<p>The SAT does not work at all . My cousin from the Hispanic side of my familiy
attained a 950 on the old SAT , went to a school in NYC where not even half of the students graduate from high school and where less than 10 percent of the students go to college. She got accepted into Columbia through the HEOP program which is a program that helps low income students. I am very impressed with my cousin she is attaining all A’s and has been on the Dean’s List every time. So I pose to you the this question , How is it that a girl with a 950 on the SAT and an 3.7 GPA is getting A’s at Columbia University. The SAT does not determine how well you will do in college. I voulnteer at these inner city youth centers and I have more success stories about students in prestigious colleges getting excellent grades. IT JUST DOES NOT WORK. Another thing my mother pays like 30,000 for my tuition and there are students in my school esp. in my math class , where there was a student who got a 50 average in math and that is b/c the school can not put a lower score and yet he scored a 750 on the math section. It is not fair for the students who work hard to attain the grades they have and have a lazy student who gets a 750 on the math section.</p>
<p>Yes, not all schools are created equal nor are all courses created equal. However, the SAT, as it stands is NOT the the equalizer that everyone thinks it is. There are many reasons for this,but the top reason is the severe time limits on the exam.</p>
<p>There are many smart,thoughtful kids that just need more time to think things through. Albert Einstein was that type of person. We severely discriminate against these types of kids. Frankly, I would have less objection to the SAT if the vast majority of kids had more than enough time to finish the test.</p>
<p>THE SATS are NOT the equalizer, if you have money and a sem-working brain i think that you have a better shot than people who can’t afford to take thousands of dollars worth of classes and tutors, it is just not the same. Obviously if you have a tutor that can pinpoint your weakpoints right from the beginning and help you to prepare it is a lot easier to get a better score than someone who is struggling on their own</p>
<p>Opie:</p>
<p>800 and 760 respectively on the SAT-Math? That’s within statistical range. I can’t think how one would attribute such a disparity to a whole different curriculum.</p>
<p>advantagious:</p>
<p>Thanks for that - unfortunately, I got the raw end of the deal and am not a particularly strong test taker. I’m in AP Calc, and am easily maintaining a high A - no problem. Not even having to strain myself. Though, I have a friend who doesn’t do the work either, and is barely passing. We’re doing the same work, but ending up with different grades (our class is entirely test based)</p>
<p>HOWEVER, in the SAT II Math II and the math sections of the ACT/SAT, he scored higher than I did. I’m clearly the better ‘math student,’ yet somehow he manages to score better on these tests by ~50 points on the SAT II Math…</p>
<p>What’s the point here? There IS clearly a difference b/w people who are good test takers and those who are not. Some ARE more prone to make these mistakes. I find that there are many on this site who have great scores who are very reluctant or firmly believe that they got their scores because they are ‘smarter.’ </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong - my scores aren’t bad - they just aren’t where they should be.</p>
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<p>Most of the people I’ve met that have done well simply purchased the prep books at the local bookstore. The expensive prep-courses seem to be utilized by those with an average score in the first place than those trying to perfect their score.</p>
<p>I agree with brand_182. The mantra on CC is the Xiggi method which costs next to nothing. The “semi-working brain” can be far more important than money.</p>
<p>"800 and 760 respectively on the SAT-Math? That’s within statistical range. I can’t think how one would attribute such a disparity to a whole different curriculum. "</p>
