Cake decision

Parent Cafe
61

I don’t see a big issue with a band. They are not performing a religious wedding ceremony. In fact, I venture to say that a lot of Bar and Bat Mitzvahs have DJs and bands that are not Jewish. Lots of weddings have music vendors of different belief systems than the couple who is celebrating. Even those in attendance at a celebration don’t necessarily have the same religion, race, or sexual orientation. I have no problem attending a Muslim wedding even though I am Jewish. If I am a vendor of wedding supplies, I would not care the race, religion, or sexual orientation to whom I sell my products or services. I am not supporting or condoning their beliefs or practices. I am merely doing my job and providing what they paid me to provide. I certainly would not want all businesses to decide who can buy their products or services based on race, religion, or sexual orientation.

Nobody is being forced to worship or change their beliefs or orientation. They just have to abide by non-discrimination laws, and be tolerant and accepting of differences. Our country is based on these principles are so are the laws. The country still has a way to go. But that baker in the original article and some on this thread seem to want to set us backwards. Nothing positive can come from intolerance and discrimination. It just causes more problems.

62

"And the “forced to fraternize with people who violate your religious beliefs,” argument was the same argument used to keep black children out of white schools. "

Yes, but it is abundantly clear, even to an atheist, that the support for being anti-gay is in multiple places in the bible, but there is very little if any support in the bible for racism. In fact, there is a lot of support for accepting people of all colors in the NT.

And those spouting off about certain churches being tolerant, that’s great for them, but certainly not only Roman Catholic and most if not all Eastern Orthodox ban same-sex marriage and homosexuality as a sin, but there are many many MANY people who would be considered Protestants but attend no church but worship their god in their own way per their reading of the bible. Why should the latter set of people have fewer rights than those who follow a church hierarchy?

It’s clear that ISIS using the Qu’ran to justify raping women and girls is wrong, that is not a religious right.

It is not clear to me how not becoming involved in a wedding that is against your beliefs is wrong.

The slippery slope is on both sides of it - in any case of discrimination. This person was fired because they were disabled, not because they were incompetent and nasty to fellow employees. That student was failed because she was gay not because she ignored deadlines and did not tell the professor about missing classes and making up work.

Is it really so wrong to say “we don’t make wedding cakes for same sex couples because we feel that it is against our religion”? When it says that homosexuality is wrong in the bible?

Is there any way to do business in the US if you are forced to serve all customers no matter what? I was harassed in a Macy’s store four times, each time escalating as I went around the store to purchase different items. Was it because I am brown-skinned and multiracial? Or was it because I hadn’t used my Macy’s card in a while?

I just think the whole thing is sad, and I don’t know if it is a victory for civil rights or a defeat for small business owners.

And I don’t think comparing this case to civil rights for people of color is a fair comparison.

By the way, I like red velvet cake, but it can get expensive.

63

To those who think the baker was right in not wanting to bake a cake for the gay marriage…what about if a gay couple goes to a jeweler to buy wedding rings. Should the jeweler decline to sell to them? And the caterer? And the bridal salon that sells dresses or the men’s tuxedo wear place?

64

The “religious” folks are cherry picking their beliefs. Depending on what translation you are using from the Christian Bible, you could declare that it states any number of beliefs. Why go for one, and not the others?
If they want to serve only similarly minded people, they could easily make their business a " club" or co-op, but by running it as a community business, they must serve the community.

65

@teriwtt, that’s so true. It’s what the Pope points out (gently) all the time. We spend too much time focusing on certain specific sins, and ignore so many of the others. Because once you focus on all the sins, you find we’re all guilty.

In terms of our politicians, for instance, one of our more decent politicians despised his father so much that he changed his name. Not just his last name, but his entire name. The very famous Leslie Lynch King. A very good man, but he hated his father. Is he worse or better than someone who has sex out of wedlock? Does it matter? Do you refuse to make him a cake? Why are we so obsessed with homosexuality, but gluttony, using God’s name in vain, and lusting after your neighbor’s spouse are yawn-worthy? If a baker refused to make a cake for A glutton, it would be laughable.

