thought a science course like physics might be a good partner given the relationship between physics and sound.</p>
<p>An additional year is OK, I guess. What I’m thinking more about is that science courses are typically very rigorous and difficult by themselves.</p>
<p>Since the OP is a jazz guitarist, I just wanted to clarify that Jazz is not part of Bard’s Conservatory - it is a BA degree in Bard College. (Classical music is part of the Conservatory.) No double degree is required for the BA.</p>
<p>As for whether it is “more critical nowadays” for a music student to have a dual degree, I would say that music has never been an easy career path and likely never will be. But a music degree is still… a degree. In my mind, no “better” or “worse” than English, Art, History, etc. This is one of the reasons my son chose to pursue a BM at a major university-based conservatory. While it’s true that even stand-alone conservatories have core general education requirements, there may be (who knows, really) a perception in the non-music employment world that those students “only” studied music.</p>
<p>Another thing to keep in mind is that music (particularly a BM, because everyone in academia knows the rigor) is a great undergrad degree for grad school, should the student decide to pursue another path later on. </p>
<p>Also, having now witnessed firsthand how rigorous a performance degree is, I would advise any student thinking of a dual major to take five years to do it. And even then, it’s going to be a grind. A passion for both subjects is key.</p>
<p>My BM student eats, lives, breathes, sleeps music… the type who CLEARLY just simply HAS to make a go of it. I’ve encouraged him. I have worked successfully and supported my family comfortably in one of “the arts” for more years than I care to say. I wouldn’t have a leg to stand on if I took another tack.</p>
<p>My other son, a rising HS freshman is just as promising a musician, but he has many other interests. I always tell him: if you can see yourself happily doing anything else, particularly something where a degree points directly to a profession, consider those options. If you can’t, commit to it, and go for broke.</p>
<p>Just my two cents.</p>
<p>foresthills, there also may be some other options other than two Bachelors degrees. At many colleges you can get a minor with just 18-22 credit hours in the minor area. That’s one or two summer schools, and you could easily graduate in four years. If that doesn’t do what you need it to do, then you could go to graduate school, potentially for either your Bachelors major or minor. In most cases a Bachelors plus a Masters would likely be more valuable than two Bachelors, and you could likely accomplish a Bachelors plus a Masters in not much more time than two Bachelors. </p>
<p>I have also been told by an attorney friend of mine that some law schools love “non-traditional majors” because many of them seek diversity in educational background. Usually you don’t actually have to be enrolled in a “pre-law” Bachelors program (as there is not actually a pre-law degree) to go to law school.</p>
<p>Or if you think you could deal with teaching, you could look into a music ed degree. Music Ed majors can most certainly perform professionally if they are good enough musicians, but without that “ed” degree you may not be able to teach. If you went the music ed rought, and also did a second major or a minor, you might would be qualified to teach the second major or minor - just depending on your state. </p>
<p>At least one college we looked into offered a BM degree combined with a BS in education -both degrees accomplishable in a four year span (I think you had to take 18 hours/semester).</p>
<p>Or you could look for a college that offers a business minor or a music business minor. Then if music didn’t yield you a job, you still would have that business background. I am sure that there are a lot of music related businesses that would love to hire a music major who had some business education. The school that my son will be attending has an 18 credit hour music entrapanureship minor that includes a few traditional business classes along with some music business classes.</p>
<p>The one thing about a double major in music and physics, what is someone with a Bachelors in physics actually qualified to do? Without some education classes you likely couldn’t teach physics, and having a bachelors in physics certainly doesn’t make you a Physicist (usually you have to have a Doctorial degree to be considered a Physicist). I don’t think that I have ever seen a help wanted ad for a Physicist anyway. If you have some possible interest in manufacturing or r&d, then a degree in physics would certainly be helpful, but not as helpful as an engineering degree. </p>
<p>Or you could get an associates in something related to physics. Our local community college offers an Associates of Science in Engineering Technology. It may or may not be possible for you to duel enroll, or at least take summer classes at a vocational college/technical college/Jr. college and earn a BM and an associates in a technical field, and transfer some class credit back and forth between the two colleges. It may be worth checking into.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Given that doing a BM double major especially with one in science can be grueling, even if this is taken over 5 years, would it be a benefit to attend small liberal arts colleges with BM programs (ex. Bard, Bucknell) versus large universities such as Stony Brook?</p>
