<p>I personally like the AP system. If my d takes AP Calc. B/C and gets a 5 on the exam, it does proves one thing. It proves that the percieved lack of “academic rigor” of her public school, when compared to the 25k/yr. private school down the street, is a bunch of baloney. The parents over there always make this argument, but the truth is really that their ability to write a large tuition check is the only difference. The fact that my kid can do this in the “real world” environment of a large public school, says even more. The private school kid can further hide their low stats by applying to one of the many 45k/yr liberal arts schools that fill their halls with underperforming rich kid ED applicants (think Dickinson).</p>
<p>Last year, I attended a h.s. fair w/ D3. As I questioned the student reps, I was surprised learn that virtually none of the schools’ academic super-stars (all honors, outstanding GPA) were unable to break 1150 on the old SAT - - and none of the students who boasted having taking AP classes actually sat for the exam!!</p>
<p>Although the tests (especially SAT) are certainly flawed, but I found the disparity b/c GPA and SAT to be a cause for concern. </p>
<p>I don’t understand the ever-increasing prominence of GPA - - a surprising number of colleges grant SAT and essay exemtions to students in the top 10% their respective hs grad classes or award merit scholarships based solely on GPA. Too bad.</p>
<p>“the percieved lack of “academic rigor” of her public school, when compared to the 25k/yr. private school down the street, is a bunch of baloney. The parents over there always make this argument, but the truth is really that their ability to write a large tuition check is the only difference.”</p>
<p>Turtle, you are very correct. My kids went to private high school. I have been there, done that. Having two students that took all the honors/APs- the education would have been the same whether or not they went private or public. The private school was, however, better for the average students who did not take the most rigorous curriculum, because they received the benefit of a superlative college guidance office and a heck of a lot of hand-holding. And hate to say it, but money talks too. There are an awful lot of discretionary and subjective awards that go out to kids whose families have been “so wonderful for our school” and give them the leg up to get into those expensive LACs. And then again, you have those who just plain have to rationalize why they spent so much money over the past 6 to 12 years. </p>
<p>My greatest fear has always been that my kids’ accomplishments would be suspect because of their private school background (we never got anything handed to us- we were “scholarship” students).</p>
<p>Some of the parents in my town try to say that the education their kids are getting is just as “good” as the education my D is getting at her private school (NOWHERE near $25k/year, though!!). I can honestly say that it’s not true in our case, based on available APs, rigor of courses, ACT scores of top students, remediation needed in college, AP scores, etc. I guess it depends on the school you come from & the school you pay for!</p>
<p>It all depends on the respective schools - - and how much $ your family is comfortable spending on tuition. </p>
<p>I didn’t observe much diff b/w the second tier pvt sch and gifted public sch that D2’s attended, but D1’s top tier girls day sch is recognized nationally as a true leader (and rightfully so). I consider it a blessing that, w/ gen fin aid, she was able to attend such a sch. D2’s sch was more of a mixed bag.</p>
<p>That said, if $ were no object, I’d pick the second tier pvt sch over the gifted public - - smaller classes, more diverse, more amenities, more consist teaching, more responsive to parents. But $ was a factor and for us the marginal diff was worth $8-9K; glad the sch agreed b/c $25k was out of the question.</p>
<p>U of M has pain in the but admissions. A friend of mine has taken Honors and AP classes all through high school and was waitliyed. Becasue of the change in requirements he got in, he is thanking God for the courts though.</p>
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<p>MORE diverse? At the private school? I find that hard to believe (though I don’t know what your school is, so i may be wrong).</p>
<p>However, where I live, the private schools are all rich, typically stupid, white kids, while the public schools are about 60% minority (lol, a majority of minority).</p>
<p>On the original topic, I think that both GPA and SAT/ACT suck. I’m a student at a public high school, and I don’t have to work excessively (though i do work) to maintane a 3.9 GPA. I have a fairly high IQ, I’m a good writer, and have an enthusiasm for learning, however, I don’t take standardized tests well (I got a 176 PSAT as a sophomore). I often pride myself for my ability to find strange and different (while affective) ways to solve problems… but when it comes to do it on a test, i blank. What I hate most about the SAT and ACT is the fact that you can prep so well for the test. </p>
<p>Just an interesting thing about my school, though, is that most of the students at my high school have below a 2.0.
IMO, /that/ is what;s sad. When grade inflation is somewhat rampant… and STILL the kids fail. 
