Getting residency interviews and matching, even for competitive residencies, seems to more largely depend on Step scores, LORs, MSPE/Dean’s Letter, Personal Statement, Clerkship grades, quartile ranking, and graduating from a US med school.
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So a student who went to university of Alaska Fairbanks decided to take all the premed courses. Ones he’s done, he can’t apply to med school because people will say. You need to go to a good school. I don’t understand.
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Absolutely not. And if that student had very good grades and a strong MCAT, then there’s a good chance he’ll get into UWash SOM.
Nobody said that, LOL! I just said it would be advantageous to go to a T50 school because adcoms like to see you that worked hard to get into those schools and challenged yourself in the rigorous classes.
Basically, a 3.8 GPA at University of Alaska Fairbanks is not the same as a 3.8 GPA at Dartmouth College. Adcoms know there is much more rigor at Dartmouth - they aren’t stupid!
64.85% of grades given out at Dartmouth are A- or higher.
But also, where is your evidence that a 3.8 from Dartmouth is worth more?
Medical schools want a divverse group of smart people who are passionate about making a difference and helping others That said, they will reach deep and accept students from all backgrounds and schools who show they can do the work and have an appetite for the work. The most important thing is to make the most of the opportunities you are presented with, do your best academically, put in the work, and develop yourself broadly as a person. The school you come from means less unless you are at Harvard and want to go to Yale med school and vice versa. Then it matters. They like to take their own and from each other. That’s not most med schools.
Could someone please explain the STEP scores? Thank you.
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Nobody said that, LOL! I just said it would be advantageous to go to a T50 school because adcoms like to see you that worked hard to get into those schools and challenged yourself in the rigorous classes.
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You are confusing admissions to undergrad with admissions to med school. Med schools aren’t really looking to see if you “challenged yourself in the rigorous classes.” They don’t care if you majored in an easier major or the harder engineering. They don’t give the engineering student a “pass” for having a lower GPA because his major was more rigorous or from a “better” school.
and, SOM Adcoms could care less that you worked hard to get into a top undergrad. They really do not care about that. They’re just as happy with the late bloomer who may have been a screw-up in high school, and therefore went wherever he could get in…did well, and is now applying to med school.
Much of the premed/med school admissions process is counter-intuitive…that’s why many of your statements have been challenged.
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Basically, a 3.8 GPA at University of Alaska Fairbanks is not the same as a 3.8 GPA at Dartmouth College. Adcoms know there is much more rigor at Dartmouth - they aren't stupid!
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Where is your evidence of that? Where is your evidence that the premed prereqs are harder at DC?
Either way, med school Adcoms who are reviewing med school apps aren’t looking for a bunch of bookish nerds who always excelled to get their tushies into tippy top schools. Med schools want well-rounded smart people…who are found on a variety of campuses.
Oh…and UWash SOM, which is a top med school, is going to choose an AK instate UAlaska applicant over the Dartmouth applicant whose home state isn’t WWAMI.
@mom2collegekids
“Med schools aren’t really looking to see if you “challenged yourself in the rigorous classes.””
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That’s certainly an opinion, but I don’t think that’s right. Premed as you said is not the same at every school. Premed at UAlaska is not the same as premed at Dartmouth College. Like you said, everyone has to work hard at a top school. Adcoms are aware of that and favor students who can do well in very rigorous schools. You can disagree still, but I’m just relaying information from health professionals and advising. I don’t think students should go to “easy” schools for high GPAs because adcoms will catch on to that.
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“Oh…and UWash SOM, which is a top med school, is going to choose an AK instate UAlaska applicant over the Dartmouth applicant whose home state isn’t WWAMI.”
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No comments on that as I never talked about UWash.
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@usualhopeful
I hope you aren’t suggesting that Dartmouth students get easy A’s? I know many Dartmouth students who work their butts off to get good grades and they aren’t afraid to say the classes are very challenging. You can never compare the rigor of UAlaska to an ivy league school.
@Dustyfeathers Step 1 is part of the United States Medical Licensing Examination. The scores are used to help screen applicants for residency.
“You can never compare the rigor of UAlaska to an ivy league school”
Oh right, students at state schools are lazy in comparison to Ivy League wonders. Or, students at a wide variety of colleges work hard.
