Best MBA schools on the west coast?

Ivy_Grad · July 14, 2006, 3:43am

it’s completey baseless to claim that Haas grads have an advantage over Stanford grads in i-banking.

Stanford’s GSB is probably THE hardest b-school to get into (i’d argue harder than HBS). The point? Recruiters know that Stanford’s GSB class is the cream of the crop.

As anectodal evidence, when I was part of a team hiring MBAs for a bulge bracket firm, we’d definitely interview as many Stanford grads as we could, and the brutal truth is I can’t remember interviewing a single Haas grad (although I’d add that I was interviewing for positions to be based in NY). And frankly, all things being equal I’d take a Stanford grad over a Haas grad in a heartbeat knowing nothing other than which program they attended - no knock on Haas, it’s just that Stanford grads tend to be that good.

sakky · July 14, 2006, 1:16pm

From a statistical standpoint, Stanford GSB may be harder to get into than Harvard.

But I believe that Harvard beats Stanford on the cross-admit battle. Harvard’s yield (about 90%) is clearly better than Stanford’s yield (78%). They also tend to compete for the same pool of students. Hence, I think Harvard still has the edge overall on Stanford, although I agree that it’s a close call.

But Stanford vs. Haas is not a close call. Haas is a fine school, but it’s not at the level of Stanford.

unlimitedx · July 14, 2006, 1:45pm

Is the in-state Haas tuition 50% or so lower compared to Stanford’s business school?

Ivy_Grad · July 14, 2006, 1:54pm

Sakky - all points well taken - you’ll note that I didn’t say that GSB was > HBS, merely that it was harder to get into than HBS.

Statistically speaking (purely from an admissions perspective), it’s harder to enroll into Stanford (esp. given that GSB’s class size is nearly 1/3 of Harvard’s) vs. Harvard. I also believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that Stanford’s average GMAT scores are THE highest (720) even higher than MIT Sloan (700)… but I agree with you that HBS does have a slight edge overall and the yield no’s back that up.

We both agree that Haas is not in the same league.

justsomeguy · July 14, 2006, 2:01pm

I would argue that Haas and Stanford GSB are in the same league - it goes without doubt that Stanford is the better school - but Haas IS solidly in the top tier of business schools in the US.

A technicality, I know - and although anyone in their right mind would choose Stanford over Haas (ceteris paribus) - it is worth noting this fact - that the differences are at the very top of the B-school pile - it is not THAT great a disparity.

Ivy_Grad · July 14, 2006, 2:20pm

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that Haas is NOT a great school - it most certainly is - But Haas isn’t a Top 10 IMO.

The following seven schools are generally recognized as the top two tiers:

I) HBS / Wharton / Stanford / Kellogg (4 schools)
II) Columbia / Chicago / MIT (3 schools)

That means Haas, at best, is looking at a no. 8 spot - with very stiff competition from NYU, Dartmouth, Duke, Michigan etc. (all arguably better programs than Haas - hey Alexandre - here’s a chance to agree!).

Businessweek has never ranked Haas in the Top 10 (I believe its highest ranking was no. 13).

So basically, you are trying to argue that Haas is in the same league as Stanford which is at the very pinnacle of the MBA world.

CalX · July 14, 2006, 4:13pm

Ivy_Grad is clearly biased, Haas belongs at least in the tier (II) above. Haas is much tougher to get in than Duke or Michigan and is top 5 in terms of acceptance %. Haas has definitely narrowed the gap with GSB. Haas hasn’t fared well in Business Week because BW is more Fortune 500/middle America -oriented and recruiters like DuPont or GM can’t pry its graduates out of the Bay Area or NYC.

Haas is superior to Chicago, Dartmouth Michigan or Duke because it is remarkably well positioned to take advantage of key emerging business trends, mainly:

-technology
Great on campus resources/research, area is a global tech leader in IT as well as biotech

-Asia!
No top university is more wired into the Pacific Rim than Berkeley. None. If you are content with a $200,000 salary as a traditional banker or consultant, go to Northwestern or Dartmouth. If you want to make real money, check out the opportunities in China, where trillions of dollars in business growth is taking place. Berkeley and Haas grads are in the thick of it.

-Entrepreneurship/local business culture
top VC center in the world, and Haas is very plugged in

Sakky is right in that there are very few banks that recruit at Haas but not at Stanford. But there are other recruiters that recruit at Haas but not at GSB, like some NGOs.

DiamondT · July 14, 2006, 7:13pm

Haas better than Chicago?

what are you on?

obviously youre a Haas fanboy

I found a reallly informative site that describes the top MBA programs

<a href=“Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos”>Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos;

Haas is no higher than 8th among business schools.

