Bowdoin vs. Carleton ED for quirky chemistry, music, and chess kid?

Hi!

I posted once last November and was so grateful for the list-building input. My son is heading into his senior year. He’s very strong academically, with straight A’s in 9th-11th, a 4.78 weighted GPA, 4 APs junior year (got 5’s on APUSH, Chemistry, and Calc AB and a 4 on English Lang) and will take 5 APs senior year (Composition, Calc BC, Spanish, Bio, and Physics). He has a 1550 SAT superstore based on two sittings. 1540 was his higher of the two. He loves learning and is delightfully curious and quirky. He thinks he’ll likely major in chemistry and did both a three week chemistry program at Penn and a research internship/lab assistantship at Arcadia this summer. He’s a strong, dedicated pianist with a love of classical music, and he’s an excellent (and somewhat obsessive) chess player. In addition to the things mentioned above, ECs have included summer piano study in selective programs, chess coaching, chess clubs, volunteering at a senior center’s chess club, dabbling (though not excelling) in school sports (X-country, track, wrestling, and tennis), and serving as a peer writing and SAT tutor.

Here’s his current list (we’ve visited all except Brown, Pitt, UMN, and Lawrence):
High reaches: Bowdoin, Carleton, Vassar, Tufts, and (maybe) Brown
Lower reaches: Macalester, Oberlin, University of Rochester, William & Mary
Low matches/likelies: St. Olaf, University of Pittsburgh (honors college?), University of MN (honors college?), and (possibly) Lawrence University.

He says his top priorities are:
*Excellent, challenging academics across the board
*Opportunity for close relationships with professors
*A culture that includes a love of learning and also a sense of playfulness–studiousness but also not a stress culture
*A strong chemistry department
*Social scene not dominated by alcohol/substance use

When we visited Bowdoin, he had a strong positive feeling about it (despite the fact that there were very few students on campus because it was spring break!) He loved the campus; the exceptional food; the sense of the school being highly resourced and highly academic; and the emphasis on community, outdoorsiness, and service. I think he is a bit wowed by prestige/selectivity, so this may be affecting his opinion as well. He is thinking he may want to apply ED.

The other school he keeps coming back to is Carleton. He loved the visit, and he says he can see himself there–especially because it has both a very strong chemistry department and also a sense of humor that matches his. He likes the dedication to learning–and also the playful spirit. He knows that Carleton produces a disproportionate number of PhDs for its size–and quite a lot in chemistry. He sees himself going on to get a PhD. Here’s the catch, though. I went to Carleton, and he says he wants to chart his own course. I completely get that. But I also want him to pay attention to what a good fit Carleton seems to be for him in just about every way.

I’m looking for input about whether Bowdoin has a strong chemistry department and whether it fits other things I’ve described about my son’s qualities and interests. Do you think it would make sense as an ED choice for him? I realize it’s highly rejective, and his chances of getting in are slim, but he seems to want to “shoot his shot” there. I suspect that if I hadn’t gone to Carleton, he might be more inclined to ED there.

I’d also welcome any additional input about his current list. (We are likely full-pay, btw). Thank you so much!

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Carleton has 3 terms vs semesters. That, in and of itself, is different. Some like less classes and faster speed. Others don’t.

Which is better for music ? Both say have ample opportunity for non majors.

If food matters, on Niche Bowdoin gets an A+, Carleton a C+ - so I’m guessing most consider it not great.

If you believe the PhD feeder list, neither is a top 50 per capita per chem - UMN Morris is #3 as an aside. I linked below. I’m not sure it should matter though.

College Transitions rates Carleton 27 in Chem. Many other LACs like Kalamazoo, Rhodes, Pomona, Davidson, Bates and Colby are listed but not Bowdoin. College Vine lists Carleton 38, Bowdoin unranked (they rank 103).

Does a rank matter ? Nope. Bowdoin is exceptional obviously.