<p>Please remember just cause my kids did alright on the SAT doesn’t mean all is right with the math programs. It’s what they observed. What my second noticed were exam questions that they may have covered for 15 minutes one day in math two years ago and then never again. While my first (3 years apart) spent far more time on problems that ended up on the SAT. The textbooks changed with the NEW NCLB math. Even though the second also scored very high, it came a great effort. That’s what made her angry. She had to recall 15 minutes and two problems to be able to solve several test questions. A couple problems in a textbook, rather than a chapter. </p>
<p>I think some are missing the point. Math is basically repetition, if you only see a certain problem once or twice over a couple years of classes, are you going to remember how to do it? </p>
<p>Yea mine did fine, but mine also are fairly exceptional, but the point even my D picked up on questions on the SAT that simply were shortchanged in our new math program. She was fortunate enough to remember those 15 minutes and two problems. However, she also was very angry that there was not more time spent on that type of math problem. The importance of math classes switched to passing the state exam, not a college one. While my kid could do the college level work with minimal exsposure to the formulas, how many can? </p>
<p>My point is stretch that 15 minutes into a week, now more kids get it. Doing well in math is often just keeping up to speed. If you miss something and don’t understand it and don’t revisit it to correct it, your odds go down about success with it. </p>
<p>NCLB has missed the point. I would have rather seen No Child Left Out of College, then what we’ve ended up with. If you read the punishments and incentives for schools…they have nothing to do with college prep. If all your risk is not getting enough kids out the door of HS, where are you going to focus your engery and money?</p>
<p>standardized tests are really the only thing you can trust anymore. it’s the only situation where all external influence can be eliminated, and the student can only fall back on their own knowledge and smarts, not theirs combined with a parent’s or a tutor’s.</p>
<p>^^^I understand what you are saying, but I don’t really agree with this. The school profiles and research that adcoms to about HS’s uncovers a lot of grade inflation and such, and a whole variety of factors, including test scores, can give a decent picture of an applicant. I WILL say, though, that I think that at normal public schools, the movement away from class rank is an issue that unnecessarily shrouds the school’s grades/standards in mystery. I understand why ultra-competitive magnet and private prep schools don’t rank, but these schools are usually well-known enough that adcoms are more than clear on what good grades/acheivement at these schools are. But at normal public schools without any rank, it becomes much harder to understand grading standards. At some schools, my 3.82 unw. GPA (4.41 w.) would put me outside the top 10%, where at my school (which uses weighted rank–more fair, in my opinion), I am ranked within the top 2%. If my school did not rank, it would be much tougher to tell what my GPA really meant. I don’t buy the “too much competition” argument–know one is killing anyone over class rank at my school. Yes, there are inevitably kids who are only .001 grade points beneath the kid in front of them in rank, but I still think that the no-ranking thing is unhelpful.</p>
<p>nyc:
sorry i didn’t respond sooner. twas out of town.
I don’t think that there is one system that will work for all students. You can’t hold the same ruler up to every applicant.</p>
<p>IMO, the best way to judge an applicants worthiness for acceptance is to look at the essays. I believe that through their writing, students can best portray themselves to the college.</p>
<p>However, that doesn’t work for students that are more math based. That’s why I think that every applicant should be judged individually, and not compare them to other students.</p>
<p>I think that the system that is currently in use works fine. Students can research to find schools that fit them as well as rank their skills higher in importance (in other words, if a student has great SAT scores and likes math, they find a math schools that put importance on a high SAT).