"The Top Programs

Harvard, Stanford, MIT Sloan, Kellogg and Wharton stand out consistently amongst their peers, and have historically been considered the most prestigious MBA programs. They are also considered the best programs today. Two other notable programs are the University of Chicago and Columbia Business School. In fact, the deans of Harvard, Kellogg, MIT Sloan, Stanford, Wharton, Columbia and Chicago, meet regularly to share benchmarking information, and generally consider each other to be peer schools.

The reason that Columbia and Chicago are generally considered just below the other five is because they carry somewhat less prestige, as reflected in a couple of key statistics. Columbia used to have a 46% acceptance rate as recently as 10 years ago, far higher than any other top school, admitting nearly half of all applicants. Meanwhile, Chicago consistently has a much higher acceptance rate than any other top school (above 25-30%) and through much of the last 10 years maintained a 50% yield in other words, nearly half of the people offered admission to Chicago choose not to attend. Nonetheless, these two schools are considered among the most prestigious after the top 5, and are even ranked in the top 5 in some finance-heavy rankings. Siebel’s “Siebel Scholars” program recognizes the top MBA students in the United States by awarding $25000 scholarships to the top five students at each of Harvard, Stanford, Sloan, Wharton, Kellogg and Chicago.

After these seven schools, other well known and highly regarded programs include:

Tuck School of Business, Dartmouth College
Haas School of Business, University of California-Berkeley
Yale School of Management
NYU Stern School of Business
Ross School of Business, University of Michigan
Anderson School of Business, UCLA
Darden School of Business, University of Virginia "

Muqsith1 · July 15, 2006, 11:32am

Everybody knows how beautiful Stanford University is. Given the choice, I would rather choose Stanford than any other universities in the whole world. If Stanford accepts me next year, I would pack my luggage,leave manhattan and go to Palo Alto!

calicartel · July 15, 2006, 1:48pm

If you’re putting Haas in the same league in as those seven schools that many try to cram into the top 5 (H/S/W/K/M/Chi/Col), then you might as well expand that top tier to include all schools out to Michigan, Dartmouth, Darden, Duke, Stern, Johnson, Anderson, etc. But when you do that, you are automatically creating subtiers which will inevitably and undoubtedly exclude Berkeley.
Yes, the Berkeley name has an unbelievable reach in Asia but falls more into the category of brand recognition amongst the general public - most likely not the individuals top MBAs will be going to seeking employment from. As mentioned often on these boards, the “grandmother” or “clueless-chick-at-the-bar” effect that will cause one to salivate at the mere mention of CAL will also occur when you say that you have an MBA from Princeton (which doesn’t have such a program). Those that are actually in a position to hire at the top organizations in the states, Asia, and Europe are those that can (and will) delineate between, say, Darden (a top program in its own right) and Wharton MBA.

sakky · July 15, 2006, 4:11pm

About 45% lower.

<a href=“http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/MBA/finaid/[/url]”>http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/MBA/finaid/</a>
<a href=“http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/mba/financialaid/budget.html[/url]”>http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/mba/financialaid/budget.html</a>

But that’s, of course, after paying full sticker price. Some students get merit scholarships, as Stanford GSB, unlike Stanford undergrad, actually gives out merit scholarships. I know a guy who got a full ride to go to the Stanford MBA program. He probably could have gotten a full ride to Haas too (but I don’t think he applied). But in any case, even if he had also gotten a full ride at Haas, compared to a full ride at Stanford, honestly, which would you take?

I agree that BW is a rather unreliable indicator. Seriously, HBS is ranked #5 in the current ranking, and this is the 2nd time this has happened. That’s pretty sketchy, because I think very few people seriously believe that HBS is only the 5th best business school in the country. How can you have, by far, the highest yield rating of anybody if you are only #5? Chicago is ranked #2. Again, pretty sketchy, because honestly, how many people seriously believe that Chicago really is better than Wharton, Stanford or Harvard? In the year 2000, Stanford was ranked #11, and in 1998, MIT was ranked #15. I think it’s safe to say that those were pretty indefensible rankings.

This is true. On the other hand, there are some recruiters who recruit at Stanford but not Haas, notably certain VC’s and private equity firms.

One might make the case that Haas is better than Dartmouth, Michigan, or Duke (although even here, I am not entirely sure). But saying that Haas is better than Chicago is, to me, a bit of a stretch. Chicago is a well-respected powerhouse, especially in finance. Berkeley is more hooked into the international scene, but it’s hard to say that that would trump the power of finance. After all, it’s hard to say that the world of finance is not the place to make ‘real money’.

