Cake decision

Parent Cafe
81

I don’t think anyone uses bisexual and gay interchangeably. Bisexuals asking out opposite gender is normal, gay asking out oppsite gender is not exactly normal.

I am glad to hear it. I am talking about kids whose parents coming out in mid-stream, and their spouses. I would think there must be a period of adjustment. Some will come out fine but not everyone, I would think. Are you saying it’s ok to lie to your spouse and children about your sexuality?

You may well be right on numbers. But in this particular case, my understanding is that all other bakeries would have made the cake for the couple. Do you have to pick every fight? I feel the same way when people bash smokers. There are so few of them, I would have thought people could leave them alone. No it won’t do, bad is bad and we will hunt down the last smoker.

82

Yes, actually we do have to “pick every fight.” It’s how social justice is finally achieved, by individuals being vigilant about speaking out against injustice and discrimination.

83

That’s not different from what extremists say. It ends up becoming divisive. There are fanatics on both sides.

84

You are missing my point by a mile. Most gay people producing children are through deceptive marriage. Their spouse and children were not told truth about their sexuality until they choose to come out. I would think most spouse and children were blindsided. The issue is deception not so much sexuality.

85

It seems like wedding cake bakers with religious objections could come up with a process that allows them to continue to discriminate, without much trouble. For example, if they start out by asking (in the initial appointment phone call or whatever) the name of the couple. If the names sound like two of one gender, they could say they already have too many orders or something bogus that gets them out of it. Yes, it is still discrimination, but it would be hard to prove without an overt statement of objection, because the plaintiff would need to show a pattern of discrimination. I’m sure discrimination goes on with all kinds of vendors all the time when they hear the name or location of a potential customer, or see what he looks like (such as black men in NYC trying to hail a cab - I heard that was a thing).

86

That’s no reason to drag other people in. I understand it’s a tough situation.

87

I don’t know where you get your figures, but many children with gay parents have parents who were a gay couple upon marriage or conception. Yes, there are some people who come out as gay later on in a marriage that is heterosexual. Your original point asking how children of gay parents deal with it, didn’t specify if the parents came out later or before conception. However, even in cases where a parent comes out well after having a child, it could be that the gay parent was still discovering their own sexuality and coming to terms with it and not purposely deceiving their spouse. It could be that they were from an era where it was so unconceivable to come out as gay that they were closeted and not even honest with themselves, let alone a spouse. It is not so simple. However, lots of discoveries can happen in a marriage…a spouse can discover their spouse is unfaithful, or that their spouse is a drug addict or alcoholic, or that the spouse is abusive, or that the spouse has addictions to debt, and many other major issues. The spouse may not have overtly lied when the wedding took place but these attributes evolved later or the spouse discovered them as time went on. Lots of things like this happen, not merely that one spouse is gay.

I don’t know what the couple in the article knew beforehand. They may have sought out the bakery that was closest or where they heard they made great cakes, etc. like anyone else. They likely didn’t know (or fathom) that this bakery was unwilling to sell their cakes to them until they got involved with them. At that point, they were being discriminated against and that is against the law and just is not right. I don’t see it as this couple seeking out this problem but that the problem came upon them in going about their everyday business and their rights were discriminated against. Imagine that they now have to shop around (according to your ideas) and try to find out ahead of time which formal wear shops, which bakeries, which caterers, which venues, which jewelers, which DJs, which florists, etc. are willing to sell to them. Why should they have to figure that out. You and I don’t have to do that.

88

Igloo, you are asking why they sued. This is how laws in the US work - we are a “common law” country, which means judges make law based on prior courts’ decisions, and even statutes get tested in and interpreted by the courts. Depending on how the court worded that decision, it could have bigger implications in the state - beyond gays and bakeries/cakes.

89

Lets say the bakery decorates the cakes to incorporate things about the couple. So, for a Jewish wedding, the cake might be topped with a mini chuppa. There might be a mini bride wearing a Star of David pendant around her neck–as the real bride does–and the groom might have dark hair and wear a yarmulke. The couple in the wedding topper might readily be identifiable to guests as the real life bride and groom.(There really are cake toppers made to look like couples.)

So, a gay couple comes in and wants a wedding cake. They want 2 men on the top of the cake. They want the two men to be kissing and holding rainbow flags and they too want the men to look like them. The baker says “I’m just not comfortable doing that.” Should that be illegal?

There’s a gay baker who works for a caterer… Members of the Westboro Baptist Church want him to bake a cake for their wedding. They want the figures on the cake to hold signs that says “God hates fags.” Does the baker have to make it? Should it be illegal for him to refuse? For the caterer to fire him if he refuses?

90

Didn’t there used to be housing discrimination that worked pretty much like this? If your name or accent indicated that you were of a certain ethnic group, the real estate agent simply wouldn’t have any houses to show you in certain neighborhoods.

It’s illegal now.

91

What are you basing this inflamatory opinion on?
From what I have read and experienced myself, truths about our own feelings and behavior are often not evident, except to the most self aware and mature adults.
When something is scary/ uncomfortable or even dangerous, such as being bisexual or gay in this culture, we can get very good about denying that reality, as a self protection mechanism without even realizing it.

