<p>Both. There’s a correlation between strong students and strong programs.</p>
<p>No, there isn’t always correlation. Indiana is one of the top 10 undergraduate Busines schools and it is not as selective as many Business schools that aren’t ranked in the top 20. And although I am not sure about the quality of McIntire’s student body, I can tell you that Ross’ and Haas’ student bodies are about as good as Sloan’s.</p>
<p>The business program at Indiana although not as selective as Ross is more selective and harder to get into than other programs at Indiana and the student body of Kelley is of a higher caliber. Ross is ranked higher than Indiana so it makes sense the student body of Ross would be stronger.</p>
<p>Alexandre no matter how great you think Ross’s students are they are not MIT quality. MIT’s student population is not about as good as Michigan or Berkeley. While Stern, Ross and Haas might be great, Sloan’s student quality is without question superior. McIntire I don’t know.</p>
<p>Not quite. The top 25% of Michigan and Cal students have SATs that range between 1430 and 1600 and a mean of 1470 in one sitting. Sloan’s mean SAT score is, presumably equal to the average MIT SAT score, which is 1480, in multiple sittings. Keeping in mind that the average Ross and Haas student is among the top 10% of their school’s respective student bodies, it is samfe to assume that their mean SAT scores is well over 1450. I’d say Ross and Haas students are equal to Sloan students.</p>
<p>No. Ross + Haas both have about a 50% acceptance rate when you apply there if you go to the university from what I hear. Now…Berkeley isn’t that hard to get into, neither is Michigan. MIT is a lot harder. Keep in mind MIT will have a lot more Intel / Seimens / AIME / USAMO / whatever competition you can think of when compared to Michigan and Berkeley.</p>
<p>First of all Alexandre, its very hard to equate student quality with SAT, impossible actually. Most admits to MIT still rock the SAT, atleast the math section. Not only are these admits quantitatively very qualified, they have tons of other academic qualifications that maybe only a handful of Michigan students and small percentage of Berekeley students may even compare with. MIT students for the MOST part are brilliant, have something special. MIT name speaks for itself, I don’t have to vouch more for its student quality. Michigan on the other hand, is not too difficult to get in, the hardest part being to apply as early as possible. Berekeley is more difficult for out of state to get in, but not too difficult either, beat the points system.<br>
“Keeping in mind that the average Ross and Haas student is among the top 10% of their school’s respective student bodies, it is samfe to assume that their mean SAT scores is well over 1450. I’d say Ross and Haas students are equal to Sloan students.”
This is an assumption. The business programs are not the stars of the schools, atleast not in the case of Berkeley. Many students pursue engineering, math and other fields that Berkeley is more well known for.
Secondly, its not the hardest thing in the world to get into Ross, as Dylin pointed out, you have 50-50 chance of getting in. Not all admits to Ross and Haas have 4.0s and other big credentials. Ross’s acceptance into the business program is as random as any other top college for the MOST part. People get in with 3.2 1200’s while other really qualified applicants don’t. My cousins who just graduated last year from UMich engineering, don’t exactly term the average Ross student as the strong academic type. Its not the hardest thing to go through Marketing and Management, maybe thats the reason. Lets just say, they are seen more in bars than in the library. Alexandre you compare Michigan to many top schools, but this time you are pushing it too far. No matter how highly you think of Michigan(Ross), it just doesn’t compare with MIT.<br>
“I’d say Ross and Haas students are equal to Sloan students.”- Not Really</p>
<p>Ah, but most of the Ross and Haas kids probably have a significant edge over the MIT kids in terms of social intelligence. And it probably all evens out in the end. Businesses aren’t always looking for the proverbial rocket scientists. There’s a lot more to it than that, methinks.</p>
<p>Admits to MIT are in no respect number crunching monsters. Also keep in mind to MIT are not only academically well rounded but are also extracurricularly very accomplished. They don’t run the back offices of America, but are rather found in the forefronts of American Industry from IT to Medicine. If they lack social intelligence, as they mingle with other greats, social intelligence is developed in the 4 years of college.</p>
<p>legionaire, where do you go to schoo?</p>
<p>I didn’t say MIT kids completely lacked social intelligence, did I? I’m suggesting that the Ross/Hass students very well might have an edge socially that balances out the differences in academic test scores, etc…which may explain why they are considered to be on the same level. Just my opinion though.</p>
<p>dude, did i say you did? No. And “they are considered to be on the same level” by very very very very few people, who are ignorant. coolblue, I will be attending NYU Stern this coming fall.</p>
