Best MBA schools on the west coast?

CalX · July 16, 2006, 5:07pm

Here is how the picture looks from China:
<a href=“http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm[/url]”>http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005_Top100.htm</a>

As you can see, Berkeley’s reputation in China is far greater than those of Chicago, Penn, Northwestern or Duke. IvyGrad, your reasoning is flawed because you are comparing Wharton’s network to Haas’, as opposed to the network of Berkeley, which is quite large, and with which Haas is also plugged. Haas leverages the resources of UC Berkeley, which is one of the top 3 or 4 universities in the world.

As far as “knowing the rankings better than the average American”, the mileage varies according to the audience. The Business Week ranking is more from the pespective of its readership, which is middle America/Fortune 500. the USNWR undergraduate rankings are more skewed towards private schools as they cater to an upper-middle class white suburban readership. The London Times’ ranking and that of the leading Chinese university linked above is the view from abroad, and in that view Berkeley is beyond outstanding.

As well, the chinese don’t come to MBAs for the local dim sum, but that, and the broader fact that they have a local culture to lean on, is a small bonus that makes Haas more appealing to them than similarly ranked schools like, say, Dartmouth that are far less physically or culturally connected with Asia. I have a Korean friend who picked USC/Marshall over Michigan for this reason, and Michigan is clearly the better MBA program.

I think you also didn’t pick up on my main point, which was the fact that the exposure to Asia for a non-Asian is a very attractive feature about Haas. At Berkeley, I had Chinese roommates, I went regularly for dim sum and eventually took a year of Mandarin. The soft skills and cultural exposure I have acquired while at Berkeley helped me tremendously in my business achievements in Asia.

As well, Haas offers a combined Asian Studies/MBA masters that is the best of its kind. But even if you’re not in the program, you can take classes that apply to Asia. But even if you don’t, you will still get a substantial cultural exposure to Asia that will be a significant asset in your career if you have the ambition to tap into the biggest business opportunity in our lifetime.

firax · July 16, 2006, 5:57pm

Good points Sakky and Ivy_Grad.

I’ve always enjoyed Sakky’s helpful responses in on the forum and via private messages.

kfc4u · July 16, 2006, 10:23pm

for a chinese-american who wants to do business in asia, which MBA programs should i be looking at? should i be considering the traditional east coast powerhouses or go for those with a bent towards asia? basically a quality vs. location quesiton.

(feel free to just name a top 5 or a top 10 instead of ranking)

CalX · July 17, 2006, 2:01am

Harvard
Haas
Stanford
Wharton
Columbia

SK1 · July 17, 2006, 2:25am

guys, are we forgetting Santa Clara MBA? one of the top in the west

sakky · July 17, 2006, 5:13am

Come on, CalX, really now. We both know that the Jiao Tong ranking is not a ‘reputation’ ranking. It’s basically a ranking of overall research prowess. We all agree that Berkeley is a great place to get your PhD. That’s not what we talking about here. Look at the methodology of Jiao Tong and you will see that it ranks things like Nobel Prizes, Fields Medals, research citation, and so forth. None of these things have much to do with business schools per se.

If we were talking about where you would want to get your PhD, then I would agree that Berkeley is probably better than Penn, Chicago, Duke, and so forth. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about where to get your MBA.

{And to digress, I don’t really understand why Jiao Tong picked the Fields Medal. Seriously, what’s so great about the Fields Medal? It’s not the most prestigious prize in the discipline of mathematics, chiefly because it can only be awarded for mathematicians under the age of 40, which obviously necessarily excludes many eminent mathematicians. I would argue that the Wolf Prize is a far more worthy indicator of math prowess.}

Look, the fact is, business schools tend to have their OWN reputational rankings and brand-names that often times set themselves apart from the greater schools. I think we can all agree that Wharton has a better brand-name than Penn at large. The same is true of Kellogg vs. Northwestern. Hence, the question is not whether Berkeley has a better brand-name than Penn. The question is whether Haas has a better brand-name than Wharton.

The USNews graduate MBA ranking, I think, is the most accurate ranking out there. Furthermore, I think that most aspiring Asians who are looking at the top B-schools will be well aware of the USNews graduate rankings.

Like I said, Jiao Tong and the THES ranking have to do with ‘overall’ rankings, and, in reality, are highly skewed towards PhD programs. Nobody is disputing that Berkeley is a wonderful place to get your PhD. It’s still a pretty good place to get your MBA, but clearly not AS good as a place to get your PhD.

