<p>I would like to talk to you about the way your kids progressed in math and how much your intervention helped in sending them on the right path.
I have a very bright 12 year old, gifted across spectrum but in math especially. Started out in private school that was not at all helpful to him, moved him out to public after 4th grade. He was tested in the spring of 4th grade and the new school offered im the highest math program they were offering that year-Algebra 1. I was very greatful, especially since it happened without any intervention from us, the parents. In 6th grade he took HS Geometry, now is ready for Algebra2. He maintains A+ . I know that he is ready to learn Algebra 2 over the summer, but we did not push for that. On the other hand I know for sure that half the time he is spending in his Algebra 2 class next year will be wasted, since he grasps new concepts much faster than his older peers. The school has a policy that does not allow for partial enrolment, ex. home schooling for part of the day or just for one subject. Also, I have to add that I like the school -kids have one hour of Spanish every day, are learning Chinese.
He does things on his own. Last summer he participated in summer camp for the gifted at the colorado university, he takes classes from AOPS and belongs to a local math circle. School does AMC, Math Olympiad and State Math Contest.
I quess my only problem is for him to have a more productive time while at school, so then after school he does not have to play a catch up game. There is other things he loves to do (planes, fencing, music).
So my quesions is for those of you who are , have been ,in the same situation. How did you handle your child’s extreme curiosity/ability in math?</p>
<p>The most difficult time for us was when D was in 7th/8th grade. Luckily, there was a core group of about 6 students who were very advanced in math, and the district we were in let them be taught separately. Regardless, she was still pretty bored in most of her classes then. Once she got into high school and was in all honors and AP classes, her school work kept her challenged more. She basically exhausted the high school’s math curriculum after jr. year…our district, as most, allows for high school kids to take classes at the local jr. college; however, she didn’t want to totally disrupt her hs schedule by fitting college classes in. She took a basically brainless math class first semester of sr. year, and second semester, she did Calc III as an “independent study” course with some other math whizzes. </p>
<p>Although I think my involvement did play a part (especially when having to argue for her ability to “break the rules” and take AP Calc as a sophomore), and writing multiple letters to the district when advanced programs seemed to be in danger of losing funding, it was her self-motivation that was the key. Also, I really, really wanted her to still “be a kid” and enjoy high school (is that an oxymoron?)…kids already grow up too fast. She was able to channel many of her mathematical skills in other directions—computer programming, advanced physics, etc. You’ll see people here on CC who do self-study college courses on top of their regular workload…it all depends on the kid. Take advantage of your kid’s other interests in music, fencing, etc. to help him take up for the “slack” he may feel when he maxxes out his options in math. Also, as he gets into high school, he may get all his challenges from the classes that he doesn’t particularly like and has to work harder in. My D sweated out AP English Lang her jr year, and AP English Lit all senior year…but she’s a much better writer now, and she blew me away with some of her work.</p>
<p>One of the biggest issues with kids at your son’s age is helping them learn some humility and dealing with being a math whiz (we had an excellent gifted program who addressed some of this at that age). Also, making sure your son is comfortable with being seen by his peers as a math “geek”. Unfortunately, it is totally NOT COOL to be smart in most high schools, and the best you can do is work on self-esteem issues so that your kid can deal with some of the fall-out of this. I can take no credit in this for my D—she was always very mature and totally OK with not being in the “popular” crowd. Even then, there were still times that were pretty tough for her. With all her accolades and awards, her nomination of being on the “Prom Court” senior year probably blew her away more than anything else!!! </p>
<p>Good luck and congrats on having a math whiz. He’s got a bright future ahead of him.</p>
<p>EPGY at Stanford offers the best online math classes available. Highly recommend you check it out. In addition, EPGY is expanding this year I believe to offering a full range of high school courses.<br>
Have you checked out the Davidson Foundation, which was created to support highly gifted children?</p>
<p>I second the EPGY suggestion. We live far from Stanford (east of the Mississippi), but I found this to be the best option for S to continue in math after he exhausted local curriculum. Another local math kid utilized this as well. S did a math program at Stanford the summer before his senior year where he started a real analysis class (they did 1/3 of it live) and then he completed it on his own during the school year. I think they have several summer opportunities, some for kids as young as yours. Good luck!</p>
<p>I have heard and looked extensively into EPGY - but they are on the high end as far as pricing goes = expensive. He has been doing AOPS classes, as I have mentioned, and they are challenging and take him more into the problem
solving area, not just core math.
