<p>^^^
I don’t think it can be denied. And there are situations where there just isn’t “time” to use other methods. Life is hurried sometimes. </p>
<p>I wasn’t commenting on whether a smack on the bottom was quick and easy. I was commenting on the tone of the comment, which is not conducive to discourse. The obvious implication is that anybody using this method of discipline is too lazy to take “the time to use other methods of teaching and guidance.” It ignores the possibility that some people believe that mild corporal punishment is a good element of overall discipline. Clearly, a lot of people disagree with this idea, but there are many who do think that (many of them members of religious groups that teach this). None of these people will be convinced by insults, although some may be convinced by scientific studies of results.</p>
<p>I don’t support spanking in general, but I think many people are luckily unaware of how difficult some children are to control, despite attempting all the “other methods of teaching and guidance.” Having raised three children, I can tell you that most non-contact disciplinary methods work for most kids most of the time. But there are children and instances in which no amount of talking, bribing, or removing privileges will work to get the point across that certain bad behavior is unacceptable, while a swift, light swat works like a charm.</p>
<p>I can remember one or two times I told one of my children that I really wanted to slap them for what they just said/did, but I wasn’t going to do it because some people have decided that would make me a bad parent.</p>
<p>I don’t know whether my parenting methods were the right ones or not, I tried to do the best I could. If my kids have lasting mental scars from my actions, then the lesson is that parents are not perfect and that is a simple fact. I am confident they are happy with the vast majority of their upbringing.</p>
<p>^^
I agree that some kids are quite difficult.</p>
<p>My younger son was about age 3 when he became obsessed with a few odd things. One thing was matches. Of course I was scared he’d burn himself or burn the house down.</p>
<p>I took him outside and we sat on the front steps. I lit a match, blew it out, and set it down. I KNEW he’d pick it up by the “still hot” black end. He did and OUCH. But, it taught him that matches are HOT and dangerous and that ended his fascination. </p>
<p>There wasn’t really any kind of “talking or time-outs” that would have worked. He needed to experience the realities of matches. He probably ended up with a small burn/blister on his finger and some might think that’s equivalent to a bruise from a swat. Oh well. I’d rather he end up with a tiny sore than a burned body.</p>
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<p>I don’t know that I would interpret someone who spanks as being lazy, I think they are doing something which is easier. “Lazy” imo are parents who don’t discipline at all, who seem afraid to rock the boat and don’t want to have to be the “bad guy” and enforce rules.But yes, I do believe that spanking is inappropriate. I believe it’s usually done when a parent has lost their temper. That’s just my opinion, just as saying people who don’t vaccinate are unpatriotic is an opinion. If someone feels insulted, that’s not in my control, really; that’s the risk we all take whenever we take a stand on anything here on this message forum. </p>
<p>I don’t believe people who spank are bad people or bad parents. But if they teach their kids that hitting others is not okay…but hit their kids, I find that to be a pretty big contradiction. </p>
<p>DH was raised with spanking, and he spanked D1 for the first couple of years. I was not comfortable with this, but understood that he believed “mild corporal punishment is a good element of overall discipline.” Finally, I told him I just could not support that and we needed to talk and figure out something that both of us could get on board with. Once he actually thought about it, he realized that the only reason he had ever done it was because that was what seemed normal to him. He had put zero thought into it even though I had stated specific reasons for why I felt it was inappropriate. </p>
<p>He now regrets it and D2 has never been hit by either one of us. He’s a great Dad and was a great Dad even in those days. But he was acting instinctively and yes, not taking the time to evaluate if there were any other avenues that might be just as effective and which did not involve a blatant double standard (because we had specifically told our kids that hitting others, particularly in anger, is wrong and would not be tolerated). </p>
<p>"I don’t know that I would interpret someone who spanks as being lazy, I think they are doing something which is easier. “Lazy” imo are parents who don’t discipline at all, "</p>
<p>I agree. My mom was the least-lazy person out there, but she did give her kids a pop on the fanny when they were young if they didn’t mind her. I think that with smaller families parents have more time to use non-corporal methods most/all of the time. But when the 1950’s moms had 6 kids under age 8 (or whatever) doing other methods may have just been too time-consuming and a pop on the fanny “got the message across” and then she could go back to laundry, cooking, cleaning, diaper-changing, etc. </p>
<p>Hunt,you mentioned up thread and in your most recent post here about your curiosity about more recent research which I am familiar with as it is my field, so I posted it. But you never mentioned it…you did however state a couple of times how self righteous those who don’t agree with spanking can be. hmm…calling others self righteous doesn’t set the best tone for discourse either. Just sayin</p>
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<p>Even at the height of the baby boom, the average children per family was only 1.5 children higher than now.