</p>
<p>Yes, at every public gifted prgm we visited we never saw more than 1-2 black students and D2 was 1 of 2 in her K class (kids are selected based on IQ test the fall/winter BEFORE school, most black parents register their kids for K only to find out gifted selection concluded the preceding May). </p>
<p>As for GPAs and SATs - - they may “suck,” but what would you suggest as an alt basis for college admissions?</p>
<p>“The idea that test “guessing”, test , prep, bad test taking etc is a as significant as some say is questionable…With the error bars we are usually talking about (for good students ) 50 points. Also students do get to retake them so having a bad day will not penalize the student.”</p>
<p>Actually, for many students retaking tests is not an option. They require money and transportation (in my case, it was a 45 minute drive for the SAT). These may seem trivial, but a large number of students find it hard to take the test at least once.</p>
<p>haha
i dont thats a huge problem at my school</p>
<p>like teh average sat at my school is like a 1160 i think (And were jsut a plain ole public school)</p>
<p>I understand the consternation here and elsewhere about both grades and test scores. I think that my school does a DECENT (not great) job at keeping grade inflation in check. Most of my classes have required a decent amount of work, and I don’t generally see kids who are coasting by in class getting good grades. Test scores seem to match up with academic achievement–the school’s average is truly just above average (22.6 is the mean ACT score), but you have to consider that this is a huge, not particularly elite public school (also has a large special needs program that is forced to take the test with everyone else…makes no sense, but hey. Beauracracy at work, people). At the top of the class, though, test scores are accordingly high–of the kids I know at the very top, a 32 would be on the low side for an ACT score, and you’d have to go out of the top 10% before a score in the 20’s would not seem out of place. </p>
<p>On the other hand, it seems like there is always a way to game the system. Example: I absolutely love to read, and though it is not my favorite subject, I am arguable the most naturally talented at English. I have read every single book assigned for English all throughout HS. This is not particularly impressive–at least, it shouldn’t be. But talking it over with a friend of mine, we agree: I am practically the only student who we could think of for whom this is the case–even for only one year! NONE of the kids I know come anywhere close to this…most of them have read less than half of the books assigned. Plenty of kids are still getting A’s, though–decent writing ability + sparknotes + few English tests = low effort needed. Very sad, in my opinion–these kids are cheating themselves out of some of the greatest authors and books in the English language. </p>
<p>The problem with tests like the SAT and ACT is that they are <em>too</em> standardized, because they have to be like that. I am naturally a very gifted test taker–it’s like a game to me. Thus, I can get a pretty good score on any subject that I have studied and understood, because I can deal with the testing format. But even for me, there are breakdowns in how much I know, and my ability to spit it out for the SAT. I learned while studying for the AP BC Calc test that I do significantly better on free response than multiple choice, receiving an average and unimpressive multiple choice score and a great (4 (the most) perfect scores + 2 decent scores) on the free response section of the practice test. This was the second/third most points out of the kids who took the practice test. I got a 5 on the AP test, almost surely carried by a superior free response section. But I could NEVER score the 800 that other relatively gifted math students achieve so often on the SAT and SAT II’s–I’m just not good enough at multiple choice. I’m not complaining about my scores, which are still very good. But if I wasn’t the top notch test taker that I am, I am sure that I would still get the 5 or maybe a 4 on the AP exam b/c of the free response, but would recieve a much lower score on the all-multiple choice SAT.</p>
<p>the problem with GPA as a measure of intelligence is that its not - kids can suck up, do plenty of homework or just put in a lot of class participation - none of which coincide with intelligence</p>
<p>a kid who spends 5 hours a night doing one subjects worth of homework is not being properly tested - ne1 can do well if they spend all their time doing homework which can count for substantial parts of a grade, but that doesnt mean that they know the subject</p>
<p>I just glanced over most of these posts and here’s my two cents from observation. Did you ever think that what the kids are being tested for isn’t what they are being taught? </p>
<p>I have two NMF kids in college now. One had one math (old) program, the younger the new math program. Both are those sciency type kids. Oldest 800 math, other classmates good math scores. Younger sibbling in New math program 760 and many bright kids not able to do college level math. Her frustration? Math questions on the SAT weren’t covered or were covered very lightly.</p>
<p>The reason?</p>
<p>(drumroll) NCLB…</p>
<p>the math program was switched to improve the NCLB exams…NOT college entrance exams. The kids grades reflected what they were being taught, which was to pass the HS NCLB exam, not a college enterance one. </p>
