Big Fish or Little Fish - Public or Private HS - Rugby or Eagle Scout

Parents Forum
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<p>I am interested in opinions of parents who’s kids have been accepted to upper tier colleges. </p>

<p>Which is a better scenario?</p>

<p>Bright child, but not genius–goes to low income city public school and will stand out as a star OR send the child to a college prep private school where they will be a shinning star in a galaxy of other shining stars?</p>

<p>Also which activity gives you a better mark on your application–Eagle Scout or 4 + years of HS Rugby team? I am voting Eagle Scout, my girlfriend says Rugby…</p>

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<p>Rugby. Is this a school in the U.S.? Do players wear helmets?</p>

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<p>Life is too short. Do whatever the heart tells you (if it’s you you’re talking about). Curious though, I can see how the choice of schools is mutually exclusive, but why can’t someone be an Eagle Scout AND play rugby?</p>

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<p>Either school would look fine for colleges. Think about the environment where you (or your child) would be happiest. Low-income urban schools can sometimes be very difficult for bright students to navigate, particularly if it’s large and has crime problems. You may find that you are not challenged sufficiently or that class time is spent disciplining students. You may have more opportunities for activities, friendships, mentoring, and academic growth at the private school. Overall go where ever you think you would do best at and be happiest at.</p>

<p>As for rugby or scouts, I’d vote rugby, but either would be great. Can you do both? Have you ever played rugby before? You’ll need a pretty high tolerance for pushing through pain, but it’s a great sport, and quite rewarding.</p>

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<p>Lots of people fantasize that they would have an easier time applying to college if they were the valedictorian at some troubled school, rather than having to compete with 20, 30, 50 indistinguishable classmates for a few choice slots. It’s far from clear, though, that your chances are better in that circumstance. </p>

<p>In my city, with a large, largely low-income school district, very few kids coming out of low-income neighborhood public high schools go to “upper tier” colleges. Last year, all of the kids accepted at Ivy League colleges from the public school system came out of three schools: two very competitive academic magnets, and the wealthiest (and whitest, and most competitive) of the neighborhood high schools. (And the last only accounted for less than 15% of the kids accepted.) There have been exceptions to that pattern in the past. My daughter knew a kid at one of the poorest of the neighborhood high schools who went to Penn. But he was a pretty extraordinary kid, and he was being required to do a lot of remedial work as a condition to his acceptance.</p>

<p>My point is that it’s not the lay-down that it looks to breeze into a “bad” school and look like a star. Strong students like to hang out with other strong students, and strong students learn a lot from being with other strong students, and colleges know that. </p>

<p>Public or private, make certain (if you can) that there are enough strong students at your school to create a real learning environment that will challenge you to your full potential. That’s the right thing to do for yourself regardless of what happens with your college applications, but it’s also the right approach for your college applications, too.</p>

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<p>JHS speaks true.</p>

<p>Would you rather go to a school where every paper you write gets an A because you are head and shoulders above the other not-so-bright kids, or a school where your papers will be fairly graded and commented upon?</p>

<p>A school where the highest math offered is “College Prep Math” which, if truth be told, is nothing more than Pre-calculus, because there aren’t enough kids who are prepared to take Calculus?</p>

<p>Not to mention kids telling you “You’re smart, you don’t have to study” (after a while you’ll come to believe them) and hating you because you’re the one who always spoils the curve. </p>

<p>And having to do remedial work when you get to college b/c you discover you’re just not very well prepared.</p>

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<p>A factor to consider: what will make you FEEL (in terms of confidence as well as actual educational work) most prepared for college? It varies from person to person, but this could be a critical point for some people (and the answer will vary from person to person – hard to know, though if you are looking at an eighth grader and trying to make a decision).</p>

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<p>Only you know the quality of the city public and that is definitely a consideration. A good city public that is less competitive is one thing and a bad public school is quite another. Both my kids attended a somewhat blue collar public high school. We kept them there because we didn’t have the money to pay for private school and then pay for college. This is something to consider because if you are middle class or upper you can’t count on sufficient financial aid for college. Their public school experience had its pros and cons. One thing is don’t assume that just because its a low income public that it won’t be competitive. At my kids high school there are plenty of very smart kids at the top, plenty of challenging classes (not the stereotypical easy As that people talk about) and add to that the fact that it has little name recognition with very selective schools so what happens is that only the top kids get accepted and even among them the Ivies rarely take more than one or two. So don’t just assume that being a big fish in a small pond will do the trick. Another factor to consider is the peer group. At my kids school, most attention is given to the kids who face major challenges (and there are many of them). If you want to do well, you need to motivate yourself and there are many incentives to dumb down. In my Ds case she stayed focused and her peer group was the very top kids but in my son’s case he was more social and had a peer group that was not academic and that hurt his academics. It took him quite a while to get focused and of course there is no shortage of bad influences. But on the flip side the school is very diverse and I think both my kids learned humility (a little), compassion and tolerance from their public school environment (lessons that shouldn’t be minimized). So I guess what I am trying to say is that the decision is more complex than it appears on the surface.</p>

