Campus Crusades

[lealdragon]

<p>“does anyone else think “Crusades” is a poor choice of name for a Christian organization, given what the Crusades were, historically speaking?”</p>

<p>Um, I think it’s very appropriate and probably intentional.</p>

<hr>

<p>Posts # 32 & 33: Well said! With a minor modification: It’s not just fundamentalist Christianity I would have a problem with. Fundamentalist Islam is obviously worse. So I would have a problem with any fanatical, elitist religion that teaches ONLY its adherents are ‘saved’ and all else condemned. I would embrace any faith my son chooses as long as it is based on LOVE and PEACE, and not hate/judgment/elitism/fear/violence/oppression.</p>

<p>and this:</p>

<p>“(As for Jesus calling on his disciples to hate their mothers and fathers, wives and children, brothers and sisters, and being unmarried himself at a time when an unmarried rabbi was an oxymoron, I would have thought he could be gay, and had an unpleasant family experience. Seems to me to be as good an explanation as any. But who knows?)”</p>

<p>Well, there is actually quite a case to be made that he was married…to Mary Magdalene. (See ‘Holy Blood Holy Grail’ among others.)</p>

<hr>

<p>“If we were restrict our beliefs to nothing more than what Jesus explicitly said, then the Bible wouldn’t need all those books after John or before Matthew.”</p>

<p>WOW! What a GREAT idea!!! Just base the religion on the teachings of JESUS! Hey, even I would go for that! Just think: we’d eliminate all that nasty hate and prejudice and violence in the old testament, Paul’s chauvinism, and pretty much all the justification for war, hate, intolerance…and we’d be left with the teachings of the MASTER…love, peace. </p>

<p><a href=“http://jesusisaliberal.com/[/url]”>http://jesusisaliberal.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<hr>

<p>There is another book that attempts to strip away all the fluff and get down to just what Jesus really said. The title is misleading, but it’s called ‘The Christian Conspiracy.’ Great read.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“According to this system, ALL are doomed, every single thing in the universe is doomed, including all infants, you and I. All are infected with sin and that means all are innately incompatible with a perfectly righteous God – even infants. God may choose to save some infants. But only He knows who He will save. All are doomed. And, you know, there is consistency here with this and with the way the God of the Hebrews completely eradicated the Amalekites, for example-- slaughtering men, women, infants, and even their cattle. If all is already in a state of being doomed, then this is simply no great issue at all.”</p>

<p>Blech. <shudder> Sorry, but that is REALLY creepy! Why on earth would anyone WANT to spend eternity with a God like that???</shudder></p>

<hr>

<p>I think I like this better:</p>

<p>Original Blessing: A Primer in Creation Spirituality Presented in Four Paths, Twenty-Six Themes, and Two Questions</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Original-Blessing-Spirituality-Presented-Twenty-Six/dp/1585420670/sr=1-1/qid=1165544992/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5970522-5421614?ie=UTF8&s=books[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/Original-Blessing-Spirituality-Presented-Twenty-Six/dp/1585420670/sr=1-1/qid=1165544992/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-5970522-5421614?ie=UTF8&s=books&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>from a review:</p>

<p>"Like all works of genius, the thesis is simple and elegant. Fox’s central claim is that Christianity in the west (not so much in the orthodox east) has focused upon the nonscriptural notion of original sin at the expense of scripture’s exuberant message of joyful original blessing. Original sin, which appears to be the fifth-century contribution of Augustine, generates a worldview centering around a primordial fall salvaged by a bloody sacrifice (Christ’s). From this way of approaching reality, humans are depraved, the world is fallen, and experiences such as beauty or the erotic are immediately suspect as temptations. The original blessing model, which Fox claims can be traced back to the Genesis account of God’s creation of a “good” universe, argues instead for a panentheism that sees God–and God’s goodness, light, beauty, and love–in (but not exhausted by) the created order, thereby opening up the possibility that humans are good because made in God’s image, and that the world and all of God’s gifts should be celebrated rather than condemned.</p>