I don’t think large families have anything to do with it but that’s just my opinion. </p>
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<p>Even a difference of 1.5 children may have had a greater impact on parental decisions due to parental attention being spread out towards more children. Especially when combined with smaller sizes of average homes, resources expended/kid back then, lower economic resources/family*, and culture where hitting was considered an appropriate part of parental discipline. </p>
<ul>
<li>Economic prosperity of the '50s really only started impacting a critical mass of American families during the mid-'50s due to recovery from WWII and the fact the Korean War ended in 1953. There’s also the factor that there was a much higher teen pregnancy rates due to lack of birth control options and a conservative cultural environment which discouraged sex education for teens. A phenomenon which had parallels in Puritan society in Massachusetts Bay Colony during and before the Salem Witch Trials of 1692 when records showed a surprisingly large number of marriages where the brides were visibly pregnant according to the local authorities of the era. </li>
</ul>
<p>I note in passing that even the language we use to discuss this topic is loaded. My parents spanked me, but they didn’t hit me or beat me.</p>
<p>That’s rather a fine distinction, Hunt. The Oxford English Dictionary lists “hit” as a synonym for “spank.” I’ll say again that I know many parents who are good parents, love their children deeply, and do indeed spank them. But to me, it’s using physical force to control a weaker human being, which isn’t okay with me.</p>
<p>I was blessed with daughters who didn’t need spanking, but they were blessed with a mom who wasn’t going to do it. I didn’t find raising them easy, though.</p>
<p>Adding - by “physical force” I do mean discomfort or pain, or the possibility of it. Yes, I occasionally had to restrain a kid physically to avert danger, but that was not a consequence of their behavior. The consequences followed.</p>
<p>I equate spanking with hitting. I don’t equate spanking someone on the behind with beating unless it is done in the manner described in the bill which was proposed and which was the original subject of this thread. Hitting someone until they bruise is beating in my opinion and legally sanctioning it is one of the crazier proposals I have heard. I’m glad the bill was withdrawn, though I doubt it would have passed.</p>
<p>My point is simply that when you tell people who believe in spanking that they shouldn’t “hit” their children, they will immediately tune you out, because in their minds, you are talking about something they don’t do. If you want to persuade them not to spank, that just isn’t a good tactic.</p>
<p>Speaking only for myself, I wouldn’t bother trying to “persuade people not to spank” unless someone specifically asked me for my opinion. This is just a message board where people give their opinions on all manner of things; it’s not necessarily a place where people hope to effect change.</p>
<p>
Missed this comment. I think you will note that I did say that research may convince people, while self-righteous pronouncements are unlikely to do so. That has been my point all along, so I thank you for posting more research.</p>
<p>but it is funny that you missed that comment Hunt, given you asked for more current research and it was actually provided, but you neglected it. you continually focus on others commenting on spanking as if all they are saying is that people who spank are doing something wrong when most of the comments here on spanking focused on alternate methods of discipline and what many see as negative outcomes of spanking which was actually mentioned in the most recent research.</p>
<p>This bill is ridiculously extreme.</p>
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I don’t think that a punishment counts as bullying.</p>
<p>On more of a side note, I don’t understand why there is such a taboo for parents hitting their children in this society while spanking is considered acceptable. I see it the other way around TBH. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t say that I’m completely against physical discipline. Like others have said, there are plenty of people who have received physical discipline and have turned out just fine. As long as it doesn’t go overboard, and it’s done as discipline, not as a “I’m really angry at my kid” thing. And it should be a last resort. Not every kid is the same. Some may respond better to corporal punishment then they do to other punishments.</p>
<p>But spanking is one thing I just find very disturbing. I mean, physical punishment is one thing, but how can you take away someone’s… dignity? No matter how young they are. Something about it just makes me feel… squiggy IMO.</p>
<p>I think many parents, myself included, have momentarily grabbed their toddler to protect them from running into a street, or hit them on their bottom after such an incident, to me this is done as an instinctive, protective behavior, partly survival based. </p>
<p>IMHO me the idea of calmly and purposefully hitting/spanking a child for misbehavior, is teaching that hitting is acceptable, okay. How do we tell our 2, 3 and 4 yr olds, keep your hands to yourself, no hitting, etc, all very important learnings at that age as they encounter group life in preschool, but then hit/spank them to “teach” them. sorry it doesn’t pass the common sense test. However I recognize none of us are perfect and we may resort to the occasional grab/hit, I personally apologized any time I behaved in a manner that I really didn’t find acceptable. It never created disrespect for me, but a recognition that we are all human. That is an important lesson.</p>
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Dignity can be taken away in many ways. Spanking is not the only way to do so. </p>
<p>Spanking is not geared to teach kids it is acceptable to it other people. If a parent adequately explains the reasoning behind their actions and punishments to the child and sets the boundaries, there will be a better understanding by the child for punishments. For example, if the child spanks another child, the parent should step in and explain why they cannot hit the other child. Simple enough. Each occurrence they should discourage the act. I won’t get into the ways to discipline a child who hits…but, to say spanking teaches kids it is acceptable to hit, I feel, is misleading. If spanking is not approached properly it can…but then again it may not. </p>
<p>I was spanked. I did not hit other kids. I am not using this as “evidence” against this claim, but I see no correlation.</p>