I’d say that the people at Stanford would disagree. I would say that even the people at UCLA might have something to say about that. Let’s face it. Los Angeles is far more of a shipping and import/export center to the Pacific Rim than the Bay Area is, simply because the Port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is by far the largest port not only on the West Coast, but in the entire United States.

Not anymore. Ivygrad, you’ll get a kick out of this. The highest average GMAT score is now currently held by Wharton (714), with Stanford coming in 2nd (712), and HBS 3rd (707).

However, it should be said that HBS has by far the highest average undergraduate GPA (3.64) of all of them, far higher than even Stanford (3.56). However, it should also be said that an examination of GPA obviously hurts those schools that tend to admit lots of students who simply studied harder majors, such as MITSloan, which tends to admit lots of former engineers.

Mr_Payne · July 15, 2006, 4:27pm

As a link showed earlier, 31% of GSB students are from techical undergrads, is that a high percentage?

sakky · July 15, 2006, 6:07pm

It’s probably about average. Lots of MBA students at the top schools come from technical backgrounds. For example, in the MBA program at MITSloan, about 51% of the class has technical backgrounds (engineering, CS, math, or natural sciences). Then again, this is MIT, after all, so it shouldn’t be that surprising to find lots of technical people.

<a href=“http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/program/classof07profile.php[/url]”>http://mitsloan.mit.edu/mba/program/classof07profile.php</a>

Ivy_Grad · July 15, 2006, 10:47pm

very interesting sakky…

wow, is it me or have GMAT averages gone down over the last few years? i remember Stanford’s being really high when I was applying to b-school.

CalX · July 16, 2006, 2:11am

DiamondT, I agree that Haas is top 10 but not top 5.

However, I provided solid reasons for preferring Haas over many other top universities. There are other factors one should look for beyond the rankings, as most programs have key strengths, such as marketing at Kellogg or finance at Wharton. I think that Berkeley’s strengths make it very well-equiped for the business career needs and aspirations of its future grads.

Sakky, Berkeley is more closely connected with the Pacific Rim than Stanford, due to the makeup of its student body and administration and the more Californian bent of the school. Stanford is a bit more “American”. Cal has had a Chinese-born Chancellor two decades ago, that would have been inconceivable at other top unis., even at Stanford.

Berkeley has been wired into Asia for decades, while programs such as those from Duke, Dartmouth or Michigan are culturally quite removed from that continent.

UCLA is somewhat comparable to Berkeley in that matter, but it’s not nearly as highly regarded than Berkeley, especially in Asia. Asian elites have been flocking to Berkeley in large numbers for decades.

sakky · July 16, 2006, 2:53am

I think so. On the other hand, average GPA’s seem to be increasing strongly. So it seems to me as if B-schools are de-emphasizing the GMAT in favor of grades.

Well, all I would say to that is that even among (or perhaps especially among) Chinese-Americans and among Chinese foreign nationals, Stanford GSB seems to be preferred over Haas. People of Chinese ethnicity tend to be even more brand-conscious than average, and hence the power of the Stanford brand name vis-a-vis Berkeley takes on even more importance than usual.

Well, if you to talk about what the elites want, then let’s face it, there is only one brand-name that really counts. It’s Harvard. Asian elites, and elites everywhere want to go to Harvard. Whether we like it or not, Harvard has a better brand name among the elites than anybody else does.

Don’t get me wrong. I like Haas a lot. In many ways, I think that Haas is what the Berkeley undergraduate program ought to be. But you said, and I agree, that Haas is not top 5. In fact, it’s probably not top 7 either, as it’s not part of the M7. It’s quite questionable as to whether Haas really is better than Chicago or Columbia, and I really don’t think it’s better than MITSloan.

Ivy_Grad · July 16, 2006, 3:35am

I couldn’t agree with this more. Having worked abroad, having actually worked in both Europe AND Asia - having met and worked with companies and people from Asia’s “big three” - i.e. China, Japan and Korea, I can say with complete confidence that the power of Stanford’s prestige and brand name is only eclipsed by Harvard (and perhaps MIT - but more equally so).

Further - and more to the point - I haven’t met a single person from Asia who believes that Haas is better than Stanford.

Lastly, CalX has charged me with “being biased” - BUT how so?

I have never attended any schools west of Philly - I’m not a Stanford grad nor am I a Berkeley grad - I have NO axe to grind here.

If anything, it seems that CalX is the one who is less than objective - whom I can only presume is a Cal grad.

CalX · July 16, 2006, 11:58am

sakky, there is no “M7”, at least not in terms of its usage at a serious source.