On niche, student descriptors, 64% define Carleton as quirky with 10% stressed. Bowdoin - 1. Bright, intelligent and modest. 2. Smart and energetic. 3. Wealthy and white.

In the end, he needs to choose but the list is strong so maybe don’t ED ?

There are 2 ED opportunities so you can use both. Ultimately the student has to decide - we can’t.

I get the argument of wanting your own thing although you being somewhere 25 or 30 years ago - it’s a lifetime - and my guess is in reality it’s not following you per se. It’s still his thing - but I get it.

Food is important so if these two were the finalists, I’d go Bowdoin but that’s me…literally for that reason (had two kids with low blood sugar from not eating and it’s not fun).

Btw Bowdoin gets more than 3x the ED applicants and by the stats, admits less. I don’t know but guess it’s far more impactful to admissions at Carleton - but that is not a reason to preference. You need to be somewhere four years. You will be there day after day - so the right school is what matters.

Good luck

As for your chancing, any are possible. Pitt Honors is an unknown. I think he gets into nearly all of the low reaches and below and potentially a high reach or two. For chem, you might want to consider Delaware if want large but less so and less urban than Pitt/UMN.

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Both are fantastic schools, and even if one is ranked higher than the other by some measure or another, it’s hard to believe that either of these schools has a weak chem department. Part of it should come down to other “fit” factors – for example, does he prefer one region of the country over another? But when I hear “quirky” with eclectic interests, I see Carleton over Bowdoin – not because Bowdoin students can’t pursue eclectic interests (they absolutely can), but because “quirky” tends to be the kind of student Carleton attracts, whereas Bowdoin has a reputation for a preppier and sportier vibe. On the one hand, these are just stereotypes – any smart, engaged kid can find their people at either of these schools. But they might attract overlapping but slightly different sets of students. As far as your son’s specific interests are concerned, both schools will have board game/chess clubs and outdoor activities (Bowdoin has a legendary outing club, but Carleton has a club like that, too), but I think there might be a few more opportunities to pursue music as a non-major at Carleton. In addition, it would be worth checking whether Carleton students have any opportunities to join ensembles at St. Olaf, which is exceptionally strong in music. But even if not, I know that Carleton offers lots of ways to participate in music (both of my kids have looked at these schools, most recently S26, who is interested in playing music as a non-major in college, so I’ve looked into that specifically).

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Great advice by the two previous posters.

Congratulations to your son. A fabulous record of accomplishment. He should shoot for the moon.

I’d take the “maybe” off Brown. Go visit.

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Thank you for your response! So helpful. My son will feel validated by your agreement that quality food is not a superficial criterion. :smiling_face:

I agree that ED1/ED2 could be a good approach. And I also share your sense that skipping ED altogether could be fine–though he seems pretty determined to ED.

I may be misreading the Transitions PhD feeder list incorrectly, but to me it looks as if Carleton has an adjusted rank of 5 for Chemistry. I also can see how this ranking may not matter given the academic strength of both of these schools.

Having experienced it, I do think the trimester system at Carleton can lead to stress, with its very quick pace (midterms and finals are just five weeks apart). I also worry about how white, wealthy, and prep-schooly Bowdoin may be (though I think Carleton is also very white and wealthy, but has a more midwestern and less Northeast prep school vibe).

Bowdoin does have a significantly smaller number of tenured chem professors. My son is a bit concerned that there are only two full professors (the rest being assistants, associates, and lecturers). Carleton has 6 or 7 tenured profs. In '21-'22 there were 33 Carls who graduated with a chem major. Bowdoin had about 9. DS says that Carleton also has more advanced lab equipment. Not sure how important any of this is.

Yes, it does seem that ED would provide a better boost at Carleton. Also agree that he should try for the school that feels best to him.

You’re right that I was at Carleton ages ago! And was not a STEM major. So he’d be forging his own path there, very different from mine. But I also get his need for differentiation and his sense that he wants to have his own place.

Thanks for the chancing! I like your optimism! Will check out Delaware.