<p>I just looked at the websites and it appears that the liberal arts colleges may be more flexible to creating a schedule that works for the student and avoid a schedule conflict between classes (ex. rehersals vs. lab). Also, LAC professors in all disciplines seem to give more individual attention to students, expecially in situations where they need extra help.</p>
<p>Large universities may not necessarily be as flexible nor would they necessarily offer as much help, from what I read. I glanced over the Carnegie Mellon website and it looks like extra help is offered only on fixed schedules and sometimes/many times provided by grad students and upper classmen as opposed to professors.</p>
<p>Can anyone shed light on this. Chemusic - how were you able to hack out your double major in Hartford?</p>
<p>I only know about USC Thornton (obviously a large uni), which loves and encourages double majors and dual degrees, even has a Renaissance Scholar program for students pursuing and excelling at such disparate subjects. And at most such schools, the individual schools (Thornton, for example) are quite small. So I’m not sure there’s any benefit to what you’re saying.</p>
<p>(cross posted with jazzmom - refering to the post above hers ^I’m not sure I personally agree with your assessment. There are pros and cons to large and small schools, and remember that a small LAC might have difficulty offering the same breadth of options, selections and schedules for classes (outside the BM) as a large university that operates MULTIPLE units of a particular class…which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s “easy” there either.</p>
<p>Eg. my son is at University of Michigan SOM pursuing a BFA in music technology (note - not the BM or the ENG stream, although both are available in what’s called the Performing Arts Technology program, which includes performance, electronic composition, technology, programming, recording, etc.) He is technically a dual degree student. Just about all his scheduling involves overrides or permissions or exclusive access orchestrated by the SOM based on the fact he’s in a talent-based admit program. I’d be hard pressed to find another program that offered as much direct assistance even though UMich is a “huge” school overall and a “large” school of music. At the same time, he’s had access to a very very wide range of options in terms of the second degree or electives in top ranked programs, and he could conceivably if so moved also complete an engineering degree in about 5.5 years total between both.</p>
<p>That said, he is presently thinking he might pursue a MFA in his second degree instead of completing the second degree as an undergrad, since the $ for the fifth year might make more sense allocated to the 3-yr MFA, which is a terminal and therefore teaching degree. But he certainly has not been discouraged in any way by his “large” school from pursuing both degrees, and the staff at the SOM have been downright outstanding in terms of assisting and accommodating him in a variety of ways. </p>
<p>The pros of <em>some</em> LACs for <em>some</em> students include the perception of personal attention, which certainly does seem to be the case. However, I can assure you that there are many students at LACs who “needed extra help” and didn’t get it. Sometimes the larger schools are actually just as good or better at having sufficient RESOURCES to help the students “get extra help” – and sometimes they aren’t.</p>
<p>For example, I suspect based on your user name you are either from Michigan or Toronto. If you’re from Michigan, there is an exceptionally well known LAC due south of you that generally is a terrific program with lots of personal attention. However, I know a student who attended that school and did not get the extra help they needed. I know another student who attended UMich who DID get the help they needed. You would expect the opposite to be true – but you can’t take for granted what resources are available based on size alone. </p>
<p>So, bottom line, be careful making broad generalizations. The best way to determine a supportive environment for the pursuit of a dual degree (note: dual degree is more practical than a double major with a BM, for a variety of reasons) is to actually speak to the REGISTRAR and the DEPT HEAD of the music programs you are interested in pursuing. Find schools that are strong in all the areas you love, then tour and talk to them, take lessons, and talk to other students in the departments when you visit – best way is to ask to sit in on classes. Some programs will let you sit in on some classes (others will be off limits due to nature of the class). It’s a great way to get the low down.</p>
<p>Cheers, K</p>
<p>Thank you for your replies. The things I am most concerned about are:</p>
<p>1) Flexibility of the school to help the student take all required subjects of both disciplines (music and something else) and avoiding schedule conflicts.</p>