I would actually say the 5 would be:
Harvard
Stanford
Wharton
MIT Sloan
Columbia

And probably in that order. Basically, I replaced Haas with Sloan, for I have never known a single educated Chinese person who didn’t know about the MIT brand-name, and the majority consider it to be a more desirable school than Berkeley.

Look, Haas is a fine school, and in my opinion, clearly a top 10 B-school. But I don’t think we should go overboard in praising it.

Ivy_Grad · July 17, 2006, 11:40am

Well said.

Agree 100% with that list.

CalX · July 17, 2006, 12:56pm

sakky, you’re not making a rational argument, just engaging in rhetoric.

First you argue that it’s more about the reputation of business schools than the university at large using Wharton/Penn and Kellogg/NWU as example, then you argue that Sloan is better than Haas because MIT has a better rep than Berkeley. Your argument is inconsistent.

No, “we” don’t. I certainly disagree with that statement.

MIT and Berkeley are ranked about the same in engineering, but Berkeley is much better-rounded as a university, its superiority vs MIT in subjects such as Asian Studies is reflected in the MBA program. As well its exposure to Asia is much greater than MIT’s by virtue of its culture, history and geography. Berkeley has about as many Asian students as the entire student body of MIT. Which region do you think is more economically, culturally, historically and geographically more integrated with Asia, New England or the San Francisco Bay Area?

As such, only a biased person would rank MIT/Sloan ahead of Haas ** in terms of its appeal for someone who is interested in doing business in Asia**.

Ivy_Grad · July 17, 2006, 1:19pm

I just flat out disagree that Haas is so overwhelmingly more attractive for those interested in Asian business vs. other elite MBA programs (Stanford, MIT, Wharton, etc.) - and certainly NOT vs. MIT. C’mon! MIT’s rep in Asia is platinum. Not to mention the fact that MIT Sloan (MBA) IS better than Haas (MBA) - doesn’t matter where - It’s better in Beijing. It’s better in the Bahamas. It’s just flat out better.

I think you are taking this geographical / location thing a bit too far. Yeah, I can appreciate the cultural and historical connections b/n the Pacific Rim and the Bay Area, but we are living in the 21st century here. By your logic Cambridge (MA) and Cambridge (UK) are alien worlds away by those standards, yet two schools in those far of nether regions (i.e. Harvard University and Cambridge University) are revered like no others in Asia (they also happen to be No. 1 and No. 2 in the Jiao Tong survey).

Let’s take your logic one step further, why not tell everyone in Asia to save themselves a trip and go to Jiao Tong - or conversely tell anyone in the US interested in Asia to brush up on their Mandarin and head on over?

Finally, I think you are doing yourself a bit of a disservice to Haas by placing so much emphasis on this “Asian connection”. If something is good enough to stand on its own merit, it’s good enough to stand on its own merit. Period.

The fact of the matter is Haas just isn’t as “eye poppingly” awesome in Asia as you believe. As a simple example, when I was working in i-banking and had the opportunity to visit and work in the Hong Kong, Tokyo and Seoul offices, people would introduce me to clients by stating, “he is very smart - MBA from Wharton and also went to Princeton” - I mean can you imagine starting a meeting in the US that way (I’m sure it gets done, but not de rigeur like it was in Asia) – and I often went to meetings with an HBS grad - I mean fuggedaboutit - it’s all over: “Harvard this, Harvard that” - they loved the guy and treated him like he was Michael Jordan with an Einstein IQ and Ron Jeremy in the sack. The point, you ask?

Somehow I’m getting the feeling that the old “bow down here comes the Haas grad” card isn’t getting pulled out as that often as you think - that is if it is pulled out at all (save from an instance where a fellow Haas grad meeting another).

CalX · July 17, 2006, 1:45pm

I said that the Bay Area was not only geographically closer, but also economically, culturally and historically. When you step into SFO’s international terminal, walk downtown SF or just hang out on campus in Berkeley, you feel Asia’s presence, its cultural and economic influence. There is no question that being in that environment will prepare you better for the cultural and business challenges in Asia. Nor there is any question on the superiority of the joint Asian Studies/MBA program at Haas. Haas leverages its Asian ties very well, it is definitely a core strength of the program, and an area that is crucial in terms of business opportunities. Simply stated, this is the greatest business opportunity in the present and foreseeable future.

The first part of your argument sums down to “no, I say MIT is better”. I on the other had established that according to the most widely read international rankings from China and the UK, Berkeley is ranked higher than MIT. Feel free to reiterate your line above…

Ivy_Grad · July 17, 2006, 2:03pm

Actually, my exact words were:

And if you want to take any reputable MBA ranking to confirm that please feel free to take your pick: USNEWS, Businessweek, FT, Forbes, etc. You can stick to the Jiao Tong survey (even though that ranking is the butt of many a CC joke and has nothing to do with b-schools).