66

@rhandco – the Bible (apparently) says lots of things, and even different religions that use the Bible use different versions, with different content. But the Bible (any version you choose), the Book of Mormon, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, or other religious texts are not the law of the land, much as some of their adherents wish they were.

If every business was simply allowed to ignore anti-discrimination provisions the way some have suggested, what would even be the point of having anti-discrimination laws?

67

There is no question but that this couple set up this baker to prove a point with their friends from the ACLU and gay rights groups. Fine, they won. Plenty of other bakeries in the area, in Denver, in Boulder. The court ordered the bakery to keep records for two years of other wedding cakes, and if the couples are gay. I’ll bet there will not be another request for a cake by a gay couple. There is nothing in it for the gay community anymore.

I wouldn’t be the person asking the bakery to make a cake if I knew they didn’t want to. Yep, I don’t want someone spitting in my wedding cake.

68

When I lived in Louisiana we toured some antebellum mansions. Because of fire danger the kitchens were separate from the main house. At Oak Alley, the path from kitchen to dining room was named “the whistler’s walk”. Slaves bearing food were required to whistle while they carried the food. Most think this was so that they wouldn’t spit on the food.

Why would you want your food , and your wedding catered by those who are hostile? Why would you spend your good money on a product someone didn’t want to produce? Back in the 50s the Woolworth lunch counter was frequently the only downtown restaurant. Most people have choices now. I’m not advocating for the bakers that refuse to make cakes, but why not just give your substantial dollars to they other bakery ? Promote them on your web feed? My daughter refused to consider vendors who didn’t feature same-sex couples on their web site.

69

Yes, it’s really so wrong.

The reason why may not be obvious for a wedding cake. A wedding cake is not essential. You can live without it. You can even get married without it. Even if the couple getting married could not obtain a wedding cake because this bakery refused to provide it, it wouldn’t matter much.

But what if you’re the only roofer in town, and you refuse to fix the damaged roof of a house because the couple that resides there is “living in sin”?

What if you’re the only obstetrician in town and you refuse your services to a woman in labor because she’s unmarried?

Where do you draw the line?

70

This is one of the inconsistencies. Most of the cases I have heard of, the business says they are willing to sell the couple their product, just not for a wedding. So gay couple can go to the cake baker, request a cake for an elaborate catered party where they will have to work with the couple, deliver the cake, design something for a theme, etc. Just fine, no problem. So it’s not “fraternizing with the sinner homos” that’s a problem. BTW, if Christians think “fraternizing with sinners” is a problem for them, perhaps they should open the book once and awhile.

Ultimately, this is one of those things people are going to get over, just like letting blacks drink at the same fountains is something people got over. Most places anyway.

71

Wow, they set them up? Aside from right or wrong, what’s the big deal if there were other bakeries they could get a cake? They are out to exterminate all bigots? It’s as if gay people don’t do anything wrong. The first boy who asked my D out was gay knowingly. I am still fuming about it. She didn’t know he was gay but didn’t want to go out and said no and felt bad about it. How about all the children gay people produced? How are the kids supposed to deal with it?

72

^Wait, what?

73

I used to go out with a gay guy. It was pretty clear he was interested in me sexually, though I did not know he was gay at the time, but he was fun to be with. We always had a good time. We are still good friends. Some of my gay friends have kids some don’t. The kids seem fine.

74

I have gay friends, too. And I also find them fun to be with. I wouldn’t date them tho. I don’t know how gay people get sexually interested in opposite gender.

My point is we are not perfect, we all do something slightly off. It will be good if we stop when things are good enough. Isn’t it good enough if 80-90% of population are not bigots? Do you have to go after the remaining 10-20% when it doesn’t affect your life in any perceivable way?

75

@Igloo I am not understanding your point in post 70, though I guess you tried to clarify it further in post 73.