<p>The emphasis has switched, Schools, principals and superintendants are on the bubble for NCLB, not for preparing kids for college. </p>
<p>A school district under NCLB isn’t punished for how few kids get into college, they are punished for how many kids don’t make it out of HS. So if your job risk is getting kids out of HS by passing a test, NOT getting them into a college… what are you going to focus on? </p>
<p>Our district had a new (NCLB friendly) program forced upon it’s teachers (didn’t want) several years back. The main reason it was going to raise our NCLB scores. It may have done that but suddenly our running start kids were failing the college math enterance exams, near straight A students were having to take remedial math at their own expense. </p>
<p>These weren’t dumb kids, they were indicators of what happens when you embrace NCLB blindly. You pull the bottom up and push the top down. The district after much parent concern (including me) has reviewed and is making changes in it’s math program, bringing back some of the old to fill the holes.</p>
<p>But honestly, is the purpose of NCLB to prepare any single kid for colllege? If your funding depends on passing the NCLB exams, where do your efforts go.</p>
<p>^^^Actually, with practices like these, no one is being pulled up. Almost any teacher could tell you (and they have said these words directly to me) how NCLB was going to be dealt with: making the tests easier. That’s what is constantly being done…more kids might be passing, but their actual knowledge is not increasing. </p>
<p>As a side note, the fact that your D got a 760 doesn’t particularly worry me (still a very high score…probably only 3 wrong on the test–no shame in that), but the fact that many bright kids can’t do college level math IS worrisome–very worrisome. Sad, really…I think that so many people could have predicted how useless NCLB would turn out to be. I’ve never understood why it was passed…it seems to be almost universally hated, regardless of personal politics.</p>
<p>Anyone who thinks public schools can offer the same teaching and resources as a private school are nuts. I don’t know where you live but if the private school is respectable at all it’s going to have superior teachers, more programs, and smarter kids. Public schools have to deal with red tape, special needs programs, and mandatory health and gym classes. If you have the option, go to private school, its worth every cent. Especially when it comes to college counselling. I go to a boarding school and its amazing how much better the school is in every way then my elite suburban public school in N.E.</p>
<p>I attend a small public school in Texas. Most classes are VERY average. There are a few hidden gems of teachers who I believe are excellent teachers, who are tough - real teachers. My school only offers 5 AP classes, with mandatory exams. 2 Are available to jrs. (Spanish and E. Lang.), and three to seniors (Calc AB, Physics, and E. Lit.). I have only taken the Lang (5), but am taking all the sr. AP’s that are offered. </p>
<p>I expect to do well on physics and lit - because the teachers are great (the lang and lit teacher are the same person). But the calculus teacher refuses to actually even mention the test at all - so I’m worried about it. </p>
<p>Its really a sad situation because the school has a partnership with a local college for dual credit courses which the HS considers “honors”. Its cheaper for the school to offer the dual program than pay for good AP classes(teachers).</p>
<p>(sorry this post is so random by the way) I wanted to talk about grade inflation for a moment - it is awful at my school. I’m third in my class as of now. Our school gives awards for highest sat and act scores - of which I have won both. (2200 SAT 35 ACT) - these match my A+ gpa, but its frustrating to know that their are two people beating my gpa, and several others who are not too far away that have scores no where near mine. In such a small district - I honestly believe the results have a lot to do with the relationships to the teachers. Something I didn’t mention: I’m the only student in the top 10 who is not a son/daughter of someone employed by the district. Not calling foul necessarily - just saying its a concerning fact. Especially when the validictorian (who has the second highest scores) can’t break a 1950 SAT or a 30 ACT.</p>
<p>ConLax, I both agree and disagree with you. On the one hand, I would say that sure, a top-notch private school has a lot of advantages…IF you can pay for it. Don’t tell me about scholarships–I suspect that most kids’ parents are paying, and paying a lot for the truly top-notch schools. Plus, although it might not be AS good and special, you can certainly get a fine grade-school education at a public high school. When it comes right down to it, most families DON’T have a choice–private schools are way out of their budget. </p>
<p>I don’t totally cotton to your characterization of the bad traits of public schools, though. I really don’t see how mandatory gym/health are unbearable requirements (both of which I have had, and I am NOT an athlete), nor how a special needs program cripples the school–I am very proud to attend a school with a large and comprehensive special needs program, and it in no way interferes with the quality of my education. I’m also not sure about the “smarter kids” thing–overall, sure, the whole class will be smarter, but there are plenty of smart and stimulating kids at the top of my class. My classmates and I have done more than respectably on our AP/SAT/ACT’s, too–we can’t be that ill-prepared. </p>
