<p>I’ve graduated with economics and poli sci from a fairly small liberal arts university and having worked nearly a year in the banking industry. Having some direct contact with engineers from various firms, I realized that I’d much rather be an engineer than a banker. What’s the best way to get into engineering with a relatively shallow math background (just differential calculus and stats). I’ve contemplated about getting a second bachelor’s degree but I’ve heard from various sources that this basically a waste of time. I’m willing to take classes from my local university to make up the gap in mathematics. Can any engineering grad students give me advice on which math classes/other classes I should take to increase my chances of getting into an engineering program?</p>
<p>An architecture major asked this question in a previous thread - he wanted to get a master’s degree in structural engineering. He’d taken a good bit of math and some basic design classes if I recall correctly. I asked my dad, a structural engineering professor, about it. He said that the student would HAVE to get a BS in engineering before being admitted to grad school in structures, period. Maybe someone knows of a school that would look at you differently, though.</p>
<p>Most of the schools I know of require an undergrad degree in engineering.
Even going from another engineering field (for grad) to another would require you to take the deficiencies, let alone going from a non-engineering degree.</p>
<p>Thus, your best bet to switch to engineering is a second bachelors degree</p>
<p>It’s possible to get into engineering grad school with an engineering degree from a different engineering discipline, or even from a related science or math discipline. But it would be very unusual (if not impossible) to be admitted to an engineering grad school with an econ/polysci background. Even if did happen, the odds of successfully completing the program would be low. Would suggest the second bachelor’s route instead. </p>
<p>As an alternative way to enter the engineering field, consider an MBA in engineering management. Your econ/poly sci degree and banking experience might make you well suited to work in administration or management at an engineering firm, even if you don’t do the actual hands-on engineering.</p>
<p>Look at Boston University’s LEAPS program. I’m in your boat too, contemplating engineering with the same kind of background.</p>
<p>Thanks for the advice, I’ve been reading further on second bachelor degrees and apparently the rule of thumb seems to be they’re a waste of time with the exception for engineering and nursing. Thanks for the tip on BU’s LEAPS program, do you know of any similar programs? Unfortunately BU does not have environmental or civil engineering which at the moment are my top choices.</p>
<p>If you are considering civil or environmental specifically, then there is another reason to get the second bachelor’s, rather to attempt a master’s.</p>
<p>Civil and environmental engineers, unlike most other engineers, typically pursue a state Professional Engineer’s license. State laws vary, but all states prefer (and some strictly require) an ABET-accredited engineering degree for licensure. ABET normally accredits BS degrees – not graduate degrees. This may change in the future, but that’s how it is right now. </p>
<p>So even if you could get an MS degree in civil or environmental, your future career in these fields might still be handicapped, because the degree wouldn’t be ABET-accredited. Without an accredited degree, you would likely be delayed or prevented from obtaining a PE license, which is typically an important career milestone in civil engineering and related fields. Most non-civils never get the PE, but most civils do. </p>
<p>You might check with your state engineering board (they should have a website) to see if non-ABET degrees are PE-qualifying in your state. Or ask a local civil engineer.</p>
<p>If you are considering civil or environmental specifically, then there is another reason to get the second bachelor’s, rather to attempt a master’s.</p>
<p>Civil and environmental engineers, unlike most other engineers, typically pursue a state Professional Engineer’s license. State laws vary, but all states prefer (and some strictly require) an ABET-accredited engineering degree for licensure. ABET normally accredits BS degrees – not graduate degrees. This may change in the future, but that’s how it is right now. </p>
<p>So even if you could get an MS degree in civil or environmental, your future career in these fields might still be handicapped, because the degree wouldn’t be ABET-accredited. Without an accredited degree, you would likely be delayed or prevented from obtaining a PE license, which is typically an important career milestone in civil engineering and related fields. </p>
<p>You might check with your state engineering board to see if non-ABET degrees are PE-qualifying in your state. Or ask a local civil engineer.</p>
