Best Pre-Med Programs at christian schools

[hoosiermom]

<p>phear<em>me, are you related to WhistlePig? Sorry, my sarcasm is coming through. It has been established there is no national ranking of pre-med programs, Christian or otherwise. Thank you for sharing your opinion. And that is all it is, in spite of your “extensive” contacts in the medical field. I’m sure the OP will be doing much research to find the answers to her query. phear</em>me, have you even looked at Hope College? or have you dismissed it because you never heard of it? There are many great pre-med programs out there of which neither of us has any knowledge. Here is one link that quantifies science research at Hope <a href=“http://www.cur.org/quarterly/jun06/jun06hope.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cur.org/quarterly/jun06/jun06hope.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
Here is a word of advice (my opinion): cc is a wonderful resource and its members constantly amaze me as to the breadth and depth of their knowledge about so many topics. Some of the most prolific posters are also the most humble and acknowledge that their information is not the final word on any subject. We are all here to learn. I am sure that I’m not the only member with a personal list of posters whose submissions are more a source of irritation that information. Being able to see who has posted most recently is so valuable when deciding whether to select a thread.
OP, I apologize for digressing. Best wishes as you seek out the best opportunities for your student.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>Ouch. Can’t believe I am going to jump in and defend phear me here (just look at the Baylor thread and you will see we don’t always agree) but here goes.</p>

<p>In fairness, the Op did ask about NATIONALLY RANKED pre-med programs. I can’t dispute phear me’s point is there are none of a christian variety. That said, I don’t believe there are good national rankings of pre-med programs for any university, so the question is not a good one.</p>

<p>If the question really is, which are the best pre-med programs in a christian college - then the answer is different. I am not an expert in the pre-med area so it is hard for me to pick one college over another, but in general I concur with phear me that Wheaton and Grove City would be higher ranked overall given the rigor of their overall curriculum than some of the other schools mentioned. Note - this is overall perception - not just focused on pre-med.</p>

<p>That said, I wonder about the pre-med programs and opportunities at the aforementioned Baylor as well as at Pepperdine - which are bigger Christian Universities and may have more opportunities in the way of pre-med </p>

<p>An aside to Hoosiermom - LOL, if phear-me is recommending Grove City, he can’t be realted to Whistle Pig :)</p>

[hoosiermom]

<p>berryberry61-LOL. You are so right, WhistlePig would never recommend Grove City, not even as a back-up choice. I guess the tone of phear_me’s posts generated in me the same reaction I haveto many of WhistlePig’s posts.</p>

[phear_me]

<p>hoosiermom, </p>

<p>It is my kind suggestion to you (and please do not read a condescending tone, but rather a respectful suggestive intention) that you make an attempt to eliminate “tone” from an internet message board and instead focus on the content of the post you are reading. You might come away with a very different impression. In content specific forums, people should be judged on the soundness and rigor of their postings, not their tone. Obviously there are cases of excessive ______ <------ (insert vice here), but in general I would suggest you view internet forums as a place to sift through various tidbits of good information, not a social site with which to judge people’s personalities. If you want to do that, there’s always facebook (that was a friendly and playful tone, with a hint of sarcasm)</p>

<p>= )</p>

[Creekland]

<p>

Yes, it is true that I have a rationalist worldview that understands that students who go to Princeton are going to be advantaged over students that go to Cal State Dominguez hills.

</p>

<p>And who’s comparing those two? Certainly not anyone here. If you look back at my post even I said that not all schools are created equal and definitely not for every major.</p>

<p>

Regardless of what all of your friends are telling you about getting into medical school, the key stat is your MCAT score. Second is GPA. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Had you actually read the FAQ, this is what they say. I’m not sure I’d call the advisers my friends when I doubt they even know me. I’ve only read on that section, not posted. For what it’s worth, it’s also what I’ve been told by experts in the field.</p>

<p>

If you think advising people to go to a program that gets them high grades due to a lack of competition is going to make them a better doctor, or provide them with the same level of preparation for the MCAT that a school like Hopkins or MIT or Stanford will then you are sadly mistaken.

</p>

<p>This is where they disagree with you. Personally, I feel they have MUCH more experience in the field than you do.</p>

<p>

Sure, students from lesser known schools can and do get in to med school, but did you ever stop to ask which med schools the majority of those students were going to? I can promise you that a 3.6 from Stanford means more than a 3.95 from Hope College.