<p>Put slightly differently: the original sin model sees fallenness as the norm and goodness (which, given our depraved nature, is possibly only by grace, which in turn becomes a kind of magic bullet) the exception. The original blessing model sees goodness and continuous grace as the norms, and fallenness as the exception.</p>

<p>Fox isn’t naive. He recognizes that sin exists, and that it does great damage in the world. But he sees the cause of sin in dualism–the artificial splintering or fragmentation of God’s reality into opposing and hence warring dyads–heaven and earth, eros and agape, man and woman, us and them, human and nature. This fragmentation not only violates the wholeness (and holiness) of creation, but sets in motion psychological and social currents that lead to violence.</p>

<p>How different both Christianity and the world would be today had our foremothers and fathers counted their original blessings instead of morbidly fixating on original sin! Hopefully, the Church is becoming more aware of its forgotten identity. Please, read this book and discover a new and liberating way to live and think your faith."</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

guess I don’t see God as so righteous if He creates Shinto babies just to cast them into the lake of fire to suffer…without even giving them an opportunity to repent and seek forgiveness for whatever sins they committed in their 6-month lives. What kind of standard of perfection is that? Frankly, I hope to do a lot better than that for any children I create.

I can’t see that any of this matters. If the whole world is condemned, then I see no meaning in anything. It just does not matter that the entire human race should disappear overnight, leaving only sand on the earth. Shinto babies have literally no more value than Beanie Babies. But if God should save some by making them Perfect, well, then there is meaning, and He is it. I am not sure this is Evangelical thinking, but it is as far as I can see things.</p>

<p>

In my book, love DOES require you to give all your children a chance to do right. If you had two children, and you loved them both, would you teach one right from wrong and just let the other one fester in ignorance?

Well, all I can suggest here is that you follow your book to the best of your ability. I don’t mean to be flippant here. I mean it. You obviously see your way clear on this, and your way is leading you to your book above any other. So go for it. I cannot see my way clear to your book. All I can see is complete and utter meaninglessness apart from God-- no love, no innate value in anything. But when I see Him, then I see quite a limitless range of possibilities and reasons. I sincerely do not see a moral requirement upon God to save something that has no innate value.</p>

<p>

If a human parent did that, I’d conclude that he didn’t love the neglected child. If God really does let the souls of Hindu children burn, then IMHO my mom, who taught all four of her daughters and gave all four of us a chance to follow her, is more perfect than God.

Only if you somehow see innate meaning in this idea called “love”. I see no such thing because it is all contingent upon humans, and humans have no innate value as far as I can see. But when God declares some of value, well now that is what I call some serious love, especially since He has no requirement to make even this declaration.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

As I said, construe away. It seems to me clear from everything I read in Acts that the disciples in the main DID leave their wives, children, fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, and that this was expected of them…

Well, even if they did leave their families, a thing which is not evident to me, this is a far cry from hate in the sense of malevolence. It in fact seems like nonattachment.</p>

<p>

As to why you should “hate” your relatives (as opposed to simply leaving them or not serving them) in order to be a Christian disciple is probably a good subject for psychotherapy.

I think only if one finds oneself in need of a subject for psychotherapy. I think most would read the text and see nonattachment quite easily.</p>

<p>

At any rate, did he mean what he said? Was he just tired that day? Were the parables tailing off to the nonsensical? Is there a problem in the text? Had he just had a difficult time with a relative? Was he gay? Beats me. That’s what makes “construing” so much fun.

I think one must intentionally “construe” here. I do not think reason permits seeing anything other than nonattachment. But, that is how I see it, and I must be faithful to that. You obviously see some weird command for malevolence toward your family. Be faithful to that – or not. </p>

<p>

But no matter how you construe it, the admonition to hate your parents is a lot more direct and unambiguous than the non-existent condemnation of homosexuality. The latter text of Jesus talking can’t be construed, because it doesn’t exist.

