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<p>The number of words it would take to adequately sum up everything wrong with this post is greater than the number of atoms in the universe.</p>
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In other words, you can’t defend your postion. So why did you even post?</p>
<p>I still agree with Colin Powell: “You break it, you own it”.</p>
<p>If we can’t fix it ourselves we have to suck it up and beg our allies and the neighbors (including Iran) to come and help us fix it. And we need to pay for it with more American lives and more American money because we are the party responsible for all of this mess. We are the ones that started bombing of Iraq 5 years ago, without having a well-thought out strategy to complete the task.</p>
<p>So, what do you propose we do? Leaving will not solve that anymore than leaving Somolia created a free and peace loving country. So, do you want to leave and say “that’s your problem,” stay and say “we’ll try to MAKE you like each other,” or do you have some enlightened solution that no one has yet discovered? To me, it sounds like you want to leave but then say “We’re so stupid! How could we have LET this happen? Bad Bush! You didn’t help!” That is just two-faced, IMO.</p>
<p>"I still agree with Colin Powell: “You break it, you own it”.</p>
<p>You break it, you PAY for it. You DON’T own it, and you don’t fix it. Your mother takes you out of the store, gives you a stern lecture, takes the money out of your allowance, makes you go inside and apologize profusely, again and again, until your apology is accepted. Then your mother pays the store owner to find someone who is NOT responsible for the breakage to fix it. </p>
<p>Sunnis and Shias have lived side by side without killing each other throughout the Middle East and South Asia for a very, very long time. But I guess ethnic cleansing the few remaining Christians, who have lived in Iraq for almost two thousand years, is going to help matters.</p>
<p>“internecine tribal warfare”</p>
<p>It’s not like these are the German and French.</p>
<p>mini: LOL. I hear you. But what if you spill your sticky orange soda on the floor of the store. Taking you out of the store, apologizing and paying for damage is fine, but maybe you should also stay and mop up the floor…with your shirt. I don’t believe that we cannot be of any use there. </p>
<p>Agreed, it is a huge lie to say that the Shia and Sunnis cannot co-exist without killing each other.</p>
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<p>It was the government of Iraq’s job. And then America overthrew it (with some valid reasons, but nonetheless) and more or less created a new government that is extraordinarily precarious, with nowhere near the support needed to truly be effective or strong. No, this whole thing is America’s mess to deal with, including the refugees.</p>
<p>“But what if you spill your sticky orange soda on the floor of the store. Taking you out of the store, apologizing and paying for damage is fine, but maybe you should also stay and mop up the floor…with your shirt.”</p>
<p>Have you ever seen a 5-year old mop up orange soda around fine antiques? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>“And you and mini still have not identified how America is supposed to get Iraqis to like one another without ursuping the role of the Iraqi government.”</p>
<p>America is not supposed to do ANYTHING. But it would help to have its leaders go to Iraq, get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness, provide $20 billion dollars each year for the next 10 years to SOMEONE ELSE to rebuild the country (no American companies need apply - they’ve already proven their ineptitude and corruptness), and another $10 billion each year for 10 years to care for the 2.2 million refugees outside the country. Oh, and accept half a million refugees who have assisted the hostile, aggressive occupiers.</p>
<p>Paul Bremer could have created a government of technocrats, and there were plenty of them in Iraq. Instead, he decided to parcel out the government by ethnicity, something that had not existed in Iraq for 60 years.</p>
<p>I dont claim to know too much about the situation on the ground in Iraq. But i do know that most Americans want us out as do most Iraqis. Most people who know about the country that I have read or listened to believe that there is no chance of a western style democracy in the country. Iran is far more influential in the region now with the demise of the Sunni power in Iraq. The country is still in shambles years after Mission Accomplished. And after the fiasco in Basra, the Iraqi army is still ill prepared to stabilize even a small part of the country.</p>
<p>It is just a bloody mess that America has created, one in which there seems to be no good solutions. But this is what PNAC wanted in 1998, three years before 9-11.</p>
<p>Cakewalk my foot!</p>
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So, basically, you’re saying we should get some unknown 3rd party to try to fix Iraq, while we foot the bill. That is even less likely to work than the current plan.</p>
<p>I see that we are still “hostile, aggressive occupiers” to you. Sometimes I wonder why I waste the time to type.</p>
<p>“I see that we are still “hostile, aggressive occupiers” to you.”</p>
<p>I was being charitable. I call it as I see it.</p>
<p>[Iraq</a> Insider: Ten questions for General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker](<a href=“http://theiraqinsider.blogspot.com/2008/04/ten-questions-for-general-david.html]Iraq”>http://theiraqinsider.blogspot.com/2008/04/ten-questions-for-general-david.html)</p>
<p>Grabs pita and hummus and watches battle unfold intently.</p>
<p>You Americans are so civilized when you argue. We Arabs are a little more hot blooded. If this debate were taking place among Arabs, someone would wake up with his prized camel’s head at his feet.</p>
