<p>After reading this article - <a href=“http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf[/url]”>http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf</a> - I’ve become kind of skeptical of people claiming that many kids are not developmentally ready for algebra by 8th grade. I specifically found this part interesting -</p>
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<p>Good article, warbrain. The problem really does come down to educating the educators.
I’m not holding my breath.</p>
<p>A new rule like “must complete algebra by 8th” never actually works with a deadline of next year or year after. It needs to be set to work after 5-8 years where the incremental effort of teaching more math has to start in 1st grade or kindergarten where they keep pushing some of the concepts earlier. You have to go all the way to the beginning and add a little bit at each level. People need instant gratification and want everything implemented in one or two years, it would never ever work.</p>
<p>** cross posted with moonchild & texaspg</p>
<p>Teacher training can often be a problem - and the biggest problem is that THEY were not taught solid math skills. I was originally certified in CA before moving to my current state. In both places, I tutored many adults who could not pass the math portion of the state basic skills tests needed to become a teacher. Some had taken and failed it numerous times before I tutored them. If the teachers are struggling to understand the math, and have only “memorized” the way to perform certain problems, than how can they be expected to give a deeper understanding of the concepts to the children they teach?</p>
<p>I feel that math teachers should be certified for elementary school the same way they are certified for secondary education - even if it were only required for a generation of teachers - until we could get the general populace to be more comfortable with math. But I won’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen!</p>
<p>Oh- and regarding Statistics - I believe it should be given more weight and importance than it currently is. If the general population had a better understanding of statistical information, they would be in a better place to analyze and evaluate the myriad of “statistical data” that news groups, special interest groups, etc. put out there.</p>
<p>Great conversation…i have found that many primary teachers are not great math teachers …they follow the curriculum but many were not top students in high school and don’t have the foundation.</p>
<p>We have math acceleration (in our school district) starting in 2nd grade and allow kids who clearly grasp the concepts to keep moving forward. Some of our administrators are now questioning acceleration because some parents push their kids to be in the advanced math for social reasons (and back it up with a tutor). My S2 is irritated at this situation…he is now a freshman in college and feels that he would have been bored if he had been made to stay on pace with the average student. The problem is that with the new Common Core and teachers being graded on student outcomes, teachers don’t want to risk challenging students beyond what is required…S2 was allowed to be with the “double accelerated kids” in the grade ahead of his…and thus was able to take the Alg/Geom/Alg 2 seq (called Math A & Math B in NY) in 6-8 and take AP Stat and Pre Calc in 9, Calc AB in 10, Calc BC in 11 and HL Math (IB) in 12…my S1 took Calc AB in 11th and struggled…some kids are just better at math…
But in order to raise the standards we have to teach the teachers better so they are not afraid of being challenged by kids…a competent math teacher in primary grades is necessary if standards are to be raised as Arnie Duncan is requiring.<br>
Anyone have any thought on the latest fashion in math “singapore math”…we just rolled it out this year…</p>
<p>Singapore Math is great stuff. Cheap and effective, especially with word problems. We used it for a few years with our daughter.</p>
<p>Better teachers and curricula would help, but lots of students will not retain what they are taught about math, because they simply are not smart enough, explained in a essay by a high school math teacher:</p>
<p>[The</a> myth of they werent ever taught .](<a href=“http://educationrealist.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2012/07/01/the-myth-of-they-werent-ever-taught/]The”>The myth of “they weren’t ever taught….” | educationrealist)</p>
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<p>That’s a pretty odd way to put it. You state that they were able to learn it once implying that they are smart enough but that they are not smart enough to retain it.</p>
<p>I feel that having other courses that use the math learned helps in retention. I also feel that activities like MathCounts or Family Math Nights helps to use and reinforce materials learned. Studying biology, physics and chemistry reinforce arithmetic and algebra. So does discussing economic reports that come out weekly and monthly. This stuff can be done at school but I think that you add far more value when you do it at home. Of course this requires educated parents.</p>
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<p>Certification is no panacea. Considering the overall level of the K-12 teachers, it is obviously not the answer to the problem. Stopping to scrape the bottom of the mediocrity barrel to fill the pipeline of teachers might be a good start. </p>
<p>Is there any good reason why passing a tougher selection process before starting and having NO third, fourth, and more chances to pass basic exams is such a hard requirement. Why do we expect that the least performing and academically poorest students in higher education should become … great teachers, especially in an environment that hardly rewards excellence and dedication?</p>
<p>It will get worse before it gets better!</p>
<p>I’m always amazed by the adults that have issues with simple things like percentages. </p>
<p>That being said, I’m a math person so I never struggled with this… But that’s elementary stuff.</p>
<p>My friends first grader was quizzing me on multiplication the other day. I remember we learned that in second grade so I guess that’s been moved up some over the last 25 years?</p>
<p>Sent from my DROID BIONIC using CC</p>
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<p>Not necessarily. Your friend’s child could be learning at home, or on his own if he’s very bright and interested.