CalX · July 17, 2006, 2:06pm

Let me answer the point you raised after you edited your original comment. You say that Haas has a good “Asian connection” but then say that the quality and perception of MBA programs does not vary from country to country… Your argument is inconsistent; a university with a “good asian connection” will be perceived to be better in Asia.

As far as the “wow” factor and degree prestige, I think I would take the Jiao Tong rankings over your personal experience, which seems to be limited to Asian branches of American I-banks. As well, the instance where “a fellow Haas[Berkeley] grad meeting another” occurs far more than you’d think, especially at high levels in governement or business as Berkeley has graduated far more Asian nationals than any other top American university. It’s not even close.

As far as sakky’s “proof” that Stanford’s GSB was better because Li Ka Shing’s son faked a Stanford degree rather than a Berkeley degree: Li Ka Shing has apparently donated more money to Berkeley than any other American university ($40 million). <a href=“http://www.lksf.org/eng/media/press/20050620.shtml[/url]”>http://www.lksf.org/eng/media/press/20050620.shtml</a>

Ivy_Grad · July 17, 2006, 2:25pm

Wow where to start.

I was editing some small typing errors here and there. The main points I wrote above remain the same.

Really? When did I say that? What I DID say is something to the effect of: “a top program is a top program is a top program” and I also stated that MIT Sloan is regarded as a better program than Haas - regardless of WHERE one is doing the comparing - i.e. whether you arguing the point in the US, or in Asia or in Europe.

The above hardly states that I don’t believe PERCEPTIONS don’t vary across countries / regions. I don’t recall saying anything about PERCEPTIONS.

Look, the fact of the matter is this: in Asia, and yes, this may be a bit of a generalization, but on balance you have two distinct characteristics which generally occur across the region:

1) A profound and unshakable emphasis on EDUCATION.
2) Borderline obssession with luxury / quality BRAND NAMES (be it an LV or Chanel purse, a BMW, Armani suit or Dom Perignon)

Bring those two things together and you’ve got a volatile brew indeed.

So it’s no surprise that Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. are held in such high esteem in Asia (vs. other regions such as Europe). And this phenomenon is only strengthened when the region’s very best and brightest (be it a top student from Seoul National University or University of Tokyo) decides to pursue additional studies at those very same elite US institutions.

Now, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I have a tremendous amount of respect for Cal. I also believe that I have a better than average understanding of Asian culture and the nuances of each major region. Now, having said that - when it comes to a general management / business education - I just don’t believe that Haas is in the same league as HBS, Stanford GSB, UPenn Wharton, MIT Sloan.

DiamondT · July 17, 2006, 2:26pm

CalX, your arguing is futile.

Stop being a fanboy for Haas.

To say that the Haas MBA better than MIT’s?

What are you on?

sakky · July 17, 2006, 3:19pm

No, first off, I never said that overall university reputation has no effect at all. But what I said is that standalone B-school reputation has an effect also.

Hence, the argument would be that MIT is better known than Berkeley, AND Sloan is better known than Haas (although, granted, both are probably not well known to the general public).

Well, you should agree. After all, where in the methodology does it say anything about ‘reputation’. I see it includes categories such as the number of Nobels and Fields medal winners. I also see things about article citations. But I don’t see anything about reputation per se. At best, it is only an ‘indirect’ measure of reputation as derived from those other categories.

But so what? If you are an engineering PhD student, what do you care about the well-roundedness of the rest of the school? I’ve never known an engineering graduate student who has particularly cared about the quality of his school’s Art History department.

The question is not about the relative sizes of MIT and Berkeley (for obviously Berkeley, being a bigger school, is going to have more students of ANY race). The question is, where do Asian students want to go? I strongly suspect that MIT defeats Berkeley on the Chinese cross-admit battle, especially so in the undergrad side, and most likely on the B-school side as well. After all, Sloan has something like a 75% overall yield rate. Haas has only 50%. Why is that? Can this all be explained by white applicants?

Then that means there are a lot of biased Chinese people at Sloan. Many of them chose Sloan over Haas. Yes, that includes many Chinese nationals. Are you saying that they are biased against
themselves?

Uh, no, the latest UK ranking, as I know you are well aware, ranks MIT ahead of Berkeley. You are once again citing the old 2004 THES ranking where Berkeley is ranked ahead of MIT. But then THES came out with the 2005 ranking that showed that MIT was ranked ahead of Berkeley.