<p>Does anyone know any programs similar to BU’s LEAP program or alternatively recommend decent engineering programs that are open second bachelor’s students? I’ve heard that although the UC schools mention they take second bachelor students occasionally depending on situation, I’ve heard that in real life this almost never happens. One of the problems I’ve noticed after looking through various engineering programs is that second bachelor students are considered along the same criteria as transfer students and many engineering programs require at least some prereq courses in physics/math/chem to be accepted for transfer (due to my econ/poli sci background I lack these courses). </p>
<p>I’ve also considered the possibility of just making up courses and applying directly, although I’m not sure which would be faster, cheaper, and more likely to get into a decent graduate engineering program. Corbett makes an excellent point with the accreditation issue and I’m not completely certain of the details, but I think if you take certain undergrad courses from an ABET accredited school and then go for a MS, you can still get licensed as a professional engineer. Although it seems that if you get an MS without taking any undergrad engineering classes (not sure how such a program would accept you in the first place), it’s possible to get a masters in engineering without being able to get licensed as a PE.</p>
<p>It seems to me that it would just be almost impossible to get a master’s in civil without a bachelor’s. It’s not just the math and physics you’re missing out on - it’s a lot of ENGINEERING! Grad school to me seemed like “gravy.” I’d gotten the meat and potatoes in undergrad. In structures, for example, I had to have had concrete design for my BS before taking prestressed concrete design for my MS. You also learn a lot about building codes as an undergrad, and believe me, there is a lot to learn! Trying to do that in a compressed time in grad school would be daunting. Frankly, I would be kind of leary of a school that would let me do this. I don’t think it’s the best for you. (Maybe “pure” civil is different, but I don’t think so.)</p>
<p>Thanks for the insight MaineLonghorn. I’ve posted this question on another forum and another potential problem is that a lot of engineering schools simply do not allow second bachelors in at all. These schools recommend taking the prereqs at a local school before applying. I understand that without a BS lowers my chances, but in your experience do you think there is much differentiation between getting a BS versus taking all the prereqs separately? I mean from a knowledge standpoint it should make no difference if I were to take all of the same classes but just not get credited a BS.</p>
<p>The best people to talk to about this really would be the graduate admissions people of your prospective civil engineering departments. Rustle up a few programs you’re interested in and just start calling them and asking these questions.</p>
<p>I know that in the graduate curriculum handouts at UIUC for structures, there was definitely the <em>implication</em> that you could possibly get a masters with a non-engineering background, but that there were a heapload of courses that you’d have to take first. Each department has its own criteria, though, and if you call them up and ask them what to do, they’ll either tell you that it’s impossible to do, or they’ll tell you exactly what you need to do in order to get admitted to their program. With us, this is all just speculation, which is good for the “we felt like we really needed all those classes we took as undergrads” point of view, but for steps you need to take in order to get where you want to go, you might as well talk to the gatekeepers of the door you’re looking to go through.</p>
<p>
Well… it’s not absolutely impossible… it’s just the probability is very very small…
Some schools allow non-engineering students to get an MS in CivilE provided that you have impressive undergrad gpa and gre score. You also need to complete the deficiencies in order to graduate. This means you’d have to take whatever classes undergrad students take in addition to grad classes… </p>
<p>Bear in mind that you have to have a 3.0 for grad and some undergrad professors are tougher than grad.</p>
<p>
The rules vary widely, depending on the state. There is no way to generalize: you have to review local laws, on a state-by-state basis. Note also that the rules are subject to change at any time, depending on the actions of the state legislature and state board. </p>
<p>In some states, you <em>must</em> have an ABET degree for the PE, which normally means the BS. In such states, you cannot qualify for licensure with “only” an MS in engineering. If you plan to work in one of these states, then the MS track obviously has a major downside.</p>
<p>In other states, an MS degree alone can be qualifying (typically if it is issued by a dept. that is ABET-accredited at the BS level). Extra work experience may be required. In these states, the MS track is obviously more feasible.</p>