Some students that go to a tough school and have a low GPA may not be able to get into UMich, even though they’re better students, but those students will get into a school that doesn’t weight GPA with much importance.</p>
<p>I am sympathetic with advantageous’ Post #50. My own children are less affected, because even though their Private “does not rank,” I’ve learned that this is (in our case) a phrase for public & student body consumption, not for the colleges. Apparently the rank is listed when the SSR is sent by the counseling office and/or when a college or scholarship agency asks for such info directly from the high school. It is just not typically on written records, but it is researchable. And since the Val is definitely based on rank, clearly the school finds a way to determine that.</p>
<p>They (also) give the “Competition” excuse for “not ranking,” but I have found as a parent, student, & teacher that that is a bogus excuse. About 99% of the time students have a way of finding out how each peer of theirs is doing. From kindergarten on, it happens informally via sharing; it happens by more obvious revelations in the classroom; by students sharing report card information; by parents sharing with each other; by overhearing teachers talking to each other or to students; even by published notices of scholarship winners in local newspapers, etc. In fact, most students, especially ambitious ones, make it a point to learn how their peers are doing – not always for unattractive reasons, but to encourage them to meet challenges. It is possible for a school to rank but to do so in a discreet manner, & to counteract that with emphases on other awards, recognitions, etc.</p>
<p>(Postscript to above: Both of my daughters, in a “non-ranking” school, could name precisely, accurately, where each of the top half (minimum) of their class placed relative to others.) </p>
<p>In very competitive, high-rent publics, which claim that large percentages of students have very high grades (and that “therefore” ranking would be meaningless), two things should happen: GPA’s should always, always be weighted. And if AP & Honors classes differ in rigor, their respective weights should also differ. If there are several ties for any place on the scale, there are ties, period. Just state it. (“Accounting for advanced classes, this student tied with 5 other equally capable students”) Also important would be to state what overall percentage of the class is top 10, 15, 25 percent etc. That would give an admissions committee an idea of the level of capability in the class. The third thing that should happen is a summary of the content of advanced classes, regardless of how those classes are labeled or categorized. Such summaries should include the requirements of the course (beyond studying for an AP exam), a condensed version of the syllabus (including supplemental reading material), or some other meaningful description.</p>
<p>"There’s really two tests here one to get into college and one to get out of HS.'</p>
<p>Opie, NCLB plays out differently in different areas of the country. In my area, integrated math (I assume that’s what your district changed to for NCLB) was all the rage for several years. Community college professors were aghast at the holes in students’ math skills, parents who had any kind of math background complained long & loud, kids’ ACT math scores dropped, students needed math remediation in college, etc. Didn’t matter … the administrators kept telling us how it was the “best program for the most kids.” I say administrators, because many teachers disagreed, albeit quietly (to keep their jobs). After all, I was told by our Assistant Superintendent, “we all know that it’s not about YOUR child, but about ALL children” — EEEKKKK!!! Fast forward to our state debating the use of a mandatory ACT as part of its NCLB-mandated high school test. Districts quickly scrambled to go back to the traditional math sequence, knowing full well that this is the only way they have half a chance of getting kids to score well on the ACT math section. Some will say that it’s unfortunate that the schools had to change in order to be able to get enough kids to pass the test — but people like me are not-so-secretly pleased that the districts were forced to return to a program that actually prepares kids for higher-level math. I will admit that I don’t know whether or not the really low-performing kids DO benefit from the integrated math approach … but if they do, then I would think it makes sense to continue to offer it for those kids (I suspect it doesn’t, but that’s just my opinion). </p>
<p>Anyway, I guess my point to all of this is that NCLB is NOT driving your district’s decision. That’s just shifting blame. Your district (or your state) has chosen a particular measure to use in its testing to comply with NCLB. THe measure is the problem. BTW, I am not a fan of NCLB … I just want to point out that in this particular case, it’s not NCLB dictating the math. That’s good for you to know, because it may be easier to change things at the local or state level than at the national level.</p>