Yes, I do totally believe in letting him be a kid for as long as possible (scout camp this past week;-), this is one of the reasons we did not go ahead with a grade skip, as suggested by his school. We felt that he would be among older kids, but not smarter kids.
Yes, I am well familiar with Davidson in Nevada. We are actually thinking about sending him to THINK next summer, as this is a summer institute that has the highest requirements as far as SAT scores go.
Astrophysicsmom - you right right on the ball with self esteem issues. He has found his own way of dealing with it which seems to be working - he can make fun of himself. He is actually quite liked at school at this point, a plus is also a fact that he cares not that much about what others think about him. Well, maybe not that, but he doesn’t let this affect him. But the fact that he is a joker helps tons.
Beside to beeing really smart, he plays violin - doesn’t help at all.</p>
<p>Kelowna:</p>
<p>I’ve already described my own S’s math trajectory, but I’ll repeat it here. </p>
<p>S was not accelerated in school, but was clearly advanced; he also was attending a math circle. At the end of 6th grade, we talked to the 7/8 grade math teacher, who, unlike previous teachers, was a specialist in math (the others had been generalists). He gave S the textbooks for 8th grade math to look over the summer. S glanced at them and said he’d covered all the materials already on his own (and he had). When fall came, the teacher told him he could do math on his own, together with other kids who were advanced. He gave S a copy of a precalculus book and told S get on with it. Of the other 3 kids, one was doing 9/10 grade math; one was a 7th grader doing 8th grade math and the third was a 7th grader like S who was also doing precalc. They were all doing math on their own in a corner of the classroom while the teacher taught the rest of their classmates. S and the other precalc students had their work assigned and corrected by their dads; the parents of the other 2 hired tutors to come once or twice a week to explain difficult concepts, assign homework and correct it. </p>
<p>The issue for these kids was not what they could do outside school, but how to avoid covering materials they already knew. In fact, the more enriched the kids were outside school, the more of a gap there was between the regular curriculum and what they knew. We were lucky that the teacher was willing for the kids to dispense with the regular curriculum altogether, even if it meant that the kids had to dispense with his assistance as well (EPGY did not seem an option at our school).</p>
<p>I know of a kid in a suburban district who was doing Honors Algebra II as a 4th grader. The disctrict sent a high school math teacher to his elementary school as he was too young to go to the high school. </p>
<p>I’ve read of some young kids who’ve taken algebra at the Harvard Extension School (they’re both homeschooled). Your child might be able to attend a community college if it’s convenient.
Another option besides EPGY might be the Virtual High School.</p>
<p>Do reconsider the recommended grade skip- that will allow him to get to the higher level courses sooner. Definitely read all you can about gifted education, you have a child with special needs. My son did an early entry, later grade “skip” (was in multi grade classes) and now is in college- with HS students in his honors physics. We found it much easier to meet his educational needs in middle and especially HS than elementary school. It sounds like your son doesn’t need all the years in the lower grades to mature, go ahead and let him proceed. An important criteria is his desire - if he wants to do the grade skip it will be successful. Being gifted means asynchronous development so there will never be a perfect fit, I have many interesting (to me) tales of my son’s situations. Forging ahead will not make your son lose any of his childhood- he’ll probably enjoy all the middle school and HS activities, finding matching friends as he progresses. Feel free to PM me.</p>
<p>It sounds like you’ve basically done the grade skip subject acceleration thing and what you really need is for your son to have a faster paced math class. I’d guess your kid is smart enough to teach himself math. In your shoes I’d lobby for an independent study in math where he could aim to do two years curriculum in one, or do the Algebra 2 curriculum, but compliment it with some independent topics. A book my son enjoyed very much that covered a lot of things not covered in high school math was The Book of Numbers by John Conway and Richard Guy: <a href=“The Book of Numbers - John H. Conway, Richard Guy - Google Books”>The Book of Numbers - John H. Conway, Richard Guy - Google Books; He also learned a lot of interesting math when he took a game theory and probability course at CTY. One of the things they covered was Matrix arithmetic. </p>
<p>One way or another gifted mathematicians deserve to be accelerated. Holding them back is like making you ski on the bunny slope. Not only is it boring, you can’t get any better.</p>
<p>we need to remember that emotional IQ is just as important “regular” IQ</p>
<p>CGM, what does that have to do with anything? If anything being in the right level math class is much easier to cope with than constantly being bored out of your skull. My son was sooo much happier and at ease with himself once we finally got him accelerated in math. I’m advocating subject acceleration, not grade acceleration.</p>