</p>

<p>Yes, I plan to be checking. And I bet your promise is wrong based on what the true experts say - assuming equal MCAT scores.</p>

<p>

Not to mention, most of the Ivies (less MIT, Cal Tech, and Stanford) practice grade inflation to compensate for the increased level of competition, so the idea that junior will have higher grades at a weaker school due to less competition is absurd.

</p>

<p>Actually, some of the schools you mention DEFLATE grades - according to those on the FAQ. </p>

<p>

Finally, the idea that colleges intentionally spread a wide net across multiple universities is somewhat true, but there is nothing to suggest it is intentional.

</p>

<p>Only words typed on the FAQ from those that have actually been in the admissions process who have actually selected candidates and talk about diversity.</p>

<p>

They simply take the best applicants, many of whom do not come from the Ivies. What did those applicants from lesser schools all have? Top TEST SCORES. Which, once again, is what really matters in terms of paper qualifications. The difference? Top schools are feeder schools and send dozens of students into top colleges each year. Lesser schools MAY send 1, or perhaps 2, at best.

</p>

<p>But this might mean 10 of 30 get interviews from a ‘top’ school. It tends to also mean both that applied from the ‘lesser’ school got interviews. Which percentage is greater? Again - all from the FAQ.</p>

<p>

Once again, the original poster asked for NATIONALLY RANKED programs. When people respond with things like, “Hope College” as an answer to that question it’s rather obvious they are either shouting out the only Christian university they know or the one they go to.

</p>

<p>Not necessarily. Your response only means YOU haven’t heard of it and don’t care to check into it. In some cases your thoughts might be valid. In others they aren’t. I’m willing to do my own research to check them out.</p>

<p>

The correct answer is that there simply are no nationally known Christian pre-med programs.

</p>

<p>Well, many non-Christians won’t consider a Christian school anyway. For those of us that will - including those that want diversity in their grad schools - I think the view is different.</p>

<p>

As a matter of principle, I’m not going to hold your hand because you think I was too blunt or you wish I wouldn’t address some of the egregious errors people spout off from time to time.

</p>

<p>Who’s asking you to hold anyone’s hand? We assume we’re all intelligent enough to read a post and take out of it what we want. Some of your posts I actually partially or totally agree with.</p>

<p>

To (finally) answer the OP, the best Christian pre-med program you’ll find out there is at Wheaton College. The quality of student and facilities at Wheaton is heads and shoulders above the rest of the protestant competition. Grove City is worth looking at for a backup. For nursing, definitely do Biola, but choose Wheaton or Grove City over Biola if you want to be a doctor.

</p>

<p>Wheaton and Grove City definitely get the top students in. I’ve even said that before - looking purely at stats and test scores. Grove City, I know, doesn’t do research. I’m still unsure about Wheaton. My son is a sophomore so I’m not putting a ton of effort into searching just yet. I need to get my oldest off to college first. Wheaton does send several of it’s grads on to post grad medical (I think their site said 9% of grads - not percentage from those that apply).</p>

<p>For us, undergrad research is a must. Hence we might go Christian or secular pending who offers what and what place creates the best fit. Again, I’m not the OP, but I want the most options there are out there to explore. And again, your advice about picking the top grad places to look for undergrad goes directly against the majority of the advice from people who are BTDT.</p>

[phear_me]

<p>Creekland, one thing I forgot to mention that would be helpful for you:</p>

<p>I strongly suggest having your son apply to all of the top schools with BS/MD programs. This takes uncertainty out of the equation, as getting into med school is the hardest part. </p>

<p>Finally, I agree with you that schools like MIT and Hopkins practice grade deflation, which will hurt you at med school, as I pointed out in my most recent post. But most of the Ivies inflate grades and give you both the prestige boost and GPA to get into a top med school. Having been a student at MIT, do NOT send your son there as the workload is astronomical (literally 3 times what other ug students do, not an exaggeration) and grades suffer as a result. While some ivies may get more preference for discounting than others, all top schools get discounting over mediocre schools, i.e. comparing UCLA 3.75 to Drexel 3.9 = UCLA win.</p>

[IBclass06]

<p>

@phear_me

To (finally) answer the OP, the best Christian pre-med program you’ll find out there is at Wheaton College. The quality of student and facilities at Wheaton is heads and shoulders above the rest of the protestant competition.