<p>2) Does the school have the resources to help students cope with the rigorous workload?</p>
<p>3) What is the nature of these resources? Are they available in limited times only?</p>
<p>4) Who will be there to help the students? Is it the professors themselves in almost all cases or will it be graduate/teaching assistants and upperclassmen?</p>
<p>I like your phrase ‘hack out’ the double degree in music and chemistry. It felt like that sometimes but I actually had lots of support from both the chemistry department and the Hartt School. The BM in flute performance was and still is a demanding major due to the high amounts of practice and ensemble time needed. So was the chemistry but I got the BA not the BS - so less courses. Two of the chem profs were musicians so that helped a lot - they thought what I was doing was great. My flute prof at Hartt supported me - there are tons of good flute players and he ‘did not have to worry about me getting a job’. Other faculty at Hartt supported it also. In fact, while I was there, Hartt created the Acoustics and Music major.<br>
So how did I do it?</p>
<p>Logistically everything is on one campus so no extra travel time. I got out of 2 semesters of freshman English (this was before APs - I showed them some high school papers and that worked). I chose chem labs in the evenings in order not to conflict with afternoon rehearsals. My music history courses counted towards the humanities requirements. I took 2 semesters of physics in the summer and 3 semesters of social science in the other 2 summers. You have to plan it out.</p>
<p>It was grueling but the chem dept at Hartford was small enough to care and that helped. I actually looked forward to escaping the conservatory life when I ‘had’ to go to the library to study physical chemistry. It was actually healthy for me and it balanced me. I would do it again and I give credit to Hartford for allowing me to do it my way and still satisfy their requirements. </p>
<p>Another thought , schools like Vassar/Hamilton that have only a few distribution requirements make a double major easier. You won’t have the BM though just the BA and a double major.</p>
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<p>My son is attending the other USC (the real USC), we specifically checked into him double majoring in two different areas of music. There is not a tremoudous amount of differences in the curriculums between any BM degrees, we discovered that it was basically just one extra semester to major in music ed and performance, then another semester to also tack on music theory, and with those (three degrees) it would only be a few more classes to also major in composition. Basically, if they would have allowed it, he could have recieved 4 music degrees in 5 years. They do allow duel degrees, but not within the same department.</p>
<p>Just a thought, but a BM in music ed is almost like two different degrees. Most of the classes are taught by the music department, but there are also classes required that are specifically music ed, and others that are just simply education classes plus a semester of student teaching. One of the colleges we checked into actually gives Music Ed students a BM degree in general music plus a BS in Education (in a 4 year 135 credit hour program).</p>
<p>If you are looking for a “backup” plan, teaching music isn’t that bad of a backup. Government benefits and a couple month summer vacation plus lots of holiday breaks. The downside of you doing it is that most public schools expect that music teachers should be wind instrument/percussion/orchistra instrument specialists, not jazz guitar. Of course the music ed curriculum requires courses in all wind and percussion instruments (or all string for orchistra teachers or all voice for choral teachers) anyway.</p>
<p>Imagep, we let it go once, but not again. I’m sorry to say that everyone knows the “real” USC is the University of Southern California. Particularly here in the music forum. Particularly thanks to the Thornton School of Music. You know, the one that’s housed at the USC that legally won the use of the SC logo, beating out the U of South Carolina? You know, the USC currently ranked 23 in the nation by US News World Report (and rising rapidly every year)? </p>
<p>While I"m sure the University of South Carolina is a wonderful place with wonderful music courses, it ain’t the real USC. </p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>The east coast USC was established 79 years before the west coast USoCal and has a few thousand students more than USoCal. </p>
<p>Therefor, by the power vested in me by Burger King, I officially dub the University of SOUTH CAROLINA the “real” USC.</p>
<p>I will mail you a copy of my signed proclamation.</p>
<p>Well, I’m not from South Carolina or California, and truthfully, referencing South Carolina as USC is completely confusing to me, so in the interest of future music families who rely on the music threads to get the low down, let’s keep USC for the socal school and U.S.Carolina for the other. I say that because to do otherwise needlessly confuses visitors who are usually (but not always) interested in discussing top schools of music such as Thorton.