<p>CGM:
Actually, in 6th grade, S put the math classes to good use–at least in his own estimation. He constructed origami planes, which involved often rather advanced geometry (S aced the geometry section of the SAT the following year). Once they were built, they were flown in class, to see which ones had the best design–at least so it was claimed. Which meant that other kids got to spend their time the same way S was–not studying math. Why should S alone have wasted four hours of class a week, for 36 weeks?<br>
I suggest an alternative to building origami planes: twiddling your thumbs. It’s an art. Builds character. Increases social skills, improves emotional IQ.<br>
BUT, after one year of origami planes, the teachers were very happy to have S function at his level, which happened to be 5 grades above what his classmates were doing.</p>
<p>DS’s math teacher in 5th grade taught an interesting combo pre-Alg/1st semester Alg I class that also included matrix arithmetic, set theory and Z-tables. He was radically subject (not grade) accelerated in math through the public school system via some full-day specialized GT programs. It provided enough of a critical mass of kids that they brought in teachers to teach the kids at their intellectual level, but with their age peers.</p>
<p>Has your S read The Number Devil or In Code? DS enjoyed those a lot. He also sings the praises of Wikipedia for explanations of theorems, etc.</p>
<p>One suggestion is to look at USAMTS – it’s a math talent search that has four problem sets a year. They give out medals, but it’s not a big competition. If your son is doing Alg II now, the problems will be quite challenging, but they may launch him into new ways about thinking of math. RE: AOPS – good move. When he’s a bit older, there are some cool summer math programs available, many of which are discussed on AOPS.</p>
<p>Is he interested in programming? When DS hit a lull in the pace of math in middle school, he started programming. Good programming requires excellent math skills – USACO (<a href=“http://www.usaco.org%5B/url%5D”>www.usaco.org</a>) offers a terrific online training curriculum and it’s FREE! This is much, much more than force-the-code-so-it-works programming – it requires the ability to solve the problems using algorithms and high-level math. DS came full-circle back to math when he went to a summer math program to (ironically) help him with his algorithm skills for CS. He is not a math star in terms of hardware, awards, etc. – he doesn’t enjoy the competitions that much – but he truly loves the subject. </p>
<p>Marite – your post reminded me that DS and many of his math-inclined friends went through a paper plane phase at that age, too. The math program DS attended last year has a mathematician who uses origami to teach college geometry, and the kids at the program just ate it up.</p>
<p>We have found that when DS was appropriately challenged, his emotional well-being soared. He learned to use his strengths as a way to build social bridges to others, and it has paid off in spades. I wish his toxic third grade teacher was still in the area so she could see him now. I would get no small amount of joy from it. ;)</p>
<p>I guess I have issues with the OP, his kid is only going into 7th grade and he is asking all kinds of questions on other threads about getting into the IVYS and $$ and such, so I wonder about the real purpose of the questions</p>
<p>Marite, had to laugh here…
My S was making elaborate paper planes in 4th grade math at private school. The teacher (a very, very nice, gentle woman) called me and said she unerstands he is bored, but that he still has to show respect by paying attention to the class (he was making those planes under his desk, later selling them to other kids - I had no idea). </p>
<p>CGM - I understand abouth the whole emotional IQ issue, but to me being among the kids who share you intelligence is more important. Son was never happier than when he attended “smart” camp last summer. And he always seems to be less mature among his agemates. Seems…</p>
<p>Origami is serious stuff! When S visited Brown on his college tour, a math prof showed him a book by a physicist, Robert Lang, called the Mathematics of Origami. It’s a gorgeous book. Lang has given lectures at MIT and Erik Demaine, (an MIT math prof at 21) leads the MIT origami club. It does seem that lots of mathy kids are attracted to origami. </p>
<p>But to get back to your original query, we found the most important thing was to work closely with teachers who were willing to be flexible. If a kid is very advanced, ditch the curriculum entirely, don’t ask him to first do the regular work before he can tackle enrichment. Usually, the regular work is make-work that does nothing but kill time (little better than twiddling thumbs), but does not leave enough time for the student to really get into more challenging work. Some teachers absolutely insist on this scenario, others are willing to administer a pre-test and assess whether the student should skip a particular unit or the whole curriculum. We had experience with both kinds.</p>
<p>This guy is really interesting (I know him personally), and you may find some useful tidbits on his website in addition to his book, Project Origami. <a href=“http://www.merrimack.edu/~thull/index.html[/url]”>http://www.merrimack.edu/~thull/index.html</a></p>
<p>Marite
What do you mean when you write to ditch curriculum entirely? What kind of enrichement are you talking about - problem solving?