^ I never said state school students are lazy. However, suggesting the classes at UAlaska are as tough as Dartmouth’s is asinine.
@emory323
I guess we agree (I just didn’t like the tone and, if I’m honest with myself, have been excessively snarky recently) You’re right in that the curves are going to be more friendly at UAlaska.
But med schools won’t really take that into account, or the average GPAs at med schools would be much lower.
Yes, if the Dartmouth premed has the same GPA, MCAT, clinical experience, etc., the UA grad would probably lose (except at UWash, with its preference for certain state residents). But in reality a Dartmouth premed is more likely to be weeded before the application process.
Interesting conversation… My two cents (from seeing years of students leave and go on to college, then return with their stories).
Colleges differ. Anyone who thinks they don’t should get examples of tests and compare them (at least math/science - my specialties). A national Top 30 research school is going to have far more depth than a regional Top 30 school of similar size (using a very specific comparison in my mind - my guy and an academic comparable peer of his, but I could use oodles more). A top student can do well at either place, but can easily be bored at the lower level place. An average “good” (college-bound) student could be really challenged at the higher level place - esp if high school was easy and they skated by without learning to study. Either place can trip either student up if too much emphasis is placed on that party minor or if studying gets pushed aside. Many students who go in thinking pre-med (any school) change their mind when they see the work needed, competition, or even just other opportunities that appeal to them more.
But both places get kids into med school. It doesn’t even take Top 30 regional TBH. I’ve seen kids get into (US) med school from such academic “well-knowns” as Pensacola Christian.
Why? (My theory) Because as stated before by others, med schools are training doctors for our whole population and they want representatives of that population to serve it. They don’t just pick randomly. They look for the top academic go-getters from pretty much any school. These students stand out first by their MCAT score and GPA - then second by their extra curriculars. Regardless of the school chosen, they can be equally successful at med school and as doctors.
So… if heading toward med school (or thinking you are), consider your school carefully. If you have top scores and do well on things like AP tests, plus have the drive to keep going academically, then by all means, pick a top school if one is financially affordable to you. My guy did, has had wonderful opportunities, loved it, and will very likely get into a good med school (some would say top med school - there are differences in research - which is what he is after). His peer picked the lower level school, got a free undergrad education (but has been envious at all the research opportunities and more in depth study my guy has been able to do), and will also be going to med school, albeit, without the research part, etc.
Both will become doctors. The school didn’t matter on that. What mattered was that both applied themselves, got decent GPAs and MCAT scores, and stood out at their respective places.
NOT everyone wants to push themselves into depth in undergrad (or is able to keep up with the top students). That’s ok. What you learn in undergrad isn’t really needed for med school. They teach you med school stuff in med school. So if you’re NOT interested in going into super depth (research level) or find that these schools aren’t affordable, pick one that is and DO WELL there. Pick a major you like too. It’s easier to do well when you’re enjoying what you’re studying.
State vs private means diddly. There are top, average, and other of both.
Don’t assume you will be the (only) top student if you pick a lower level place. You aren’t the only one getting this bit of info. It gets repeated often. You will still have to work to distinguish yourself. If you aren’t willing to do that, many of us don’t necessarily want you getting into med school…
And if you are a top student and want to go to that top school, definitely don’t assume you’ll be top there. You’ll still have to work to distinguish yourself too. But it can be done - successfully, happily, whatever description you want that means “had a good time while there” - and yes, many “top” med schools (research-wise) will note it. It doesn’t give you an auto-in though. And you could still be in sitting next to a top student from a lower level school if they were super impressive (happens).
Most students who believe they want to go to medical school ultimately choose not to (1/4 of my college class were premed freshman year and about 5-10% ultimately applied (and 90+% were accepted). It would make more sense to go to a school you will be happy at and have a great chance to go to medical school.
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Premed as you said is not the same at every school.
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I didn’t say that.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I said. I’m not saying that the premed coursework is easier at different schools. The prereqs are hard everywhere. I’ve said that at top schools you’re going to have a classroom full of top students in the prereqs.
Imagine this scenario…
Imagine that you’re going to run in a 20 mile race around a standard track.
20 mile race? Exhausting!