<p>To be frank, I don’t love my school at all. There IS a lot of red tape, and I suspect that at an expensive private school, employees are rarely downright rude to the students, as they are at my school. A trip to the guidance counselor, the attendence people, or any dealings with the administration is really like going to the bank or the post office–sometimes you get a decent person, but mostly you deal with rude, bitter people. And college counseling? We don’t get that, as far as I can tell. BUT, it is a very “real world” experience. If you want something done, YOU have to do it–there isn’t anyone there to hold your hand or even guide you. Personally, I find some satisfaction in this–at the end of my high school career, I’ll know that I really, really earned everything that I achieved–I sure did it all myself. Most kids go to a public school, and it certainly doesn’t kill them or keep them out of top colleges.</p>
<p>"making the tests easier. That’s what is constantly being done…more kids might be passing, but their actual knowledge is not increasing. "</p>
<p>There’s really two tests here one to get into college and one to get out of HS. If the district spends the majority of their time teaching math that gets you out of HS, rather than the math that gets you into college, no matter how smart you are, if you don’t get alot of time with the problems you won’t do well. It isn’t that the kids are necessarily dumb. It’s like layups and foul shots. If you practice layups 75% of the time and foul shots 25%, sure you’ll hit some foul shots but you’ll never be as good at it as you could be.</p>
<p>This also has a bearing on the growing disparity between GPA and SAT scores. Are there other school systems out there with a minimum 2.0 cumulative GPA for high school graduation? We’re in the first year of that requirement, and you would not believe the pressure to make sure they all make it. Last semester my colleague was “asked” by admin to provide, accept, and grade work for “would be” seniors from two YEARS ago (sophomore English). She refused (fortunately, the contract gives her a little protection there), saying that the students had earned their D grades and if the principal wanted to change the grades rather than requiring them to repeat the course with the chance to earn a higher grade, he could follow the contract and do so himself with written notification to her. </p>
<p>We’ve also been pressured, criticized, chided, harangued, and called vindictive and mean-spirited (this is admin to teachers) because we were not willing to go along with a dictum that we enter half credit rather than “0” in the grade program for work that students NEVER DO. The rational is that there is a 10-point spread for A (90+), B (80-89), etc., so an F should only be 10 points lower than a D, because a couple of “0” grades brings down the average (we’re already required to accept work clear up to the last day of the quarter, so there really is no excuse for a “0”). There’s a certain logic to the principal’s point about the effect of a “0” but it breaks down pretty quickly. For example, if a student who does no work at all gets 50%, should a student who half-way completes an assignment get 75%? I think the plan actually would have been pushed over on us if there hadn’t been significant protest in the community as well.</p>
<p>It’s one thing to have high standards, but quite another to only pay lip service to them and render them meaningless.</p>
<p>Our district is going to Pre-AP, no more Honors. Under the AP rules, anyone can sign up. The theory is that we should give Johnny a chance to try to challenge himslef. And they say that they will spell out the rigors of the courses to the parents at meetings. Of course, we know that hte parents that actually come to those meetings aren’t the ones that we need to reach. The kicker is that the District frowns upon greater than 15% failure in any class. If you have more, your principal calls you down and you have to substantiate every single one and show why you couldn’t teach that kid. Not usually a problem - most of the kids in our school fail due to zeroes. However, with the new system, we know we will have many kids in the classes that are over their heads. The kicker is that the kids will be able to drop down to a lower level class whenever they want. The counselors are already jumping for joy, as this will be happening throughout the year after levelling of classes has been done. They are forseeing having to open new sections of classes and not having the teachers to do it, so the current classes will be overcrowded even more than they already are.
As to standardized tests, it is purely a measure of how that child performs on that one given day at that given time. If the kids has a headache, or the room is too hot for the child, or someome is breathing too loud, etc…everything can affect a child’s score. And there are many kids who simply do not test well, yet are brilliant kids. We are usually shocked to see who didn’t make it on the NMS list each year. And these kids go on to prestigious and elite colleges, and are pulling down A’s. There just isn’t a perfect system, and I guess we have to live with what we have.</p>