<p>One more nice benefit from switching to a mandatory ACT to measure learning (or whatever they say it measures for NCLB): our language arts teachers are actually teaching … gasp! … grammar.</p>
<p>Thanks, epiphany. Your post just reminds me of the stories that my parents tell about the meetings they went to when I was put into our district’s gifted program (in the 2nd grade). One of the parents raised the question “Won’t this just single our kids out and make them feel isolated?” The answer (from the wonderful women who would later be my middle school English teacher within this same gifted program) was this: “Everyone already knows! The kids always figure out who is smart, and who got which grade, and so forth.” This is SO true, in my opinion–in my district, each kid has an ID number (like the school district’s version of a SS#) that is used to log on to your computer screen and to post class grades, and you even start to be able to figure out your freinds ID numbers! My parents’ HS was just like your D’s…it “didn’t rank”, but there was a Val and Sal, and there was a Dean’s List and a High Honor Roll. So they obviously could have ranked the kids. </p>
<p>You also mentioned that GPA’s should always be weighted, and I totally agree with you. That’s how it is at my school, too, and I think that our class rank is a really good representation of how we stack up to our classmates acheivement-wise. I also think that that question about sharing rank is legit, too–you know something is up if 15+ kids are ranked number one. It doesn’t have to be like that…my school graduates 700+ kids a year, and last year 2 kids were Val. and 3 were Sal, and that was a lot. This year, no more than 3 kids will be Val. and Sal. Sure, some kids are ranked close together (I know a couple of cases where two kids are separated by only .01 GPA points), but I don’t think that that is a big deal. (“Oh, advantagious is only 14/768, not 13/768…can’t accept her now!” I don’t think so). </p>
<p>Kid’s who were going to be crazy cutthroat competitive about rank would be crazy cutthroat competitive about something else if rank were abolished.</p>
<p>I completely agree with weighting GPA and ranking as well. Although at my school we only have 1 valedictorian and 1 salutatorian, based solely on their GPAs. Weighting is the best way to factor in the rigor of the curriculum, but GPA is not that useful without rank–I’d say that the val of almost any school is a good student, whether he/she happens to have a 3.7 or 4.5 or whatever GPA. </p>
<p>I think that the SAT gets hit with a lot of complaints from people who don’t test well [although this isn’t always the case], but it really is one of the best ways to place all the students on a continuum across the country. A lot of people at my school who are good students blame low scores on the SATs on their ‘test taking abilities,’ but buying a simple prep book and familiarising oneself with the types of problems can easily solve that with little cost. It’s ridiculous to say that the SAT should be completely disregarded–I don’t think it is as effective as it could be, but it does test some math/verbal skills and provides a standardized assessment that colleges can use. There are brilliant minds who drop out of high school. There are undoubtedly brilliant minds who cannot perform well on the SATs. But these kids are exceptions [I think Einstein was mentioned earlier]. Most people get into a school that correlates with their ability level, and SATs are an indicator of ability level when viewed with GPA and rank. </p>
<p>I do think AP exams are a better standardized indicator of college success for advanced students though.</p>
<p>If the students “don’t test well,” then how do they manage do get all those good grades in school? Aren’t their grades based on tests? They did well on those tests – or are the class tests just easier? Perhaps the students “don’t test well” only when the test is difficult for them. </p>
<p>Forgive me for sounding a bit snide, but I just can’t understand how a student can “test well” enough to get great grades, but can’t manage to pull it off when it comes time to taking the SATs… The argument makes no sense to me whatsoever.</p>
<p>“Anyway, I guess my point to all of this is that NCLB is NOT driving your district’s decision. That’s just shifting blame. Your district (or your state) has chosen a particular measure to use in its testing to comply with NCLB. THe measure is the problem. BTW, I am not a fan of NCLB … I just want to point out that in this particular case, it’s not NCLB dictating the math. That’s good for you to know, because it may be easier to change things at the local or state level than at the national level”</p>
<p>Kels, the entire paragraph above this was exactly what I was saying, then this paragraph goes 180? The NCLB is not a test, it is a set of requirements to meet based on each state’s current test or a test they adopt for NCLB pursposes. If NCLB was a test, I’ve always opted for where it came from TEXAS. Texas test was/is ranked 46th most difficult and WA is ranked 6th. I figure if we adopt the test they use, we suddenly have brillant teachers. </p>
