Boy Scouts accepting girls. Girl Scouts not happy.

Parent Cafe
101

^This isn’t a perfect analogy, but sometimes non-Catholics attend Catholic schools for a variety of reasons. The kids may have to attend religious class and parents may tell their kids to say prayers like the other students to avoid causing an issue at the school. The reality is most Boy Scout troops have been de-emphasizing the religious aspect for a long time, and that’s a minor part of the experience.”

My son attended a Catholic prep school (we are Jewish) and he did not have to say any prayer, ever. He did have to attend mass once a month but all he was required to do was sit there quietly, which is exactly what I do when I have to attend any church service (wedding, funeral, christening, etc.)

102

^Not all Catholic schools are the same. If you’re a die hard enough atheist that you object to the words under God in an oath, you probably don’t want your kids attending mass once a month either(where unlike a wedding or a funeral, the primary purpose is the religious teachings of the Church).

103

Different people wear their religion or lack thereof differently. For some people its a huge part of who they are and everything they do. For others its just not. That will impact how well you are able to integrate with groups of people with different religious views in my experience.

104

Someone posted above that GS troops don’t welcome help from dad’s. Completely untrue for my scouts – dads were very active with our troop – although I do have some hilarious pictures of some of our dad’s helping their daughters with yarn craft projects one time when a tornado warning sent us from camping into a troop leader’s basement for an evening.

105

Completely untrue for my troop, too. My husband is a lifetime member of the Girl Scouts. He taught my troop how to bait a hook and how to use a hatchet.

106

I had the same experience as @intparent with my troop. It was the Dads who showed up to do the Sunday am recycling every month. For D’s (and her partners) Silver Award, both fathers were very much involved in their project, providing the assistance they needed with the electrical and construction portions of that project (they installed a music system in the local MSPCA to sooth the kenneled dogs).

On the other hand, I was shunned several times by my son’s boy scout troop. His cub scout leader was a female but once he progressed it was all males. As I mentioned earlier, I presented some good ideas for outside, local activities that I was willing to help with but it was made clear that women were not welcomed to present ideas nor help out (other than provide snacks lol). This was unfortunate because I was a single mom and S’s dad was not active in his life.

107

Not wanting dads was completely true in my experience with GS. My H has been active as an outdoors person forever, was an active scouting dad in BS, but when he tried to get camping trained to camp with our D and her troop (she was in 2d or 3rd grade), he wasn’t even allowed to take the classroom portion. He could have added so much to the girls’ experience. I called and spoke with our local council about it and I got the impression that they were the “She woman man hater’s club.” He said at the time that he felt like he was being considered a pedophile who just wanted to be around little girls. In reality, he wanted to share with our only D the things he was sharing with the boys.

This really turned me off to GS because, to me, girl power isn’t all about isolating girls. I work in a traditionally male environment (I am a trial attorney) and if I confined myself to working or socializing only with other females, I would have had a fairly lonely career. To me, girl power is enabling our girls to learn, socialize and ultimately work and live with men as equals. I feel that I was behind the 8 ball starting out in my career because I had no brothers and attended a religious school which separated boys and girls for most of the day. It wasn’t until HS that I really got to deal with boys. I think I would have been better served had I been part of a co-ed group that was non-competitive as a child. I understand that cub scout dens will be single gender to start, but, if I was Tiger leader now (and I was three times), I would seek out chances to do activities with a group of the other gender. Hopefully, fully co-ed scouting will be the new wave of the future.

As for the religious aspect, perhaps because I live in downstate NY, that aspect was never really as overwhelming as I feared it would be. Our pack and troop and crew had kids who were Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu and a couple of other religions over the years. Some kids earned religious medals, none of mine ever did, and in our troop, religious awards were never worked on at meetings. When we had benedictions, we used the minister whose church we met at, but there was no pressure on anyone to participate.

Overall, I think that anything that helps our children to enjoy themselves while learning valuable skills is a good thing. For instance, while learning to pitch a tent might seem to be only an outdoor skill, having to do it in consultation with 4 other kids, deciding where to put it, etc. is a skill that helps them as they advance. In the group of a dozen or so boys that I mentioned earlier, it was obvious as they grew up which of them were leaders and which were followers, who was a great compromiser (a really necessary member of a group primarily comprised of alpha males - this young man, who is now an actuary, is one of the most popular and well-respected of the group) and how the various kids learned and navigated. I didn’t see this in the 6 years my D was in GS - the decisions were made FOR them by their leader and they were never taught how to work together or compromise. In that one basic regard, a well run scout troop (not cubs, that’s very parent run), draws circles around the GS experiences I know of personally (my own and my D’s).

108

“Not all Catholic schools are the same. If you’re a die hard enough atheist that you object to the words under God in an oath, you probably don’t want your kids attending mass once a month either(where unlike a wedding or a funeral, the primary purpose is the religious teachings of the Church).”

I don’t think people understand the difference between attending a mass where you have made no oath or promise that you are adhering to what is being said and taking an oath that you believe in God when you don’t. Catholic schools will often allow non-Catholics to attend. The non-Catholic does,t have to pretend or dissemble. If you join the Boy Scouts you are supposed to be affirming that you believe in God. If you join when you don’t you are violating BSA rules. What would it tell you child if you told them it’s Ok to do that.