Just my .02. Cheers ;)</p>
<p>Chemusic,</p>
<p>Thanks for your personal insight.</p>
<p>So in your case, you took BA Chemistry. Had it been BS Chemistry instead, would you still have been able to manage?</p>
<p>Also, did you ever need academic support outside the classroom (ex. consultations, tutoring, etc.) and were you satisfied with the support you got, if any? And is it critical that laboratories and other facilities are open till late at night for students to study?</p>
<p>Lastly, among the big universities (as opposed to small LACs), how can you know which ones really provide a supportive and understanding environment/infrastructure for students who want to double-major (or double degree) in two demanding fields like music (BM) and chemistry/physics (BS)?</p>
<p>Foresthills, call and speak to the respective departments at each school. That is the best way.</p>
<p>kmcmom13, it is confusing to everyone here, as one of the music-dads has already stated in another thread. But, alas, I have tried my best.</p>
<p>OK, for the sake of clarity, I give.</p>
<p>Many years ago I listened to two guys discussing football for about 20 minutes, one was from NC the other from SC, they both kept refering to “Carolina”, neither of them realized that they were talking about two different teams (USC vs UNC). I realized it and just sat back and giggled.</p>
<p>I could refer to the east coast USC as “Carolina” but that would be just as confusing.</p>
<p>When refering to the USC on the east coast, I will make it clear that I am refering to the one in South Carolina (as I always have). Maybe when people on the CC music forum should refer to the one in California as “Thorton” as that is what you are actually talking about.</p>
<p>Regardless, I think we all know the difference, I have just been jerking you guy’s chain a little.</p>
<p>imagep- My spouse is a Southern Cal grad and we live in South Carolina. He has finally given up after 30 years and now cedes he is a Southern Cal grad or a Trojan because in this state there is only one USC.</p>
<p>Thanks POTO Mom. I was beginning to thing that I was delusional. </p>
<p>Pretty much anywhere in the southeast it would be assumed that USC means South Carolina. Probably anywhere outside of the south east would assume SoCal.</p>
<p>foresthills- to get the BS in chemistry, I would have had to go a full five years and all three summers - I decided that the BA was fine for my career goals. </p>
<p>The chemistry professors at the University of Hartford were available anytime I needed them. We had a small group of majors who helped each other - no formal tutoring sessions. Remember this was a long time ago - I don’t know what is available at Hartford now.</p>
<p>It was convenient to have a choice of labs in the afternoon and in the evening. That helped a lot. You need to look at the schedule of classes for the schools you are interested in to see if the music rehearsals and labs conflict.</p>
<p>UHartford/Hartt had about 3-5K students (I think) when I was there and it is still not considered a large university. I agree with jazz/shredder mom that you actually have to speak with people in the respective departments at the schools you are interested in and tell them your goals. Really plan out your courses and show you have done your homework. You will know immediately if they are receptive and will be supportive of your endeavor.</p>
<p>I knew I wanted to be the best flutist I could be and was thrilled to have the chance to get a BM in flute performance. I knew if I did not have the additional pressures of a conservatory , then I may not actually get so far. The chemistry was a pleasant surprise, I found I really liked it and wanted to learn more. So put yourself in the type of environment that works best for you.</p>