Firstly, I think the admonition to hate is direct only if one is intentionally unreasonable, forcing meaning into the text that will not stand when the text is held in context. The meaning is quite plain to me. Secondly, Christ never spoke against bestiality either. It does not mean He supported it. Reason would have us look at such matters in context of history and of the other biblical texts. But that is only how I see it. I must be as faithful as I can to that, and allow you to be honest with yourself as you believe something else. When we cross over into the next world, then we will see how it all shakes out.</p>

[dstark]

<p>Drosselmeier, do you condemn homosexuality?</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>"I see no such thing because it is all contingent upon humans, and humans have no innate value as far as I can see. "</p>

<p>Drossel, I’m sorry to say this but I am really appalled to hear you say this. So if you see a child hit by a car, that child has no value? Your own children have no value? No one has value unless they are perfect? </p>

<p>Surely your children, your family have value to YOU, so I am assuming you mean that to God, they have no value unless they are ‘saved’ by being Christian.</p>

<p>Wow, it is this type of thinking that causes wars. The ‘enemies’ have no value and are therefore easy to kill. It is this type of thinking that promotes prejudice. Drossel, you and I have had some discussions about prejudice. Can you not see that to think that non-Christians have no value is a type of prejudice? It is no different from saying that Blacks, Jews, whatever…are lesser beings, for whatever reason. Even if you don’t think that, to think that GOD thinks like that, and we are supposed to strive to be like Jesus/God, then, we are supposed to be like that? Do you really think that God wants us to have LESS love and compassion than we have now?</p>

<p>I think the bottom line here is your disregard (or your apparent belief that God has a disregard) for Love. Without love, how can anyone be perfect? If God has so little regard for love, then why would we want to spend eternity with him?</p>

<p>The very things usually considered GOOD about humanity: Love, compassion, mercy…are completely missing from this view of God.</p>

<hr>

<p>This illustrates why I think the old testament is actually evil and is parading as good. It cannot possibly be from God.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Wow, there is no way I could believe that God is like that. First of all, it’s acknowledging that God got tricked by Satan. God had this perfect plan but Satan screwed it up. So that would mean God’s not very smart, since he got outsmarted by Satan and then had to scramble to come up with Plan B.

Or, I could mean that this whole thing is just a cosmic Soap Opera developed by God, for His own Divine Amusement. Whatever it is, I am too afraid to declare an unwillingness to bow humbly before it. As I have said. I could be, and like am, quite wrong on Who or What God is. I sense Him as far as He enables me, and am trying to walk as He instructs me. But when I look far ahead, little of it makes any sense. I can only see the very next step near me. And so, God help me, that is the step I am going to take. I have confidence in nothing – not me, not my understanding, not nothing – but His faithfulness to see me through. It is just all that I have in this place.</p>

<p>

Secondly, it would mean that all of humanity must pay for something that 2 people (Adam & Eve) did. So that would mean God’s not very fair. Thirdly, it would mean that God doesn’t love humanity enough to think of a better plan than the ‘Jesus saves’ plan since that plan depends on people being smart enough or lucky enough to choose the right religion…seems to me that God ought to be compassionate enough and smart enough to figure out some plan that might work for EVERYONE, even the foolish ones. Foolish people (the ones who don’t choose Jesus) don’t deserve to burn FOREVER, do they?? I don’t think they do, and surely God has more justice and more Love than I do!

I really don’t know what they deserve. But I know I deserve to burn. That is the thing that most concerns me. If I ever stand before a completely Holy God, there is just no way am I gonna think I have a right to live. We are talking the very definition of Perfection here – what the word itself means. </p>

<p>

The Free Will issue: I agree that God honors our free will. However, the whole system is tipped AWAY from us. It’s ridiculous, imo, that God would EXPECT people in other religions to become ‘Christians’ - say, for example, peaceful and loving Buddhists who see no need to change religions. I can’t imagine that God would sentence those people to ‘hell’ when they obviously are doing what they believe is good and right.

I can believe it quite easily. They have no value in and of themselves. So it matters not a whit what happens to them. That is as obvious to me as anything – as obvious as taking a breath. But, I could be wrong about it. I am following it because it declares itself in me.</p>

<p>

Surely God would understand that they are seeking him too? And the Native Americans, who refer to God as ‘Great Spirit’ - so if some missionary tells them they must be Christian, and they see no reason at all to change, why would God blame them for that?