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<p>No? That’s rather curt of you. I suppose I can reciprocate.</p>
<p>No. That 50% is only the top students that logically have a chance to get in. Counselors at both schools tell students very plainly, “You have no chance, don’t waste your time.”</p>
<p>There’s a reason that even the best students at Berkeley hedge their bets with economics as a backup when applying to Haas. I highly suggest against arbitrary statements–however, if you must, I suggest you research somewhat more.</p>
<p>Also, last I checked, Berkeley has more National Merit Finalists than MIT. Does that make it better? Do science competitions make a school’s business students better? I’m not sure I see the relevance of Intel/Siemens (that’s how you spell it, by the way)/etc.</p>
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<p>You are correct. Haas admits merely have median GPAs of 3.82 and exemplary essays.</p>
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<p>There tends to be a trend for a small percentage of students in Berkeley to be in Haas.</p>
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<p>Your information is outdated about 3 years. Berkeley abolished the point system for that reason.</p>
<p>At this point, they have adopted a holistic evaluation scheme, “Front to back” of the application. Essays have also become almost as important as grades as well.</p>
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<p>I find your first sentence in that quote rather ironic.
Have you visited Berkeley? How much contact have you had with its business program?</p>
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<p>Inequality is inevitable for undergraduate as both Michigan and Berkeley have student bodies that are far and beyond larger than MIT’s as well as having a state directive. I would agree with your statement in the school in general.</p>
<p>I don’t know about Ross, but I would assume it’s generally the same as Haas. In which case, I disagree strongly. There are various reasons why people accepted to top private schools don’t go, and Berkeley tends to get those who choose not to from California–which is a significant number. I’m somewhat skeptical that you say in all of Berkeley (30,000), if you are doing some major sifting, you cannot find 700 students on the same level as Sloan students.</p>
<p>It’s one thing to state a belief and perception–and present it as a belief and perception. I would caution against using belief and perception… and stating it as absolute fact.</p>
<p>If science competitions don’t make a school great, SAT scores certainly don’t. A 3 hour test to months of research and work? I wasn’t(didn’t mean to) comparing Sloan to entire Berkeley or Michigan student population, that would be a mismatch. Yes, Berkeley and Michigan tend to attract a lot of instate students that rather not move out.<br>
“You have no chance, don’t waste your time.” -Maybe its true for Berkeley, but Michigan counselors are much more encouraging. You don’t have to be the next Warren Buffet to get in.<br>
As for allstar school status, I meant that Berkeley is more well known for science and math related fields than business. I didn’t mean to degrade Haas in anyway, it is undeniably a good business school. And yes, I’m not quite as up to date with Berkeley as with Ross. But, I still stand by what I said, Sloan student quality is better than Haas or Ross.</p>
<p>You guys are ridiculous. If you think that test scores show intelligence, show what student body is the best (trying to compare 20,000+ students) you have a lot of growing up to do. Get a life, my god.</p>
<p>In-State. That’s precisely why a lot of the top students choose to go to Haas or Ross. MIT, on the other hand, draws students from the whole world, and only the best. </p>
<p>By the way, why are you assuming that Ross/Haas admits have more social intelligence. That is one of the worst assumptions ever. I hate how people think that just because you go to MIT or Caltech that you’re socially inferior or something.</p>
<p>I’m fairly sure that if you compare the average Haas student and the average MIT student, the MIT student will be smarter. Granted, there will be the smart Haas students who were probably admitted to HYPSM level schools who decide to go to berkeley because they are in-state, but on average, I’d think MIT students would be smarter hands down.</p>
<p>Hmm… well, I didn’t mean SAT (PSAT, if we’re discussing National Merit) scores make a school great. It was a rhetorical question, meant to point out the absurdity of it all. Basic literary technique. The point to be made is that you cannot judge it that way. </p>
<p>Also, if you could not pick up on that from my post, A2Wolves6, I’m afraid I cannot be blamed for your misread. However, I can assure you that was not the point I was trying to make.</p>
<p>Eh. I’m not quite sure I’d agree with the Sloan quality is better as a whole is better. Technical skill, very likely, is at a far higher level. At the same time, however, Haas students usually have strength in humanities and social sciences other than business/economics than Sloan students.</p>
<p>You’re looking at two different types of programs, one geared more towards quantitative and the other geared more towards relations and management.