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<p>I’m with Leonine. Don’t assume that attending an urban public school–especially a small magnet school that attracts top students–means easy A’s or an automatic position in the top 10 percent. I also agree that the experience can be extremely valuable in ways that can’t be measured. It’s a complex decision, and a highly individual one.</p>

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<p>and one more thing I forgot to mention (sorry for going on so long). In my Ds class this year, all the top kids (lets say aroound top 10) got into very good schools, not all Ivies, but very good schools. And their peers (the ones who I know of) who went to private school instead did not get into better schools. In a some cases they fared worse, due I suppose to increased competition. So just one more thing that makes the decision more difficult. Perhaps it all comes down to where your kid would be the happiest and thrive, since that is what matters most.</p>

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<p>Leonine makes a very good point here.</p>

<p>The culture at some schools is not supportive of kids who place a high priority on academics. If your child’s friends are not focused on academics, he/she may lose that focus as well.</p>

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<p>My family’s experience bears out what leonine says, too. My children moved from a prestigious, academically oriented private school (class = 95, avg SATs = 1300) to a large public magnet (class = 550, avg SATs = 1100). The “top” 50 kids at each school (whatever that means) were pretty equivalent in ability (but that was more than half the private school class and less than 10% of the public school class). The public school group was much more diverse in every way, much more focused, much more competitive, and also far more oriented towards math and science.</p>

<p>In terms of college admissions, the best 20-30 students at each school had pretty much equivalent results. Below that level, the private school has better results in terms of prestige. But it’s a little hard to compare, because (a) about half the private school kids go to LACs, and only 6-7 kids per year from the public school even apply to LACs, (b) the public school kids are much more likely to choose a less prestigious school because it offers more financial aid, and also much more likely to want to go to college relatively close to home, and (c) the public school produces many more recruited athletes. If you looked at the kid ranked #50 in each class (the private school doesn’t rank, of course), at the public school s/he’s going to Penn State, at the private school s/he’s going to Oberlin or Middlebury. I am pretty convinced that if my kids had stayed at the private school, they would probably be attending exactly the same college.</p>

<p>The private school is warm, intimate, and does an especially good job with smart kids who don’t know what they want, or who may be a little rebellious. The public school is somewhat sink-or-swim, great for focused self-starters, but possible to get lost in. It’s not necessarily a great place for a kid who’s going to stumble more than once or twice (although, for all its bureaucracy, it is surprisingly and impressively personal and caring). Objectively, the private school is almost certainly the better school overall, but the public school is better in some areas, notably science (lots of kids doing research, lots of support for that). And the cultural/ethnic/class/political diversity of the public school is really exciting.</p>

<p>Anyway, my point is that this public school, while not perfect, is easily comparable to a great private school. But that’s because it really has a critical mass of strong, ambitious students, and a learning environment. And because of that, it’s not at all easier to stand out there than at the private school. More troubled public schools would be a different story altogether. And paradoxically, the private school, although known for its academic stars, really has the most value for the kids who aren’t academic stars. No one leaves the private school without a very good education and a very good college placement. You can’t necessarily say that of the public school.</p>

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<p>I’m only responding to your question re rugby vs Eagle scout as others have fully covered the private vs public school debate.</p>

<p>I concur that he should (and can) do both. S was a two season athlete (fall-x-country, spring-track) and also acheived his Eagle rank. I would say that while the sports provided him a great deal in terms of camaraderie, physical discipline, and leadership (he was a co-captain), the Eagle rank is a credential widely recognized for life. </p>

<p>IF I had to choose just one on the basis of long term value, I’d vote for the Eagle.</p>

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<p>There are millions of high school kids who participate in varsity sports. Only about 50,000 boys per year earn their Eagle Scout rank (roughly 5,000 girls earn the GSUSA Gold Award). There is no reason not do both, although it is very difficult for a three-season athlete to fully participate in a Scouting program. At least half of the Eagle Scouts I’ve known were also varsity athletes, including WashDadJr.</p>

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<p>I really got a great deal out of your posts–Thanks everyone! Overall based on what I am seeing and what I know about our local public HS, I think we will be better off biting the bullet and spending the money on private. But it has opened my mind to make sure that I personally check out the public school, not just go off of what I have heard about it. We are a few years away from the ultimate decision, but I need to have a plan A, B, and C…</p>