They are worthless. It does not matter what spirit they refer to. Now, please understand that I am speaking from an entirely different perspective than that under which I typically operate. Typically, when I see a Native anyone, or a Shinto baby, or a Buddhist or gays, or straights, or whatever, I respect them all and hold none up beyond the other. At least I try not to. But, it is really like a football game. Nice to watch on some level, but in the large scheme of things, it is so amazingly worthless it ain’t even worth mentioning. This is what I am talking about. </p>

<p>

Why can Christians not consider the possibility that all of these people are in fact worshiping the SAME God, but just in different ways?

I don’t know about Christians. I only know that this question makes no sense to me because I don’t know a blooming thing about the God these people are worshipping. So there is just no way I can claim they worship the same God as I. I perceive the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and must stumble through my own futile senses to follow Him as far as I can see Him (which is probably not well at all). I don’t claim to be able to know perfectly. I only claim I am trying to trust Him. When I fellowship with Christians, it is really a fellowship of trust, what they call “Faith”. I sense God declaring Himself within me. By faith I float in that, like Noah and his family, trusting that it will save me when the deluge comes. That’s pretty much it.</p>

<p>

No disrespect intended, but the entire premise of the ‘only Christians are saved’ and ‘accept Jesus’ makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, whatever makes sense to you, perhaps that is what you should follow. I am only posting here because I want to say that I don’t think the beliefs that others are making fun of here are any weirder than the meaningless reality that I see all around me. The evangelicals have a source of meaning. I respect it.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Drosselmeier, do you condemn homosexuality?

Not in the least. But I do believe the God of the ancient Hebrews condemned it. I also think that condemnation was transferred from them into the Hebrews of the early Christian Church. On this basis, I cannot condemn Catholics and Protestants who declare homosexuality a sin.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“but His faithfulness to see me through. It is just all that I have in this place.”</p>

<p>Drossel, thanks for explaining your stance. The above quoted statement is one of only a few that of your statements that I can agree with.</p>

<p>Here is a question: If you have felt God’s faithfulness, which I trust you have, as I have, then have you not felt any LOVE from God? In my own experience, my spiritual breakthrus, those times in which I felt loved and supported and guided by God, I felt an awe and a JOY and a strength in knowing that I was not alone. Just this little glimpse was enough to convince me that no way in hell would God sentence ANYONE to burn forever. (for awhile, maybe, to teach them something, but even then it’s not a punishment, but a school of hard knocks. We’re already in hell, imo.)</p>

<p>I’m just puzzled as to how you could be perceiving God to be so ruthless and cold and cruel. Again, no disrespect intended, but you DID make some pretty strong statements, and I am trying to understand you.</p>

[dstark]

<p>Drosselmeier, as a Jew, let me tell you a little secret.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the stories, we made that stuff up.</p>

<p>When you look at the really big picture, we don’t have much value, and that includes believers and non-believers. If you look at the very small picture, we have a very large value. If my kid was hit by a car and died, that little picture would overwhelm any big picture that I would ever consider.</p>

<p>“Not in the least. But I do believe the ancient Hebrews condemned it. I also think that condemnation was transferred from them into the Hebrews of the early Christian Church. On this basis, I cannot condemn Catholics and Protestants who declare homosexuality a sin.”</p>

<p>This argument is ridiculous. So if my forefathers were racist pigs, you wouldn’t condemn me for being a racist pig?</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Drossel, I’m sorry to say this but I am really appalled to hear you say this. So if you see a child hit by a car, that child has no value? Your own children have no value? No one has value unless they are perfect?

I may ascribe value to them, but that value only comes from me, at best from some other human. What if all humans were to perish from a nuclear war? Would there then exist some cosmic immorality because of it? Not at all! We would all simply be dead. I see no meaning here. But if as a result of our perishing there is some even greater authority than us making a declaration about it, then there is meaning. This is not very complicated here. At least I don’t think so.</p>

<p>

Surely your children, your family have value to YOU, so I am assuming you mean that to God, they have no value unless they are ‘saved’ by being Christian.