For example, it took me 40 years, to fully realize that my first sexual experience was a rape. I had been concious, so I remembered what happened, but because I could not acknowledge even to myself, that it was rape, I blocked it out of my mind and shut down those memories.
That does not mean I was not affected, I was greatly affected, but it was too powerful to handle, so I pushed it away.

92

According to this article, it sounds like the question of whether the baker can refuse to do cake inscriptions was left unanswered, because it was not called for in the Colorado case.

Also, it looks like the baker is free to express (even via posted signs) his religious objections to same-sex marriage and other things, but he cannot refuse to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex couple.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/08/13/colorado-appellate-court-bakery-can-be-liable-for-refusing-to-bake-cake-for-same-sex-wedding/

93

Yes I know it is, and acknowledged that those types of activities are discriminatory, but we all have heard or know first hand, that they still go on.

94

For those who disagree with the court’s decision, I am wondering how you would feel if you had been discriminated against for any reason (not just sexual orientation) like this or if your own child was. I know I would feel terrible, and much worse if it happened to my kid.

95

When my youngest son was in Montessori pre-k in MA they had a mom and me tea. I was home schooling my older 2 kids. The invite said just mom no younger kids because they would be distracting, my older kids we old enough to sit on the play ground with a book but not old enough to be left at home 30 minutes away. I showed up with my two older kids and was told to leave because there “wasn’t enough space” to allow a family to have more than one family member present. The kid with “two mommies” was allowed to have both their moms present in the building and when it came to the “dad’s” date they were also allowed to have both “moms” present because they were both “dad’s” too.

Heterosexual families were only allowed one representative per family but homosexual families were allowed two. I consider this discrimination.

96

Apparently when the Colorado incident occurred, gay marriage was not lawful in CO.

If a baker refused to bake a wedding cake for polygamists, would people be upset?

97

Soozievt, would you be equally bothered if your child were simply refused service for reasons having nothing to do with his or her orientation?

I’m still grappling with a few things. Do you all personally think it would be ok to, say, only do weddings/cakes/music for one group and exclude every other? For example, only Orthodox weddings. And if you had a business catering to and specializing in Orthodox weddings (or even Muslim weddings) and a gay couple wanted to get married there, would you consider that discrimination or not because the business would exclude everyone not that religion. Would it bother you less/more if the professional refusing service were other than Christian?

98

“don’t see a problem with the band”.

Of course many people have bands of different faiths at different weddings.

But is it a question of good behavior and tolerance, or is it a question of the law?

" Heterosexual families were only allowed one representative per family but homosexual families were allowed two. I consider this discrimination. "

Yes, it is certainly the case where limits that “were logical” now have to be broken. But note - WHY were there limits in the first place? Because having “mom’s day” and “dad’s day” are sexist and discriminatory.

My son just filled out his health form for college. They asked:

  • gender (which could be left blank)
  • pronoun preference (including “ze”)
  • sexual orientation (which could be left blank)

If someone identifies as neither gender, which day do they go to as a parent?

I just wish they would start banning sexism (for both genders) with the dedication that judges are banning homophobia.

Back to the story:
From the Washington Post article:
“We recognize that section 24-34-601(2)(a) of CADA prohibits Masterpiece from displaying or disseminating a notice stating that it will refuse to provide its services based on a customer’s desire to engage in same-sex marriage or indicating that those engaging in same-sex marriage are unwelcome at the bakery. However, CADA does not prevent Masterpiece from posting a disclaimer in the store or on the Internet indicating that the provision of its services does not constitute an endorsement or approval of conduct protected by CADA. Masterpiece could also post or otherwise disseminate a message indicating that CADA requires it not to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation and other protected characteristics. Such a message would likely have the effect of disassociating Masterpiece from its customers’ conduct.”

So the baker could post quotes from the Bible, and from Westboro Baptist, etc., in his bakery, because that is his right, but he would also have to make wedding cakes for same-sex couples’ weddings. He could post the teachings of Jesus as well as specific anti-Jewish bible verses on his walls, as well as anti-Muslim and anti-atheist materials. But he’d still have to do business with Jews and Muslims and atheists?

I do see that the idea of “clubs” / “member-only” businesses will become popular to avoid these rules. If you buy anything at the bakery, you have to pay a $5 joining fee, and since it is a club, doesn’t the bakery have a right to refuse membership, and thereby refuse service?

https://www.thrillist.com/entertainment/new-york/nyc-social-clubs-members-only

(again, they can not allow women and everyone is fine with that)

99

I would be upset if a baker, jeweler, bridal salon, etc. refused to serve or sell to me based on discrimination for race, religion, or sexual orientation. It would be different if we were talking of a chaplain/rabbi/immam or place of worship wanting to only conduct a ceremony based on that religious house of worship’s beliefs. But I do believe that a public business should not discriminate for these things, nor for polygamy.

100

I think you’d have a case if the families of a gay couple were allowed to have older children present and you were not. But in the case you describe, it sounds like an event was for “mommy and me” and some kids have two mommies…either a lesbian relationship with their parents, or kids with step families who have a mom and step-mom in their lives. Same with the Dad and me event. The idea was for a kid and their parent of that gender to attend. They kept that consistent with all families. They kept older children away from the event for all families. I do not see how an event like that can turn away a mom or dad who is legitimately a mom or dad of the student, be it a gay couple or a step parent.