<p>The math programs sold to school districts in the last few years are sold as “best opportunity for kids to pass the NCLB math”. Yes, it’s not really NCLB test, it’s just the requirement. I do understand. But I also understand why it was happening. In WA prior to this, there wasn’t an exit test for HS. The WASL is what they came up with. And quite frankly the WASL sucks… but it’s a little like the war, if you complain… you’re anti education and don’t care about the children…see a pattern? </p>
<p>Congrats to you for getting your district to change. We did as well, but it took changing the school board and super.</p>
<p>Calmom,
I believe that students who “blows off” an important test like the SAT, probably will blow off their college classes whenever they feel like it, too. Sorry, but “blowing off” a test shows a lack of academic focus – the kind of focus that you need to succeed in college.</p>
<p>Actually, I feel sorry for schools that have to have a #1 val. It’s really sad. </p>
<p>In my S’s year there were 7 vals and my D’s had 5, plus a sal in classes of around 700. In both cases mine would have been #1. Both NMF, yada yada yada…</p>
<p>Why would I support multiple vals if my kids were #1? Simply because these other kids were their friends, they hung out together, studied together, competed against other HS in knowledge bowls TOGETHER. </p>
<p>None of them had to deal with the stress of being the #1, #1 at school. They could enjoy each other’s company rather than hypercompete and hate each other. Alot of bright kids are simply resented at HS all over this country, why should we make them hate each other too? </p>
<p>Really really bright kids have enough socially to overcome in HS, pitting them against each other when they should really find support in and from each other, I think is a much better format.</p>
<p>I’ve seen some people do some truly awful things to be #1 in the working world. Can’t we spare our kids a little while longer and let them enjoy some fellowship among their very uncommon peers.</p>
<p>from a student perspective: </p>
<p>i attend a class high school in the washington dc suburbs (montgomery county md to be exact). the county prides itself in having the best test scores, best schools, blah blah blah. my school, i guess, is one of the mediocre schools. in fact, part of the reason why i go there was apparently because they wanted kids in a particular upper middle to upper class neighborhood to attend to school so they could diversify (wc?) it. </p>
<p>what i noticed in my high school years was, of course, the stress of ap and honors classes. it has come to a point where if you dont take a particular ap course, people ridicule you for being ■■■■■■■■. aren’t suburban kids so lovely? </p>
<p>i took AP government in my 10th grade year and didnt score well on the exam. i had a teacher who thought very highly of herself and made it to be some actualy college courses…the articles we read were like a foreign language to me. during the end of the school year, i filled out my schedule i registered for AP world history without much thinking…it ended up being the worst mistake of my high school career. </p>
<p>after my blow on the ap test, i called up the school and asked to move down to honors. considering it was summer, i figured it would be easy to do. I also figured that if I’m going to take an AP course or two to impress colleges, i might as well take a course that interests me. The process, which i thought be simple, ended up taking a whole semester to do. On the first day, I walked into the guidance counselor’s office and asked for the change i request 3 weeks ago to be changed. she said that she wasnt allowed to change schedules anymore…i eventually got my dad involved, which again took some time, and got the change in january. my complaints of the guidance office not doing their job ended up getting the teacher fired from teaching the course…how nice! </p>
<p>My point is that schools love stressing ap course. They always pull this “oh we care about our students and respect them as adults blah blah.” Well, in reality, all they care about is number of students they can enroll in AP classes. The reason why my change took forever was because they didnt want to drop another student from an ap test. To drop an Ap/honors course to go into a lower level, you have to get signatures from the teacher, parent, department coordinator, class adminstration, and principle…seems like a complicated process to me. To get into an AP course, all you have to do is walk in with a big smile on your face and say you’re ready to learn. </p>
<p>I know the school means well by doing this but in the end they just get screwed. Too many students and parents are complaining. You have kids in AP classes who dont understand the material and only take it to look good. You also have teachers who are either 1) think too highly of themselves and hope to a college professor or 2) dont know how to teach the subject or 3) someone who knows what they’re doing. unfortunately, i wish i had come across option c in my high school career. </p>
<p>To end this, my overall point? AP classes dont really help all students…all it really does is create elitism and false superiority. As far as the test scores are concerned, that’s another issue…</p>