I am saying that without a God, I see no meaning in anything at all. We are all on this planet alone, and if I have the ability to get away with pulling the plug on the entire earth, and I should do it, then it does not matter at all – not at all.</p>

<p>

Wow, it is this type of thinking that causes wars. The ‘enemies’ have no value and are therefore easy to kill.

Not just the “enemies”. I have no value either. Where is it?</p>

<p>

It is this type of thinking that promotes prejudice. Drossel, you and I have had some discussions about prejudice. Can you not see that to think that non-Christians have no value is a type of prejudice?

I don’t think there is value in anything, no matter who we are talking about – except inasmuch as a God declares the value. That is why I say I am just trusting Him to do that for me. I can’t condemn a soul when I myself have nothing at all apart from God. If you find value somewhere, my goodness, I say hold on to it. I can find no value except in God. So I am trying my best to hold to it.</p>

<p>

It is no different from saying that Blacks, Jews, whatever…are lesser beings, for whatever reason. Even if you don’t think that, to think that GOD thinks like that, and we are supposed to strive to be like Jesus/God, then, we are supposed to be like that? Do you really think that God wants us to have LESS love and compassion than we have now?

Not at all. I think He is the meaning of love, and that without Him, love does not exist. There is just no innate value such as love hovering in the universe without God – as far as I can see.</p>

<p>

I think the bottom line here is your disregard (or your apparent belief that God has a disregard) for Love. Without love, how can anyone be perfect? If God has so little regard for love, then why would we want to spend eternity with him?

As far as I can see it, God and only God, is love. All things flow from there. I want to spend an eternity with Him because otherwise, I am worth no more than a handful of dust.</p>

<p>

The very things usually considered GOOD about humanity: Love, compassion, mercy…are completely missing from this view of God.

I know what you are saying. But I am actually dealing with something else here. Where I am coming from, there is nothing “good” about humanity at all because “goodness” has no meaning apart from God. God sets the standard for goodness, not us. And that standard feels to me as far out of man’s reach as it is out of the reach of a brick.</p>

<p>

This illustrates why I think the old testament is actually evil and is parading as good. It cannot possibly be from God.

Oh, I think it is quite frighteningly consistent with the reality of the universe as far as I can see. Just look around you. Children are getting utterly slaughtered, dying of cancer and all sorts of horrid diseases. There is starvation, death and destruction everywhere – and it is growing. I would not be a bit surprised to see it grow to such an extent that it overtakes large segments of humanity. This is happening right now. That is how much innate value humans have in nature. We just do not matter. Nothing does.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Here is a question: If you have felt God’s faithfulness, which I trust you have, as I have, then have you not felt any LOVE from God?

Well, I sense love only inasmuch as I sense Him declaring within me that I might trust Him to save me from what I deserve. Other than that, I don’t get a whole lot of warm feelings. But that is more than enough, I’ll tell you that.</p>

<p>

In my own experience, my spiritual breakthrus, those times in which I felt loved and supported and guided by God, I felt an awe and a JOY and a strength in knowing that I was not alone. Just this little glimpse was enough to convince me that no way in hell would God sentence ANYONE to burn forever. (for awhile, maybe, to teach them something, but even then it’s not a punishment, but a school of hard knocks. We’re already in hell, imo.)

The universe is a very cold place. Children are dying the most horrid deaths all the time. Something hellish is going on and I sense it is going to keep going on until the most astounding darkness overtakes everything. I sense this, and am trusting God to deliver me from it. I don’t see a whole lot of warm fuzzy stuff here, and the evidence seems pretty clear when we look at all the suffering already before us.</p>

<p>

I’m just puzzled as to how you could be perceiving God to be so ruthless and cold and cruel.