Each race will have 500 people running.
There will be 2 races that day.
The top 100 finishers of each race will be handed a med school admission.
You are a very strong runner, maybe Olympic quality…or just short of that.
The first race is full of Olympic-quality runners…maybe 80%.
The second race is full of very good runners and maybe 20% Olympic-quality runners.
If you’re running the first race, you’re seriously risking that you’ll end up being a 101st or worse finisher.
If you’re running the second race, your chances are better that you’ll end up being one of the first 100 finishers.
Again, the 20 mile run is hard no matter if you run the first race or second.
When you’re premed at a top school, you’re running in the first race.
@emory323
I forgot to add…
In real life, the MCAT is the great equalizer. So if you’re thinking that med schools will pooh pooh the 3.8+ GPA from a lesser school, they won’t if that is accompanied by a strong MCAT score.
I was reading the med school admissions results posted by Vanderbilt. I saw that 102 Vandy applicants had applied to one of the med schools that accepted my son (whose undergrad ranked 96). Only 6 of those 102 Vandy applicants were accepted to that private med school (which has no state preference at all)
The analogy above sort of works, but the marathon is different too. As I said before, to those who feel there are no differences in the caliber of the classes, check out tests. It’s how I determined there IS a difference - a huge difference in many cases.
The extra challenge involved is loved by some and needed for some research, but it’s not needed for med school, so if one doesn’t love it or doesn’t think they are competitive, choose accordingly.
In other schools, one can also get to the research level - it’s just generally contained in higher level classes, not the intro “pre-med” courses (eg, not Bio 101). Majors will “get it.” Everyone needing the “basic credit” will not.
The analogy works…maybe not perfectly…but it provides the needed image.
The analogy also shows that those in the first race who don’t end up with a Golden Ticket are not “unqualified for med school” and would not “flunk out” if they had gotten in…as was suggested in an earlier post.
The truth is, there are far more “smart enough” people who have what it takes to do well in med school than there are seats. Does anyone really think that in any given year there are only about 20,000 truly “smart enough” folks? Not only is it likely are many/most of the rejected qualified, but many of those who were long-weeded had the smarts as well.
Weeding is the only way to get those numbers down so that there aren’t gazillions of graduating premeds with no place to go.
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check out tests. It’s how I determined there IS a difference - a huge difference in many cases.
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I don’t doubt that. When a prof needs to weed in prereqs at a top school, the tests will be more difficult. Like I mentioned above…the prof’s tests may include materials/concepts not covered in lecture. S/he is trying to make sure that the entire class of ACT 34/35/36 students don’t end up with a 95%+ on the tests.
And there shows the risk!
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Don’t assume you will be the (only) top student if you pick a lower level place. You aren’t the only one getting this bit of info. It gets repeated often. You will still have to work to distinguish yourself. If you aren’t willing to do that, many of us don’t necessarily want you getting into med school…
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Very true. Very true. That’s why in my analogy in #54, I purposely described the runners in the second race as being very good runners and some Olympic quality runners.
This is what I’ve observed at the so-called “very good but not top ranked schools”…
Freshman year, a gazillion kids declare themselves either premed or engineering majors. The students may have ACT scores ranging from 24 - 36 (or SAT equivalent ).
Freshman year, both groups (premed/eng’g) are taking many of the same classes…bio, Chem, Calc). Often, those whose scores are below 28 are weeded immediately…a bunch after the first or second test…and more by the end of first semester! By the end of sophomore year, the survivors are mostly the ACT 30-36 crowd. These are the quality of students who could also be found at Top 50 schools.
Med schools know this. Maybe that’s why some med schools are asking what the applicants’ ACT or SAT score was.
I recall reading some time back that ACT and MCAT scores tended to correspond being within 2 points of each other on average. They found no correlation with SAT scores.
That memory has come back to me now that middle son was asked his ACT score (and if he had taken the SAT, that too, but he didn’t). I wonder if some schools are keeping track?
FWIW, middle son took the new MCAT, but if one looks at what are supposed to be comparable scores to the old one, he’s right in there with correlation. His MCAT score (if it were old style) is two points higher than his ACT score.
Just a rabbit trail I suppose, but an interesting one.