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<p>When I see references to how bad things are in Iraq and how people in Iraq and the US want us to get out, I think of the classic admonition of Lt. Gen. Honore in New Orleans when he cautioned the media to “don’t get stuck on stupid”. Iraq is a fluid situation and what you may have thought about it 6 months or a year ago is not what it is today. First, most Iraqis want us to stay longer rather than get out now. A recent ABC/BBC poll of Iraqis found that 61% of Iraqis wanted the US to stay longer to help with the security situation. On the American front, a recent Pew poll showed that the public was evenly divided between keeping the troops longer (47%) versus getting out soon (49%). </p>
<p>But, to make policy decisions based on public perception is totally ludicrous. That may have been the Clinton method (including determination of where he went on vacation), but a true leader should be able to look past the most recent car bombing which results in the fickle public opinion. If we are to base our policy on opinion then certainly the invasion was the best policy because original opinion was positive.</p>
<p>As to Iraq being in shambles, this also changes with time and place. A year ago Fallujah was the heart and soul of the insurgency and was written off as a place where Americans could ever expect peace. It was probably the image that Harry Reid had when he said the “war is lost”. Now it is one of the most peaceful, pro-American places in Iraq:
[Michael</a> J. Totten: Builders of Nations](<a href=“http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/04/builders-of-nat.php]Michael”>http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/04/builders-of-nat.php)</p>
<p>As far as the “fiasco in Basra”, I think you need to withhold your final grade on that one. The initial talking points of the media were that it was a failure. Now, however, people are re-assessing the situation there and it is quite possible that the real loser was Sadr. There were a number of very significant positives that came (or are coming) from that campaign.</p>
<p>Don’t get stuck on stupid</p>
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<p>I guess American movies like “The Godfather” have some influence after all. This sounds like making someone “an offer he cannot refuse” and waking up in the bed with a horse head next to you. :)</p>
<p>American movies are very popular in the Middle East. And we have our fair share of horses too. But I thought camel would be more ethnic!</p>
<p>fundingfather, the recent WPO poll shows that 70% of all iraqis want the US Army forces out of their country with half calling for immediate withdrawal(6mos) and the other half for a 2 yr withdrawal.</p>
<p>And according to a mid-Feb Gallop poll a majority of Americans want a firm timetable for troop withdrawal. And by a 60-38 margin they believe that the Iraq invasion was a mistake.</p>
<p>And for any Iraqi polling one really needs to look beyond the overall numbers. Kurds have generally benefited from our invasion and are the most satisfied about the situation today and the continued presence of US forces. Understandably Sunnis are on the very opposite end of the polling statistics, While Shias fall somewhere in between. In addition, as mini has pointed out, much of the benefit associated with the “surge” has had less to do with engagement of aditional US troops than the ethnic cleansing which accompanied it and Sadr’s decision to lay low in order to recooperate and rearm his militias. They now seem to be coming out of the woodwork, esclating the violence in recent weeks.</p>
<p>I do not think policy based on public perception is a great idea either. But 47% of Iraqis think it is okay to attack US troops, 70% want us out in 2 years, the government has failed to meet most progress timetables and their forces proved incompetent in Basra. </p>
<p>I am more than willing to give the country more time to get their act together, but until we begin slowly withdrawing our forces we give them no incentive to get prepared to be fully responsible for maintain their own internal security. And interestingly, this is what a majority of Iraqis want and believe will happen, though not most Sunnis.</p>
<p>originaloog,
When you say “the recent WPO poll”, which poll are you referring to? The last one to have been put on their web site dates back to 2006 which is ancient. If you are still using this data you are “stuck”. The ABC/BBC poll is from a March 2008 and showed significant improvement in almost all categories from last August. </p>
<p>Also, your analysis of sectarian differences of perception of the US is also outdated. As the link to the description of the situation in Fallujah indicates, the Sunni have done a major 180 in their perception of the US troops.</p>
<p>If you had been following any of the activity on the ground, you would realize that yours (and mini’s) downplaying of the surge in bringing these changes about is just a rehash of the Democrat’s talking points. It really is not that close to reality.</p>
<p>if the Iraqi government forces were so incompetent in Basra, how is it that they were able to take control of the port which is the major lifeblood for transporting Iraqi oil? Why is it that Sadr is the one trying to call a truce? Is it normal for someone who is winning the battle to try to get the battle to stop? As far as the timetables, have you not noticed the progress that has been made in recent months?</p>
<p>You need to update your thinking to be current and consistent with what is actually happening there. Otherwise General Honore will accuse you of being stuck on stupid.</p>
<p>Mini-Sen Ben Cardin-brings up the displaced refugees to Gen Petraeus. The issue is raised!!!</p>
<p>Nice to see that Obama actually showed up for the meeting today :)</p>