Hence, you really have only 1 ranking to back you up - the Jiao Tong one - and you have 3 rankings against you, the new THES, USNews (both undergrad and grad), and Businessweek. And Jiao Tong merely ranks MIT one slot below Berkeley. Look at the preponderance of evidence, and you tell me what the preponderance of rankings evidence tells you.

<a href=“http://www.thes.co.uk/worldrankings/[/url]”>http://www.thes.co.uk/worldrankings/</a>

And yet his sons either keep going to Stanford, or want to. His eldest son, Victor, really did graduate from Stanford. His other son, Richard, pretended to. Why didn’t they graduate from, or pretend to graduate from Berkeley, if Berkeley really has the most ties to Asia? Why would his sons want to go to an inferior school?

<a href=“http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501040223/li.html[/url]”>http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501040223/li.html</a>

When you compare what is more indicative of your preferences, where you donate money to, or where you send your children, I think the latter always trumps the former. Blood trumps money. Money is just money. A guy like Li KaShing has more money than he will ever need. But he only has 2 sons. Honestly, ask any parent - what’s more important, your money, or your children?

Ivy_Grad · July 17, 2006, 3:30pm

Truer words have never been written.

I gotta tell you its good having Sakky on your side of an argument - you just sit back and let the other side self-destruct under the crushing weight of composed, compelling, rational and insightful point after counter-point.

I feel guilty.

Ivy_Grad · July 17, 2006, 3:38pm

Not to mention the fact that the “appearance” of Li Sr. donating a heap of money to Stanford (and then having his sons graduate from that very same institution) would be cause for more than a few raised eyebrows. The anti-Li press / media would have a field day with it.

If Li Sr. could freely donate $$$ without the appearance of impropriety hanging over his head - I suspect that Palo Alto would have been a recipient of some decent helpings.

Going forward, however, seeing that one of his sons IS a bonafide Stanford alum - if I were a betting man, and I am - I’d bet that Stanford’s share of the Li family’s generosity is only a matter of time.

So Cal gets some money upfront, but in the long run, which school is best positioned to receive the lion’s share of $$$ going forward? I’d say that the school where the heir to the family fortune graduated from is firmly in pole position.

sakky · July 17, 2006, 6:41pm

Much of this argument seems to hinge upon the notion that you want to go to the school that has the deepest ties to Asia. Yeah, well, if that’s the case, then what would be even better than going to Haas or MIT or Stanford or any of those schools is just to go to a school IN ASIA. After all, what US school could possibly have more ties to Asia than an Asian school itself? If you want to talk about alumni ties to Asia as well as Asian business opportunities, what could be better than an Asian university? So you might as well just get your MBA from a place like the University of Hong Kong or someplace like that.

However, I think nobody here, not even CalX, is seriously recommending anybody to get your MBA in Asia, not when you have choices among the top US B-schools. Heck even Asian students themselves strongly prefer to attend the top US B-schools. Very few Chinese students, if they can afford it, are going to turn down a chance at an MBA from a top American B-school to get an MBA in China. And certainly very few Americans (either Chinese-Americans or otherwise) are going to want to get their MBA’s in China, even if they intend to work in China afterwards.

Hence, this throws the value of ‘Asian ties’ into question. The Chinese students who go to Haas are not randomly chosen. These are Chinese students who, for the most part, WERE NOT ABLE TO GET INTO A BETTER B-SCHOOl. If they had gotten into Stanford or HBS or Sloan, etc., the majority of them would have gone there, even if the ties to Asia were weaker. Now obviously, not ALL of them would have gone. Haas doesn’t lose every single cross-admit battle with the higher-ranked schools. But Haas does lose the majority. Again, Haas’s overall yield is only about 50%, compared to 65%+ for places ranked above it (and places like Harvard Business School getting a ridiculous near-90% yield).

So it’s not a matter of just having lots of Asians around. It’s really a matter of having BETTER Asians around. The truth is, the better Asians tend to turn down Haas for a higher ranked school. It’s not a random process.

calicartel · July 17, 2006, 7:19pm

Nobody’s forgetting SCU. It may be among the best in the west in the sense that it’s possibly 5th behind Stanford GSB, Haas, Anderson, and Marshall but it’s an extremely distant 5th (a claim that Pepperdine and UW alums would also dispute).

Wildflower · July 17, 2006, 7:31pm

I am just glad this forum is free; I thoroughly enjoy it! :D

Best MBA schools on the west coast?

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