I don’t perceive Him as ruthless. I sense, I guess, that from His perspective the whole universe is condemned and worthless. I am trying to reconcile Him with what I already see. I see we are already dead and that we really do not have value in and of ourselves. That seems pretty clear to me. So, I am trusting and hoping in Him, that He has done me the wonder of ascribing value to me.</p>

<p>

Again, no disrespect intended, but you DID make some pretty strong statements, and I am trying to understand you.

Yes. I am not offended at all. And I hope I am not offending you.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“What if all humans were to perish from a nuclear war? Would there then exist some cosmic immorality because of it? Not at all! We would all simply be dead. I see no meaning here.”</p>

<p>Don’t you believe in a soul? In such an event, the soul would live on. Only the bodies would be dead. </p>

<p>“I am saying that without a God, I see no meaning in anything at all.”</p>

<p>I was not disputing the existence of God. I most definitely believe in God and that God gives life meaning. I am, however, disputing the bible’s definition of God.</p>

<p>“If you find value somewhere, my goodness, I say hold on to it. I can find no value except in God.”</p>

<p>But…God is everywhere! There is beauty, life, wonder, all around us! It ALL came from God! I see God in everyone, in everything! Of course God gives us value, but it is an inherent value! </p>

<p>Many spiritual traditions see God in all of life…Paganism sees God reflected in nature…Buddhism has stories about spiritual beings who would not even step on a bug…so too with the Christian ‘saint’ Francis of Assisi…and even in your bible does it not say that God takes care of the lilies and the birds? Why would God bother if there were not some inherent value? Why would God bother with finding lost sheep (and that means EVERYONE, eventually, imo, not just the ‘Christian’ sheep) if they did not have value?</p>

<p>How can you feel any value for your child if that very feeling of value didn’t come from God?</p>

<p>“I think He is the meaning of love, and that without Him, love does not exist. There is just no innate value such as love hovering in the universe without God – as far as I can see.”</p>

<p>Well, if he is the meaning of love, then how could he condemn the majority of his creation to eternal suffering? I, a mere human, could not even do that! Surely God has more love and mercy than I do!</p>

<p>And how could ANYTHING in the universe even exist without God?</p>

<p>In my belief, the universe itself is God’s body! We are all a tiny teeny part of God! There is no place in the universe that is separate from God! We only THINK we are separate, and that is what causes us pain. But God is always there.</p>

<p>“there is nothing “good” about humanity at all because “goodness” has no meaning apart from God. God sets the standard for goodness, not us.”</p>

<p>I think the issue here is that I believe it is God who animate everything and everyone, whereas the Christian belief sees God separate from his creation. But did not Jesus say that the temple of God is within? I do not understand this separation.</p>

<p>“This is happening right now. That is how much innate value humans have in nature. We just do not matter. Nothing does.”</p>

<p>I have thought as you do, at times. There have been times in my life in which I felt all alone and actually quite angry at God for allowing so much suffering. I believe in karma, but I was still angry at God. So I do understand, sort of. I felt that way when I was depressed. Are you depressed? When I felt happier, I no longer felt that way. I hope you feel happier soon!</p>

<p>“And I hope I am not offending you.”</p>

<p>Not at all. And I hope I’m not being too nosy asking if you might be feeling depressed. Honestly, I do understand how you feel about the suffering because I have felt the same way, at least in the sense of feeling despair. And ya know what? I am telling God about my feelings. Very indignantly! Whichever angels he put in charge of this planet really screwed up! I know there are better planets elsewhere…but earth is a real piece of work. A lot of healing is needed here and he better get it together soon! (Actually I think there is a polarizing going on, and we’re seeing an intensifying of good and evil as we near the end of an astrological cycle…I think something’s gotta give sometime soon…just my opinion based on my own (unprovable) beliefs of course…)</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Drosselmeier, as a Jew, let me tell you a little secret.
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the stories, we made that stuff up.

Okay. Thanks for the heads up. It sure does reflect the reality of suffering and death that I see around us.</p>

<p>

When you look at the really big picture, we don’t have much value, and that includes believers and non-believers. If you look at the very small picture, we have a very large value. If my kid was hit by a car and died, that little picture would overwhelm any big picture that I would ever consider.