Which students in each bunch is better is a matter of personal definition in what is “better”. You have your own personal feelings on the matter, which I can respect. Personally, I think most schools have different nuances and don’t have a clear “best” or “worst” within a margin of error of 10-20 ranks.</p>
<p>I’m not degrading MIT or Sloan at all though. A friend of mine is going there, and I have great respect for MIT as a whole. I’m merely attempting to defend against what I believe are statements that are too broad. </p>
<p>However, yes, Berkeley counselors are firm (as well as Haas’s in-house counselors who you would usually get an opinion from) in whether they think you have a chance or not. I personally think that is more benevolent than leaving the student to go through the exhaustive application process only to be rejected on the first round.</p>
<p>Though I might point out that Berkeley has a good reputation in business in the private sector (admittedly not among the mean population, though)–about as good a reputation as its engineering and psychology programs.</p>
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<p>Very true. And I would agree with that statement if looking at both institutions as a whole and by percents.</p>
<p>I would point out, however, that Berkeley has a very strong international reputation (much stronger than in US) and 10% of the applicants are out-of-state/international. This 10% of Berkeley’s gargantuan undergraduate population of 23,000 (which has problems in and of itself, admittedly) is over half of the size of MIT’s entire undergraduate population.</p>
<p>The students that get into Berkeley from this 10% are students that are pretty well able to get into Ivys and other elite institutions.</p>
<p>I’d say that out of the remaining 20,700 students in the in-state pool that we can probably cobble together around 1,700 students of MIT quality, at least. After all, 8% is not a very difficult number to obtain, even all that 8% was students who turned down other schools for financial reasons. (It is worth noting that a massive chunk of MIT admittees are from California… perhaps due only to sheer population, but that also tells something about Berkeley which only takes the top of that California pool)</p>
<p>Most students in Berkeley cannot even qualify in the “possible” catagory for Haas.</p>
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<p>Personally, I agree. It is a bias that is undeserved.</p>
<p>While MIT focuses far more on technical intelligence, one cannot forget that MIT’s required humanities exceed that of some universities that have been lauded for liberal arts.</p>
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<p>I agree with you in terms of the average Berkeley student. There are many in-state admits that wouldn’t have a prayer in terms of getting into MIT. The average MIT student vs. the average Berkeley student, the MIT students are smarter hands down. That I agree with.</p>
<p>As I pointed out though, I doubt there are less talented students in raw numbers. That they are diluted somewhat among the population is a factor I don’t particularly like either, but there are plenty there that can match MIT student caliber.</p>
<p>With this logic, I cannot agree that Haas students (or EECS students for that matter) are less capable than MIT students. You are looking at plenty of students of equal ability, and a program is very, very selective. </p>
<p>MIT vs. Berkeley. I agree.
MIT vs. Haas or Berkeley EECS. I’m afraid I do not.</p>
<p>Maybe the average Haas student is comparable to a Sloan student, given the info. you provide and the selectivity of the program. But Ross does not compare, it is not quite as hard to get in. some people elevate Ross’s status every chance they get, but in reality its no better than Haas or Stern. Overall, Sloan is obviously the program taking into account everything(student, faculty, recruiting…).</p>
<p>Legionaire, like I said, the average Ross student is in the 90th percentile of Michigan’s student body. The 75th percentile has a 1430 or so on the SAT (that’s in one sitting), so it is safe to say that the 90th percentile has an average SAT score over 1450. </p>
<p>And I am not sure how anybody can really elevate a Business school above Haas or Stern. I know I haven’t. Only Wharton (at the undergraduate level) and Harvard and Kellogg (at the graduate level) have business programs that are considered markedly better than Haas, Stern, Ross or Sloan.</p>