<p>Hmmm, Interesting Washdad–your stats really put a new perspective on athletics vs. scouts. We may or may not do both (personally my son will most likely be doing swim team and scouts). But the debate had come up with my girlfriend, who is dropping scouts to do rugby with her son. I was just curious as to the theory that rugby is not your “common” sport of basketball, football, soccer, or baseball. It tends to be more popular at the high end universities and so she figures that could be the “ticket” to get him in. I think the the Eagle rank is something special and don’t you become eligible for scholarships because of that rank?</p>

<p>Anyhow great insight–thanks everyone.</p>

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<p>For what it’s worth - the big public where I live (half the kids are low-income, the other half upper-middle class) sent 3 kids to Ivies this year. The expensive college prep sent none. Last year, the big public sent more kids to Ivies than the expensive college prep. The year before that, they sent an equal number. </p>

<p>Which isn’t to say you shouldn’t bite the bullet and choose the prep school. But if Ivies are your ultimate goal – take a good look where the top kids from the public end up at. There are some urban schools that do very well in terms of Ivy placement.</p>

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<p>Our small hs usually sends a couple of kids to Ivy schools, but I have a relative who sends his kids to an expensive prep, and it absolutely feeds into the Ivys and other top schools (much more so than our competitive public hs). The school also costs what I am paying for a residential college and the prep is just a day school. They can afford to send all 3 kids there without worrying about the costs. It must be nice.</p>

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<p>Whether or not you choose to go public or private may also depend on your rank potential at the private school. For example, a friend of mine’s son was a very good student, within the top 10% in a public school, not necessarily the tippy top, but at least 10%, let’s say 50 of 500. He went to a private school where all the students were just like him or brighter. He did well, but at this school, probably fell to, say, 30 of 100. He was still in NHS, did all the Honors classes (not APs, but all Honors), was in a lot of ECs, well liked, responsible, a very good candidate for public university. That’s where he wanted to go, in fact- to one of our public universities. When it came time for the counselor to fill out the evaluation which asks, where does this student fall- top 1%, 10%, 25%, 50%, below 50%- his mother brought up her concern with the GC, “How is it going to look to a college that my son is in the bottom 50%?” Needless to say, the GC’s response was a matter of fact, “Well, not all students are going to get into a university. Some go to community college” This kid was definitely NOT community college material, it would have been a step backwards from what he was used to!</p>

<p>Fortunately, he ended up applying to a rolling wave state university in the top 50 and got in with just a transcript (they did not ask for all the teacher/GC evaluations) and is doing great! But this example begs the question- if he had remained in the public HS, where he was in the top 10%, his chances would have actually been better, even though the education at the private school was more rigorous.</p>

<p>If you can succeed at the private school and still be a stand out student, that’s one thing. If you’re going to end up at the bottom of the pack, it could under certain conditions, hurt you.</p>

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<p>If you have a kid who is in the top ten at the local public, say 50/500, there is a good chance they will be in the top 20 or 30 at the private school 15/100, 20/100 etc, because most of the kids there will be remarkable.</p>

<p>If your kid can be top 5 at the private that is great, but being bumped down from top 10 to 2nd ten could make a difference in the prospects; however, unless your student has some amazing hook it likely won’t make a difference at Ivy type levels. Where it might really come into play is when you need a certain ranking for merit aid or scholarships.</p>

<p>So, go for the best education and experience.</p>

<p>I do not see why you could not do scouting and a sport. My D did rugby, at an international level (hook ;)) as well as two other sports plus student govt and other artsy things, so it is not an either or. Rugby is a less common sport in the US, an outstanding athlete may have a better chance to be noticed and advance to higher levels- if you can find those people who notice those things! The benefit of fewer athletes in competition also is a disadvantage in having fewer resources and opportunities to excel and come to the attention of the national team coaches.</p>

<p>Rugby is a blast and my D still plays at University.</p>

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<p>Folks, there isn’t a simple conversion chart for class rank at a public school and a private school. It depends on the schools, it depends on the community (if there are 10 private schools in a market, they will not all be the same), and it depends, to a large extent, on the kids. A brilliant kid is a brilliant kid, and as long as there is enough of a learning environment not to hold her back, her brilliance, not her school, will determine her college placement. But most kids aren’t brilliant, exactly, and for them a lot may turn on personality fit with the specific schools.</p>

<p>That’s why “go for the best education and experience” (maybe with a “you can afford” attached) is the right advice, no matter what.</p>

<p>Rugby: It may be easier to stand out playing rugby than soccer, but it surely matters that most schools’ rugby teams are clubs. No coach telling the admissions office “Please please please let me have that one.”</p>

<p>Eagle scouts: Scouting barely exists in my kids’ world. I don’t think either of them knows an Eagle Scout.</p>