You ask how gay people can get sexually interested in the opposite gender. Some people just care about the person they are with and don’t care which gender they are and are happy to be romantically connected with either gender. This is called bisexual.

You ask how the children of gay couples are supposed to deal with it. I’m quite speechless. I know several young adults who have grown up with same sex parents and these kids are amazing and love their parents greatly. They appear proud of their same sex parents and advocate for gay rights. Having two loving parents is what most kids care about. Lots of kids grow up knowing only one parent and they do OK. Same with kids with gay parents. They don’t feel like they are “dealing” with anything and for them, it is normal and as good as it is for anyone else, if they have loving parents.

You ask isn’t it good enough if 80 to 90% of the population are not bigots? I wonder where you got that figure, for starters. My impression is that there are more than 10 to 20% of our country who are intolerant. Even so, nobody is “going after” those who are bigots. Rather, they are trying to have equal rights that others are afforded and the law stipulates that they are also afforded. They are not in the wrong. Those who refuse to serve or sell to certain populations based on their prejudices are in the ones in the wrong and against the law in fact.

You say that the small number of bigots doesn’t affect their lives in any perceivable way? Oh please. Yes, it does affect them to be refused a service or product where they wish to buy it or have others look down upon their offspring and so on and so forth. I don’t think the gay couple in the article was going after anyone. They have the right to buy a product they are interested in because they like that product or the convenience of the location, etc. just like ANYONE else.

Reading certain posts on this thread is so offensive to me that I hesitate to open it. We have a long way to go in this country.

76

Wow, they set them up? Aside from right or wrong, what’s the big deal if there were other bakeries they could get a cake? They are out to exterminate all bigots? It’s as if gay people don’t do anything wrong. The first boy who asked my D out was gay knowingly. I am still fuming about it. She didn’t know he was gay but didn’t want to go out and said no and felt bad about it. How about all the children gay people produced? How are the kids supposed to deal with it?"

What on earth are you trying to say?

As for the children gay people produce, I don’t know what you mean by “how are the kids supposed to deal with it.” Are you suggesting gay people shouldn’t have kids because other people might not like it? Isn’t that rather like suggesting an interracial couple shouldn’t have kids because others might not like it?

77

@Pizzagirl You may wish to use a quote box or attribute the first part of your post #75 to Igloo…it almost comes across that you are saying what he/she posted and you aren’t. :slight_smile:

78

Regarding gay boys dating girls (snd vice versa) - I’ve had many gay friends, and a couple were because I dated them first. Yes,a couple. I’ve since found this is very common, and it’s because, as teens, many young gay people are still struggling with the fact that they are gay (not a big surprise when you figure there are still people who won’t even sell you a cake because you are gay…)

Even now, when being gay is more socially acceptable, it is still considered out of the norm and they are not the majority. Our entire culture and society revolves around heterosexuality. How would that make a young person, who knows, deep down, they are NOT that, that they are “the other”, feel?

Also, it’s only recently that homosexuality has been socially accepted by MOST people - Many gay people married, knowing they were gay, because it was what’s expected of people. And what better way to hide that you are gay than to get married to someone of the opposite sex and have a family?
If you question why someone would do this, you can just search for history of abuses and murders of gay people, just in the last fifty years here in the US. The options were - fit into “normal” society, or maybe end up like Matthew Shepard or Brandon Teena. At the least, maybe your family and close friends disown you…

I understand the pain and disappointment felt when finding out your boyfriend or ex boyfriend is gay - but also consider where the young man was coming from, and his fears. He was trying to fit into a world where he’d otherwise be considered “not normal”, a “sinner”, etc.

79

In other words, using other people to suit you? I understand why they do. Just calling it out it’s not that honorable thing to do. We all do less honorable things at times. I think it’s better to just let it go instead of pursuing the last bigot in the universe.

80

Wow. How do folks reach adulthood without any semblance of compassion?