<p>Finally, in some states, you can actually get a PE license with no engineering degree at all, if you have many years of acceptable work experience. This is more of a theoretical loophole, though. In practice, it is difficult to get suitable engineering work experience without any kind of engineering degree.</p>
<p>If this seems confusing, it’s because it is. The only thing that it is universally qualifying for PE licensure is an ABET BS degree; anything else will have limitations of varying severity, depending on the state. This is not an issue for the vast majority of Civil PEs, because the vast majority do have ABET BS degrees.</p>
<p>
Actually it does happen, but normally for those with bachelor’s degrees in related sciences. For example, a geotechnical MS program might admit a student with a BS in geology, or a water resources MS program might admit a student with a BS in hydrology. The science students may have to make up some deficiencies, but there is an expectation that students who have proven that they can handle physical science and math can pick up the necessary engineering knowlege as well.</p>
<p>However, it is much less likely that this approach would work for an econ/poli sci grad.</p>
<p>rheidzan:</p>
<p>I know it probably varies by program, but just to be absolutely clear for my own understanding, does this refer to being allowed into the master’s program with little to no eng. background and being required to take the undergrad requirement prior to graduation or does this refer to requiring a very high GPA/GRE AND taking numerous undergrad courses before being let into the program. In summary, is there a bias towards the individual with a engineering BS even if the non-engineering BS took the exact same classes outside of an undergrad program?</p>
<p>For example, I’ve heard of people with english majors going to masters in neuroscience. And from what I’ve heard they just take a bunch of make-up classes after they graduate with a BA in english and some make it to decent programs.</p>
<p>From all the replies here I’m leaning toward a second-bachelors program. Anyone know of engineering schools that are lenient on second-bachelor students (I know many are not). What about 5-year BS-MS programs that are lenient on second bachelors?</p>
<p>
Bias where? Industry or school?
From my experience, the industry doesn’t care if your UG major is music as long as you have a BS or MS in CivE and a PE, and can do the job.
As far as school, there was a former pilot with history major and an architect taking the same class as me. The pilot only said that he was required to take the deficiencies and to meet the prerequisite prior to taking the classes… I guess it depends on school. </p>
<p>I second aibarr’s suggestion to meet with the graduate admission counselor.</p>
<p>Check in withe the Liberal Arts College where you got your BA. They may have a relationship with a sister college, a sort of 3/2 program, where your humanities will transfer neatly into the sister engineering school’s program, easing the way to the second undergrad degree.</p>
<p>I have a related problem; I’m currently a biology major attending a university with no engineering school. I’m planning on attending grad school for environmental engineering, and though many schools only accept BS engineering candidates, environmental engineering graduate programs in particular seem to be open to non-engineering majors (ussually only science/math though). However, I’ve been worried about accreditation, obtaining licensure, and becoming a PE with just a masters or phD and no BS engineering degree. Does anyone happen to know if states are more lax in that respect for environmental engineering? Also, will I be at a major disadvantage by not having the “meat and potatoes” undergrad engineering staples?</p>
<p>I had a friend with a very similar situation. Here’s the bottom line, it’s not just about math and the general science requirements, but also the engineering requirements and the engineering design requirements. For example, if you plan on getting an MS in Civil, major in Structures, you have to take advanced courses (ex. prestressed concrete, advanced steel design, structural dynamics, etc…). I will take the prestressed concrete example and take you deeper into the requirements. In order to take this course, you MUST have reinforced concrete design, in which the pre-req for reinf. concrete is structural analysis and the pre-req for that is Mechanics of Materials and the pre-req for that is statics, dynamics and Calculus 3 and differential equations, and teh pre req for those are Calculus 2, calculus 1 ans so forth. I think that once you talk to a graduate advisor in the Civil Engineering Department, not only will they recommend you getting a BS in Civl first, but depending on the state, if you don’t have a BS in an accredited ABET engineering school, you will never be able to sit down for the PE. I suggest that if you have the time to go for another bachelor’s, do it, otherwise you might just have to work in management in an engineering firm, but will not be able to do engineering work.</p>