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I have a STEM major at Carleton and an incoming freshman at Bowdoin. While we haven’t actually had much experience at Bowdoin yet, I will tell you that walking around the two campuses the vibe is incredibly similar, so I see where your son is coming from. We have heard anecdotally from multiple people that there is a strong applicant overlap between the two.

As you know, the chem department at Carleton is amazing. My STEM kid is not a chem major but has taken many classes in that department. The professors are fabulous and supportive. Students build close relationships with professors, and it is a great launching pad for academic careers. The 10 week terms can be stressful (but only 3 classes - 15 week semesters can be stressful too!) but students in chem classes are really collaborative. They work together and have fun.

My Bowdoin kid is not interested in chem, so no insight there. But he is seeking a real academic challenge - he loves reading, learning and working hard. He was not seeking a party school, and felt good on admitted students days that there would be plenty of fun things for him. And the outing club sounds amazing!

At both, classes are small and we get the sense that the schools really care about their students. I adore Carleton’s president, and I have really good feelings about Bowdoin’s as well.

Feel free to pm me in a month or so with more takes on Bowdoin socially. Good luck to your son!

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Your description of your son as well as the schools you’ve kept on your list post-visit make me think he’d be happier at Carleton. It’s just that much less New England preppy/jocky. Sure, that doesn’t describe every kid at Bowdoin, but it will have more of that than Carleton. While a non-partying kid will find plenty to do at either, there are probably more partiers at Bowdoin.

Both are excellent schools, so you’re not really trading quality in either.

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Thanks so much for this!

Yes, it would be hard to imagine the Bowdoin chem department wouldn’t be strong. Though what I’ve read and heard makes it seem that Bowdoin is maybe more known for its strength in things like pre-Law, government, Econ, and Environmental Science.

I agree that DS seems to be a match for the Carleton quirky vibe. He is not sporty or preppy. But I’m sure he’d find his people and opportunities to develop his interests at Bowdoin, too.

Yes, Olaf has a great music program and culture. In my experience, there is very little interaction between students at Olaf and Carleton, unfortunately. Not that it’s not a possibility.

Good luck to your son in the search for a great fit!

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Thank you! That is helpful to get your sense that there may be more partiers at Bowdoin. There was a lot of partying at Carleton when I was there in the dark ages, too. I suspect there still is, but maybe less so now.
I share your sense that he would be happier at Carleton. But the obstacle of my having gone there seems big for him. Also, he does say that he really likes the feeling of charming New England schools. He liked the Amherst campus a lot, too. But when he read that it’s potentially more intense and has a more competitive vibe than Bowdoin (not sure if this is true), he became less interested.

Can he do an overnight at the schools that are near the top of his list? You’d be surprised the number of students who think the school is at the top of their list and all of a sudden the list gets rearranged after an overnight visit.

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Wow! This is really helpful on multiple levels.
Wonderful to have confirmation that Carleton’s STEM offerings are excellent, offer close relationships with profs, and are a strong launching pad for students interested in academia.
I’m glad to know of the overlap in applicants and that Bowdoin feels like a great fit for your incoming freshman in some of the ways that my son thinks it could be a good fit for him.
I’d love to hear how things feel for your kid as the school year gets going!

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I was thinking the same! I asked the admissions departments at both schools if it were possible for prospective students to do overnights, but they said no. Right now we don’t know anyone at either school, so I don’t know how we’d arrange for it. Also, his college guidance counselor said she has some reservations about using overnights as a way to determine fit because it’s an intense burst of one person’s (and their friends’) experience and can have an outsized impact that may not be a fair representation. I’m not sure what to think about her take, though.

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You are so kind. Thank you for the encouragement!

That’s unfortunate. One of my sons used to host what he called “prospies” for overnights when he was in college it was encouraged by the admissions office and arranged by them. And it was also a small school so it’s a little disappointing that these schools are not able to assist with that. Yes, there is always the impact of who happens to be your host, but overall the student can get a feel for what it’s like to live on campus. Maybe he can try and overnight at one of the other schools on his list and I can give him a better feel for what other factors are important to him.