The bottom line is that BSA now allows pretty much any child to join but an atheist. That is their right. But let’s not pretend otherwise or suggest that an atheist could join if they just weren’t so strident about it.

109

@TheGreyKing well said! I am an evangelical married to an atheist (26 years, and counting) with a Roman Catholic daughter and a Methodist son. We’re a very close family. Tolerance and respect do not mean that you agree with another’s beliefs, only that you recognize that those beliefs are well-thought-out and that the person isn’t an idiot for espousing them!

110

I’m an atheist (or at least a commited agnostic) who enjoys attending religious services, but I won’t make an oath to God.

111

@dadof4kids Our troop is very low key about the religious aspect. It isn’t Christian per se. There are a range of religions, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and Christian. For summer camp, the boys attend a religious service of their choice. I think the most popular is the Jewish service (with most of the boys attending not being Jewish) because they serve bagels and the Rabbi is cool. Of course the Rabbi knows this and it’s an opportunity to build bridges and understanding.

I looked over the Boy Scout Application and I don’t see that you are signing that you believe in God. It says that there will be a religious training aspect. And religion is completely free form. You don’t have to belong to a religious group. You can define your own personal spirituality and your parents or guardian can decide what to do. It just doesn’t officially allow no spirituality. The World Scouting Organization only lifted the spirituality requirement in 2014.

112

@maya54 So no pledge of allegiance and In God We Trust is all over our money. It will get to a no spirituality required option at some point. The World Scouting Organization only added that in 2014.

113

BTW, I do belong to a recognized by the Supreme Court religion. (There was a case involving conscientious objectors during the Vietnam War.) Not all religions feel the need for a deity.

114

@mathmom See. You’d be the perfect scout leader.

Pro-tip: Offer donuts at scout camp and you’ll be overrun with kids at your service.

115

"I looked over the Boy Scout Application and I don’t see that you are signing that you believe in God "

@gearmom. I don’t know what you mean. Here is what BSA official R Chip Turner says in a statement in Scouting Magazine
“By signing the membership application, each leader has already acknowledged the Declaration of Religious Principle which affirms a belief in God, calls for an appreciation for the faith of others, and acknowledges the importance of faith in citizenship development. Moreover, this same Declaration of Religious Principle is now included on the youth application form which is to be signed by the parents.”

And " free form" or not an atheist cannot affirm a belief in God.

116

“But try telling other kids that you think their religion is false or made up or a waste of time and I suspect (at least at our area catholic schools – and there is one every 5-10 miles) you will not be attending long.”

There’s a difference between being an atheist and being open about that fact and criticizing others’ religion. My guess is many would folks would discriminate just for being an open non-believer.

From the application referenced above:

Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle
The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing
an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is
absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization
or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing
to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws and codes of the Boy
Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership.

Policy of Nondiscrimination
Youth membership in the BSA is open to all who meet the joining requirements. Membership in Scouting,
advancement, and achievement of leadership in Scouting units are open to all youth without regard to race,
ethnic background, or sexual orientation, and are based on individual merit.

^^Notice the policy of nondiscrimination doesn’t mention without regard to religion.

117

I like the Catholic school analogy, and have actually thought of the spiritual requirements of scouting in that way. Catholic colleges and universities, such as Santa Clara U, allow non-religious students to attend, but still require all students to take a couple of religious courses. They leave class choice up to students and they can select any they want, including say Hinduism or Buddhism. I view the spiritual component of scouting as education. If a scout is a staunch atheist, scouting is probably not for him, but if a scout is open to learning something about having a spiritual connection, then I think there is value in the experience.

As has been stated before, leadership is key to the running of a troop. For a while, we had an amazing scoutmaster who encouraged moms to participate and had several trained and running program. When the leadership changed all that was lost, and women were suddenly second-class citizens, even though they often had more training and were more active than the dads. It makes me angry when I think of the talent we lost.

One reason I am glad for this change in scouting is that troops will now have to allow women to be involved. Despite all my training and experience, the fact remained that I could never have gotten Eagle, and so, my opinion mattered less. Can’t tell you how many times my points were just ignored in committee meetings. I would have left earlier if not for my boys, and the knowledge that change was on the horizon. My boys are Eagles with Palms now, so we are mostly done with scouting, but I’m glad future moms (and girls) will have an easier time than I did.

118

@doschicos That is the short version.

@maya54 You can have any spiritually but you can’t have no spirituality in BSA. The World Scouting Organization only started allowing no spirituality in 2014 so there will be a delay for inclusion in the US, I’m sure.

119

“I like the Catholic school analogy, and have actually thought of the spiritual requirements of scouting in that way. Catholic colleges and universities, such as Santa Clara U, allow non-religious students to attend, but still require all students to take a couple of religious courses. They leave class choice up to students and they can select any they want, including say Hinduism or Buddhism. I view the spiritual component of scouting as education. If a scout is a staunch atheist, scouting is probably not for him, but if a scout is open to learning something about having a spiritual connection, then I think there is value in the experience”

No no no. These Catholic schools require that you learn about religion. They do not ( most of them) require that you say you believe in God. . Scouts require you to make take an oath that you do. It’s not about being a “” staunch " athiest. Its not about " learning".

It’s about not lying. This really isn’t that complicated.

120

@maya54 There is a new oath version for non believers from the World Scouting Organization which says “uphold out scout values” instead of “duty to God.”