Ivygrad, yes indeed I am a Cal grad, BS and MBA, I picked Haas over Wharton. I am also from europe, so I am in a good position to judge in terms of int’l reputation. I would also say with confidence that the Berkeley name is actually even bigger in Asia than in Europe. You do have a bias, an Ivy bias, and from that bias Stanford looks better.

I did not dispute the fact that the GSB is ranked higher than Haas, just the assertion that beyond the MBA program, the Stanford brand is superior to the Berkeley brand overseas. That is important because Berkeley has a phenomenal business network in Asia, due to the quality and quantity of Asian grads from Berkeley. While doing business in Asia, I have met cabinet members who were from the same Berkeley dormitory…

My point was:
-Haas is at the very least a top 10 MBA program
-Haas is better than just about every top MBA program in terms of its exposure and access to Asia, where lies an incredible amount of business opportunities.
-In picking an MBA program, one needs to look beyond the numbers to look at further aspects of personal fits and opportunities that lie beyond the “classic” MBA path.

Ivy_Grad · July 16, 2006, 2:16pm

It still amazes me how quick people are to judge other people purely based on an internet handle.

If my handle was “ILoveStarbucks”, the knee-jerk reaction to my comments would be reduced significantly.

Secondly, what in the world does an Ivy bias have to do with Stanford?

Third, I have backed up my own assertions with my own actual experiences:

I understand now that you are a Cal grad - and don’t get me wrong, I believe Cal is an oustanding institution - please feel free to review any / all of my comments I’ve made in the past about Cal and I challenge you to find a single derogatory comment. I have the utmost respect for Cal - one of my best friends is a Cal grad.

But even he concedes that Stanford has a stronger name in Asia - and he is Chinese-American.

No one would argue that Cal doesn’t have a strong connection to Asia, no one would argue that the number of Asian graduates creates a strong network for Cal grads to leverage.

But that being said, people / businesses in Asia don’t live in complete isolation - they are “plugged in” just as much as the next region (I’d argue even more so). What’s the point? The point is simply this: even you concede that GSB is ranked higher than Haas. You concede that at least in the US, Stanford GSB > Haas. Well, don’t you think that people in Asia KNOW this? Is this some well guarded secret that is never destined to cross the Pacific?

They KNOW. They KNOW the numbers and rankings. In fact, I’d argue that they KNOW the numbers and rankings better than the average American.

Echoing Sakky’s comment about the extreme amount of importance that Asians (particularly in China and Korea) place on reputation and prestige - they KNOW.

So while Haas may be “wired” into Asia as you say, and Haas may graduate a higher %-age of Asians - that doesn’t mean that Asians regard Haas > Stanford.

There is scarcity of value for one (i.e. low supply - high demand). If everyone overnight got a free pass to enroll into Harvard, its reputation and prestige would drop over time.

Next, the cream of the crop / elite students from Asia (i.e. Asian nationals) who come to the US to study WANT graduate from the BEST / HIGHEST RANKED programs - regardless of how many Asians are in a particular program (even perhaps in spite of it).

As a crude analogy, Chinese don’t come to the US for the Dimsum / Koreans don’t come to the US for the Kalbi, etc. - if they wanted an authentic meal, you just can’t beat hometown cooking. They come to the states to attend the best schools. Period. When they go back to their respective countries with a Stanford degree, there is a level of prestige and credibility that is instantly recognized.

Finally, you state that you chose Haas over Wharton. Well, are you insinuating that Wharton’s reputation or network is somehow inferior to Haas? To which I’d have to plainly call BS.

I challenge you to find a stronger, more active international MBA alumni network than Wharton’s in either Europe or Asia (particularly now with its ability to leverage INSEAD’s existing networks in Europe / Fontainebleau and Asia / Singapore). I’d argue that the global reach of Wharton’s network is at least as good as anyone’s - including Haas.

sakky · July 16, 2006, 2:27pm

I would still dispute this point. From what I have encountered in Asia, the brand name of Berkeley is no better than Stanford’s. Take Richard Li, for example, the son of the richest man in Asian (Li Kai Shing). Richard Li lied about having a degree from Stanford. The same with Dennis Lee of Singapore, the founder of elipva and nominee for Internet Visionary of the Year in Singapore, who was later found to be lying about having won fellowships at Stanford (and MIT).

But it just gets the question of why these Asians are lying about coming from Stanford. Why aren’t they lying about coming from Berkeley? You only lie about doing something if that thing you claim to have done is impressive to the people to whom you are lying.

The point is, I see no evidence to suggest that the Berkeley brand name in Asia is any stronger than the Stanford brand name, either anecdotally or rigorously.

Best MBA schools on the west coast?

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