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I’m a Carleton grad, and my S25 is starting at Bowdoin next week. He’s not a STEM major, but his college priorities were otherwise the same as your son’s. He’s quirky, not sporty or preppy. I would have LOVED for him to go to Carleton, but he wanted to stay closer to home.

When he was making his final choice this spring, he & I were both concerned about the potential prep school vibe at Bowdoin; here is my thread about it (we found the responses helpful & reassuring). He requested chemical-free housing at Bowdoin (a fairly popular choice, seems like) and he’s vibing with his roommates so far in their group chat. His sense (hope?) is that there would be more of “his people” at Carleton, but there are enough of them at Bowdoin.

I’d recommend that your son reach out to the Bowdoin chemistry department directly & ask if he can Zoom with a professor and a couple of students. Admissions might be able to help you make this connection–my son asked his Bowdoin rep to connect him with a couple of students who shared his interests, and the students emailed him the very next day.

If he’s serious about ED at Bowdoin, could he revisit this fall, to get a better sense of both the chemistry department & the student vibe? Your son might also consider applying to Wesleyan–strong STEM & music programs, and many overlapping applicants with Vassar & Brown. No interview or supplementary essay.

Feel free to DM me in mid-September after my kid has been on campus for a while & can give his early experience of the Bowdoin culture. Good luck!

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Just wanted to say that I love your list, and hope the discernment process can go well this fall!

FWIW, I am 100% on team “chance conservatively”, but I think you’d be able to bump all of your groupings a half step down. So I’d call your “high reaches” just “reaches” (or “unlikelies”), your “lower reaches” as “targets”, and your low matches as just “likelies”. My kids had similar stats to yours, and got in to all four of the schools on your kid’s list that they applied to (Carleton, W&M, St. Olaf, Pitt). I get the desire to underpromise / overdeliver (we did the same), but I think it’ll go well for your son. (Would recommend getting that Pitt application in asap, and he might have an answer back from them in about a month, which takes a major emotional weight off.)

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  1. Yes, food is vastly important and there are various ratings. Not just niche. Princeton Review rates Bowdoin 2nd -they only rate 25. You have to eat 3x a day. When you tire of the food, you either eat out (like kids at Gtown seem to) or don’t eat and get low blood sugar. When you’re a first time, away from home student fending for yourself, it’s not good.

  2. So glad I posted the PhD feeder list. I apologize. You are right. I seemed to completely miss Carleton at #5. Sorry about that.

I think rank doesn’t really matter - but if you go by the rank, then Carleton seems stronger as they are listed in various places and Bowdoin isn’t. And yet, I posted about Bowdoin alums - which was a snapshot of a few - but you could always ask Bowdoin for an outcome report - where have the chem majors of the last few years gone?

I do think - the 3 sessions a year vs. two does matter. Food matters. And perhaps transport to school - if that’s an issue for one vs. the other.

Interesting to me was in the 2024 CDS, Bowdoin had 2005 ED apps and 270 accepted. Bowdoin let in 675 non-ED. I made another slight misstatement - I said Bowdoin lets in less but it looks like 270 got in ED and less at Carleton - but % wise much less at Bowdoin…slight error. What % are athletes or hooked vs. Carleton I don’t know.

Carleton doesn’t show a 2024/25 but in 2023/24 had 637 ED apps (far less than Bowdoin’s 2005 last year) / 247 admitted. They admitted 1440 so 1193 got in non-ED whereas at Bowdoin 675 appeared to get in non-ED.

Two other things - last year less than half of Bowdoin submitted a test while 60% did at Carleton. He’s in the top 25% of both. Frankly, I don’t see how he doesn’t get into Carleton. As for high reaches, what you deem high, not me - 56% of Tufts students submit and 43% of Vassar submit per CDS. That you’re full pay (many/most EDs are) and you’ve got a male student - should help everywhere - but Carleton.