Incorrect. Hoosiermom was quite correct to suggest Hope.</p>

<p>More students at Hope have had their research published in major journals (per capita) than students at virtually any of the elite private universities, including my own alma mater. Hope students also do exceedingly well in securing Goldwater scholarships, REU fellowships, and the like. In terms of quantity and quality of publications, the faculty at Hope compares very favorably to the vast majority of LACs (with Mudd, Swat, Reed, and a few others being exceptions). I have posted the statistics for this in the past. </p>

<p>I never bothered to look into Christian schools, so I am unfortunately unable to make any further suggestions except Earlham if a Quaker school is acceptable (apparently Catholic/Jesuit schools are not, for reasons beyond me). I wholeheartedly second the Hope suggestion, however.</p>

[Creekland]

<p>

More students at Hope have had their research published in major journals (per capita) than students at virtually any of the elite private universities, including my own alma mater. Hope students also do exceedingly well in securing Goldwater scholarships, REU fellowships, and the like. In terms of quantity and quality of publications, the faculty at Hope compares very favorably to the vast majority of LACs (with Mudd, Swat, Reed, and a few others being exceptions). I have posted the statistics for this in the past.

</p>

<p>Many thanks for this info… It is definitely a school we’ll be considering.</p>

[phear_me]

<p>To IBClass06</p>

<p>Anyone can spout off “statistics” without evidence. Thus, the following questions/points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Which “major” journals were these students published in?</p></li>
<li><p>Are these numbers for premed students, or all majors? I find it quite difficult to believe that a private college with 3,500 undergrads and an endowment less than $150 million without an MD program or PhD level science programs is doing the kind of research that gets legions of undergrads published in major journals. </p></li>
<li><p>I’ll put Hopkins/MIT/Stanford undergrad research publication numbers against Hope College any day of the week. Do you really think they’ll stand up as you claim?</p></li>
<li><p>And THIS is the really important one: Provide a link to a credible source documenting your claims, or it never happened.</p></li>
</ol>

[IBclass06]

<p>A quick glance at its website would tell you much of what you asked.

Each year, approximately 160 students participate in summer research at the college. A recent report by ResearchCrossroads found that Hope held more funding from the National Science Foundation and National Institutes of Health than any other liberal arts college in Michigan [granted, this is not that impressive].

Consistently through the years, Hope has held more grants through the National Science Foundation’s “Research Experiences for Undergraduates” program than any other liberal arts college in the country and more than all but a handful of institutions of any type - including research universities - nationwide. The Research Corporation ranked Hope eighth out of 136 institutions in research publications per faculty member from 1991 to 2000.

During the past 10 years (1999 through 2008), 90 percent of the Hope applicants whose grade point averages were 3.4 or above were accepted by medical schools.</p>

<p>During the past 10 years (1998 through 2007), 89 percent of the Hope applicants with a grade point average of 3.2 or better were accepted into dental schools.

The National Science Foundation identified Hope as one of the top 25 liberal arts institutions for training students who receive Ph.D.s in science (NSF report 96-334, 1996).

The productivity and impact of our research program is high in comparison to other liberal arts colleges: Hope College ranked 9th in number of papers, 10th in number of citations and 12th in impact of publications in the life sciences, as measured by Science Citation Index (Garfield, E., Current Contents 25: 5-11, 1993).

The program in the sciences emphasizes collaborative faculty/student learning, and approximately 85 percent of the college’s science and mathematics majors conduct research. Since 1990, more than 300 students have co-authored research publications with faculty.