Math concepts build on each other, so if you have a gap, you can’t really go forward without problems.
I agree with compacting, and will probably advocate for him to do Algebra 2 and Pre Calc within one year. His teacher explains things in a good way, my son says, but she lacks passion for math. Ir her passion os difficult to notice.</p>
<p>I can so relate to what you are going through!!! My son also is very talented in math and as been since he was in 1st grade. I had to be very aggressive in insisting he get put into accelerated math program when he was in 3rd grade, That put him on track to take Calculus when he was HS freshman. Looking back, that was one of the best things I did. He was able to continue to move ahead in math, though not necessarily at pace he likes. But he did have to learn to be very flexible. He traveled to other school for math every day which meant he might have missed class or special events at his regular school. On the positive, he knew kids at middle school and high school before he actually attended!! In fact, I’ve told him that he should include in his college applications that he spent 5 yrs in middle school and will spend 6 yrs in high school, while still graduating when he is 17!! </p>
<p>Once he finished HS math courses, he took class at local college. For 2 of them, he was fortunate to have rec’d scholarship from JHU talent search. The other was at local county college. To keep him engaged, he participates in USAMTS, AIME, AMC. For the latter two, we had to pay for him to enter, since school hadnt really considered. Also we look for local high school math contests for him to enter. Even entered him in MIT-Harvard math competition. Could see that he felt bad that he was there alone while so many other students were there as part of school group. But he’s still OK with doing on his own because he really does like math. </p>
<p>He’s also very good academically in sciences and has taken advantage of faced-paced science offered by the JHU CTY program. He loved the pace of those classes and actually retained so much info!!. He skipped the intro class for chemistry and went directly to AP Chem – got A+ in 3 of the 4 marking periods. </p>
<p>To keep him engaged, he participates in lots of activites at school – debate, band, stage crew, and others. Overall, he likes what he had done over the last couple of years. When we suggested he skip grade, he refused – wanted to stay with his friends and go through all of HS. </p>
<p>Sorry if this is too long, but I think hearing what others have gone through helps you decide how you want to best support your child. In the long run, giving them opporutnities to be challenged as well as trying out new and different things is the best thing you can do for your child. Good luck!!</p>
<p>Kelowna:</p>
<p>Before 7th grade, the teachers insisted that S follow the grade-level curriculum, do the assigned work, and if time allowed, do some enrichment (which we would have had to provide). That is often the case. In the 7th grade, the teacher allowed him to ditch the 7th grade curriculum entirely and go straight to pre-calc, which would normally be an 11th grade curriculum. He lent S the textbook, which S covered by Christmas. </p>
<p>I don’t believe in making the student sit through grade-level math class bored out of his mind. As I wrote, it’s four hours a week for 36 weeks. That adds up to 152 hours of boredom in a school year. If a kid has already covered Algebra II by 6th grade (ordinarily a 9th or 10th grade math curriculum), there is no reason to make him suffer through 7th and 8th grade math. The student should be allowed to continue on. </p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>We also had a math wiz on our house. We took a very different track. </p>
<p>Our S went to public school. Early in his grade school career a teacher started using him as her adjunct teacher’s assistant. I was not too pleased - feeling that he should be given higher level work that he as obivously capable of doing. We let that continue and supported his teacher and did fun math games at home. He did CTY for two summers, but we never accelerated him beyond the highest level of math his grade was offered. </p>
<p>Fast forward to his senior year - he was still the “go to” guy for any math or science help. The phone rang off the hook with kids with questions. Sunday afternoons he frequently held court at the local coffee shop helping the valadictorian and others get through Calc. His college recs were glowing and singled out this aspect of his personality.</p>
<p>We felt that school was not a race - first one through calc CD wins? We knew he would run out of math offered by the school district in mid-high school if we pushed to get him accelerated. We felt taking higher level math at a top-ranked 4 year college is much better than trying to fit community college classes into a pack HS schedule with sports, music, and friends. We also felt that very important things to learn were how to find motivation yourself, how to help others, and you will not be challenged 24/7 so learn how to deal with it. </p>
<p>Hopefully when he hits the “real world” and has to do all those mundane parts of any job we all have to suffer through, he will do them with grace and humor. In the mean time he is looking forward to going to a great college where the kids all click along at his pace and the professors are top notch.</p>