At Carleton, 59% get need aid (nearly $62K on average) and a handful small merit (70 of 2019 averaging $6258 per CDS). At Bowdoin, just over half get need aid at $66K with 41 getting $1K in merit…that’s their National Merit Finalist $$. Just as a contrast, allegedly need blinds Tufts is 67% full pay - so for economic diversity, they are one of the worst. Vassar is smack in the middle of Bowdoin/Carleton - about 54.5% get need aid…so if economic diversity matters.

Personally, I think your son is in strong position - and yes, I agree with @Bill_Marsh that if there’s others of interest you’ve yet to check out, check them out before ED’ing so he doesn’t miss anything.

I get his rationale for wanting his own path - but then maybe remove Carleton and find another, especially if the trimester thing isn’t good.

I definitely get the sense of the tenured professor thing - and perhaps that’s why Bowdoin doesn’t show up on rankings - even though they are obviously strong regardless of a rank. But it might also be why schools like UMN, Delaware, Pitt, Wisconsin, UIUC show up high in various chem ranks - the depth of faculty and various curriculums they can have. But then they’re not a small LAC, of course.

Is there a chance he’d want to do Chemical Engineering - given a much better chance of career success? If so, then the list changes - or he has to do a 3x2 at two schools.

Anyway, lots to think about but based on what you describe, if the essays and LORs are solid, I think he’s in a fine position.

And you have enough safeties on there (Lawrence, etc), I think he’s in good shape regardless. There are always LACs you can apply late - but maybe check out Kalamazoo too - an easy entrance with a relatively open curriculum like Brown and Rochester and great merit aid (you don’t need but you’d get) or Wooster that pushes mentored research (they could be another safety if you have concern).

The other advantage you have beyond full pay and other things I brought up - you are domestic. Rochester relies on international $$ - what if they can’t this year? Right or wrong, it’s another advantage for your son.

Good luck.

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Associates are tenured. Assistants are tenure-track, and frankly very rarely don’t get tenure, especially at schools that are not extremely research-intensive. Sometimes assistant professors might try to take advantage of their pre-tenured status to move laterally or “up” to another school (very difficult to do after earning tenure), but at a school like Bowdoin, I would imagine very few would want that, unless they’re specifically looking to move to a different region, or to an R1 university. So it’s only the lecturers who are temporary, and even some of them turn out to be long-term.

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Agree with @Shelby_Balik and would add that the status of professors could have to do with when retirements occurred at any given college and where their replacements are on the career track. Covid prompted a lot of retirements a few years ago and may have affected some schools more than others.

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I agree with those above who say you are chancing too conservatively. Brown is a high reach, but all the others in that group are very reasonable reaches, even low reaches. I know a student with a similar GPA but lower SAT and weaker ECs who got into Bowdoin, Carleton and Vassar all RD (he did not apply to the others.) He ended up at Carleton and is very happy. He initially felt he “should” go to Bowdoin due to it being “more exclusive” but then decided it felt a little too preppy, jocky and preprofessional to him (although I’m sure it would have been fine.) He felt Vassar was a little too artsy (although I’m sure it would have been fine.) Bowdoin’s food is great, but Carleton’s is not bad. Read the recent review by Dara Moskowitz. I would say Carleton’s chem dept is stronger than Bowdoin’s. I would describe Carleton’s chem dept as very collaborative and happy. But I’m sure Bowdoin’s is not bad in any way.

Mac, Oberlin, and U of R are matches. I don’t know enough about W&M out of state to say, so I’ll leave chancing on that one to others.

Pitt, UMN, Lawrence and Olaf are all safeties. Olaf was always a solid school, but has grown a lot since we were students at Carleton. It now draws nationally, not just regionally. I’ve known some tippy-top students who went there for the merit and had great experiences and then had their pick of grad schools after. Strong STEM, outstanding music (as always) and more interaction with Carleton students than in generations past.

I know your kid wants to ED, but he doesn’t need to.

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