Or he/she may “know” a few times tables, but not really understand what multiplication means. If a child can illustrate the principles, either on paper or with objects, then they get it.<br>
I think kids are certainly “smart enough” to handle Algebra in 8th if they have the background in the early years. Most do not.</p>
<p>Moonchild – that sounds like a very cool (post #37) way to introduce math to young kids. So concrete, and they get to move around while doing it. </p>
<p>It would be great if all kids were ready for algebra in 8th grade. They aren’t though, and passing a law doesn’t make it so! </p>
<p>couple of anecdotes – I was helping in a 5th grade classroom in California, a couple of years ago, just for an hour or two a week, trying to catch some of the kids up on multiplication/addition and subtraction. There are so many kids that are waaaay behind. I was working with some of them who still did not know how to add and subtract beyond plus or minus two. I believe most of them could catch up with a lot of one on one practice, but they are not going to get it. They were eager for the one on one attention in the back of the classroom, though, for the few months I was volunteering my time, and every one of them improved to some degree. I wish they could all get the time and attention they need to master basic math. In the meantime, I think they just zone out in class because they don’t have the tools to do grade level math. </p>
<p>Years before that, I remember helping out in my daughter’s third grade classroom once, and the kids were trying to do some word problems. I was showing one kid how to do a problem that he didn’t understand, and it turned out that his teacher (great teacher in many ways, but not very good at math) had previously taught them to do the problem in a way which led to the wrong answer. Awkward . . .</p>
<p>“Certification is no panacea. Considering the overall level of the K-12 teachers, it is obviously not the answer to the problem. Stopping to scrape the bottom of the mediocrity barrel to fill the pipeline of teachers might be a good start.”</p>
<p>While I don’t think that certification is a general panacea, I probably didn’t explain very well. I’m just thinking that it would make sense to require that teachers be specially certified to teach math-even at the elementary level. Which would require them to be somewhat more advanced in their math skills, the way secondary math teachers must be able to do algebra/trig/calculus to become certified. I’m also not certain why states let people take the test multiple times in a very short time frame. I came to teaching after earning my bachelor’s and master’s in the math/sciences and couldn’t believe that when I had to take “Teaching Math” or “Teaching Science” classes that we actually spent the majority of the time LEARNING math and science in an effort to get some people “up to speed.” </p>
<p>Anyway…don’t want to get started- teacher certification is a whole other thread…</p>
<p>My original point here was just that-while simply making Algebra mandatory for absolutely everyone does nothing to actually raise the level of math knowledge, it is possible to start young and give children the critical thinking skills and analytical strategies they need to gain confidence in math (and other subject areas, as well) and thereby greatly increase the number of students who would be ready for Algebra in 8th grade.</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>I should also have made clear that I agreed with the requirement of mastering the subject taught. Generalists and specialists in early development have a clear role to play, and a role in which the pedagogy training that is the bulk of the focus in our colleges that offer programs in education can be useful. This role does, however, take a secondary importance by the start of middle school, and should be replaced by the teaching of subjects, and only by teachers who have gained the necessary qualifications.</p>
<p>All of my kids took algebra 1 in 8th grade, just because that’s how they were tracking. However, not everyone needs calculus. In fact, I would argue that MOST do not. There was no need for my music major or my communications major to take calculus.</p>
<p>^ I never understood why US schools and colleges force so many additional courses if one clearly has no interest in it. Someone recently told me their kid was going to TAMS, a residential science magnet program at University of North Texas, just to avoid US history and other non-science requirements in 11 and 12th. I assume there are liberal arts kids who want to avoid Math and Science classes as they get harder in high school.</p>
<p>The liberal arts don’t include math and science?</p>
<p>You cannot equate avoiding Algebra and upper level math to avoiding History and English. People who are not proficient writers and do not know history will be considered ignorant for the rest of their lives and there will be unavoidable times when it will be painfully obvious. No one will ever know if someone doesn’t take or is bad at Algebra/Calculus.</p>
<p>Cartera - I find that knowing sports is lot more important in work place. Never needed anything specific about history in 27 years.</p>