A quick calculation shows that this averages to about 15 students a year, or 0.5% of the school. That would mean that a school of Stanford’s size would have to produce 30 or more co-authors a year. I will admit that this may possibly be the case at some schools that essentially require research (e.g. Princeton), but even my university (a science-heavy top 10 school) didn’t produce that many publications.</p>

[ahwatukeemiller]

<p>I have been investigating basically the same things and the best solution I have seen so far seems to be Baylor University in Waco Texas. It is not as strongly evangalistic as Wheaton, but has a larger and stronger science and pre-med program with an apparently solid christian foundation. It appears to be well respected and fairly selective with an attractive honors college. </p>

<p>I have visited both Wheaton and Baylor with my daughter. Baylor is very open and overt about their christian principals but the active Greek scene and leeway in their research suggests more diversity in the students, faculty, and research. They are not associated with a teaching hospital, which limits them somewhat, but this is perhaps not as important for pre-med. I would be interested in other opinions on Baylor.</p>

[phear_me]

<p>Any illusions about Baylor being a Christian institution are just that, illusions.</p>

[Creekland]

<p>

Any illusions about Baylor being a Christian institution are just that, illusions.

</p>

<p>What makes you say that? I can see that description applying to Duke or Wake Forest - probably even Davidson, but Baylor? They still ‘seem’ to promote themselves as a Christian U on their web site and through their graduates.</p>

<p>Are they tending liberal like Calvin or Messiah? I’m seriously wondering why you say their Christianity is an illusion.</p>

[berryberry61]

<p>^^^ Creekland - not to hijack the thread or divert your question, but I am curious as to why you say Calvin and Messiah are tending liberal. They are a couple D possibly was thinking of visiting and I am curious as to what you mean here. Thanks</p>

[VastlyOverrated]

<p>Creekland - Of course people would say that about Duke and Wake Forest…neither has a religious affiliation. Though Baylor does still claim to have Baptist ties I’ve found that most large religious universities (BC, Notre Dame, etc.) don’t have a strong religious culture when compared to small Christian colleges. An exception would be somewhere like BYU.</p>

[Whistle_Pig]

<p>

Op, one plug for LAC’s and research at schools where there are no graduate programs, the undergraduates will not have graduate students to compete with for the choice research opportunities.

Sound counsel. Especially @ the large, research-focused institutions. If you’re familiar, undergrads tend to be the cash cows where lecture mode is king and research projects and refereed journal articles tend to compete for the queen spot. </p>

<p>If you’re really interested in doing undergrad research, beyond Wheaton and a very modest few others, research opportunities @ Christian institutions can be non-existent or window dressing. Why? Because in teaching institutions, substantial resources and motivation are required to nurture genuine research, more than glossed-over, embellished lab experiments. </p>

<p>One thought: Hope is a wonderful institution, used to be very plugged into “The Power of Positive Thinking” pastor in NYC. While rooted in the Reformed Church tradition, I doubt Hope considers itself a “Christian” college anymore. Too much worldly, humanistic influence and desire to become the Harvard of Holland. Again, a great place if Christianity is not front and center. Still loads of it there. Don’t confuse the seminary w/ the college, though.</p>

[Creekland]

<p>

I am curious as to why you say Calvin and Messiah are tending liberal. They are a couple D possibly was thinking of visiting and I am curious as to what you mean here. Thanks

</p>

<p>I’m going to answer this via pm right after this post.</p>

<p>To the others - thanks for your thoughts as mine was indeed a genuine question.</p>

[sarakp]

<p>Creekland, i am interested too, can you respond in the forum on the liberal tend of Messiah and Calvin, I am interested in applying to both :)</p>

[Creekland]

<p>With Christian colleges, more conservative ones tend to take the Bible literally (unchanging) - some get ultra conservative with dress codes and such, and others don’t. Social issues remain conservative.</p>

<p>More liberal Christian colleges tend to take the Bible figuratively (interpretations needed, some flaws). There’s seldom any dress code. Social issues tend liberal. </p>

<p>Messiah and Calvin are two Christian colleges that used to be considered conservative that have turned more liberal based on teachings and college life.</p>

<p>Neither liberal nor conservative is bad if it is a good fit for the student. My query was merely wondering if Baylor were similar and that was why it was being put into the category of “Christian in name only.”</p>

<p>Those that are Christian in name only tend to not have anything to do with the Bible anymore - or not require it anyway.</p>

<p>There’s such a wide range of “Christian” college options that I was trying to interpret what was said about Baylor… it’s not one I’m as familiar with, but one we might be interested in.</p>

[WuTangForeva]

<p>kind of an oxymoron </p>

<p>Kind of hard to make sense of biology if you cherry pick genetic data to reject evolution. Or I guess you can doublethink.</p>