You say we don’t have much value. I am glad you see some value because I see none at all. And the little picture doesn’t exactly seem terribly authoritative, since it only depends upon you. Were you not to exist, then how significant is the little picture where your daughter’s injury and/or death are concerned? Really now. We can literally hear of millions of people being slaughtered at a time, and yet do nothing at all. We pass by a car accident wherein people have died, and the meaning is almost non-existent. Value, even here at the little place, is a phantom. </p>

<p>

This argument is ridiculous. So if my forefathers were racist pigs, you wouldn’t condemn me for being a racist pig?

I made no argument. I am stating a fact. I can’t condemn these people for following what they know God commands them. And there is a structure in nature to which these people appeal and a vast history based upon that structure that I must respect. I am very much torn on this issue. But I cannot take it upon myself to condemn them because I do understand where they are coming from – at least I try to. It is not like mere racism, since race literally does not exist in nature. There is something FAR more fundamental here than race.</p>

[rvmothership]

<p>WOW ! I honestly did not intend to open up a forum that turned into an intense back and forth aguement about other beliefs / disbeliefs / bible quotes etc… I really wanted to hear from people that may have been, are a part of or has a child involved in Campus Crusades in a college.</p>

[dstark]

<p>“There is something FAR more fundamental here than race.”</p>

<p>No there isn’t. </p>

<p>If you were one of the people condemned by “God” you would feel differently.</p>

<p>You need to rethink this.</p>

<p>Or you don’t. </p>

<p>There are two values I see here. (Maybe there are more, but I am in a rush. :))</p>

<p>The value of human beings in the universe. Almost zero. If we were wiped out, it wouldn’t matter. (I think we agree here). </p>

<p>The value of human beings to other human beings. There is a large spectrum of value here. Well, some relationships, like parent/child, the value is too large to be measured. To me, relationships like the parent/child give us value.</p>

<p>So it just depends on how you want to measure value.</p>

[Hanna]

<p>“from His perspective the whole universe is condemned and worthless.”</p>

<p>Why create it then? Why would a perfect being put together a big load of worthless crap?</p>

<p>The one thing I feel that I can be sure about is that suffering matters, and that the alleviation of suffering is good. Even if there is no God, I still want to live my life in a way that does not cause pain, and if there is a God, surely He wants me to treat His creations with kindness. We are dust, but a mother’s grief for her murdered child is not.</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>Hanna, so nice to find something we can agree on!</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Don’t you believe in a soul? In such an event, the soul would live on. Only the bodies would be dead.

Well, I do believe in a soul, but even it has no value as far as I can fathom. If it be cast into the darkness for eternity, I just can’t see the innate injustice of it.</p>

<p>

I was not disputing the existence of God. I most definitely believe in God and that God gives life meaning. I am, however, disputing the bible’s definition of God.

I see. Well. You really need not dispute this with me. I think it reflects the general reality I see quite astonishingly, far better than a God who is all mushy and touchy feely about this place. The Bible claims the place is condemned and that is quite what I see.</p>

<p>

But…God is everywhere! There is beauty, life, wonder, all around us! It ALL came from God! I see God in everyone, in everything! Of course God gives us value, but it is an inherent value!

Okay. I really don’t wish to argue about this. I have given my view of it. I hope you understand it. I understand that you see meaning here, and I say good on you for it. </p>

<p>

Many spiritual traditions see God in all of life…Paganism sees God reflected in nature…Buddhism has stories about spiritual beings who would not even step on a bug…so too with the Christian ‘saint’ Francis of Assisi…and even in your bible does it not say that God takes care of the lilies and the birds?

Of course as God ascribes value to the things for which He cares, those things acquire value. The lilies exist, the rain upon the flowers comes down to serve His purpose, and it is through that purpose that I see meaning. No where else. But this is just as far as I can honestly see it. I really could be misguided here. I’m just trusting that God will cut through my weaknesses and keep testifying the truth.</p>

<p>

Why would God bother if there were not some inherent value? Why would God bother with finding lost sheep (and that means EVERYONE, eventually, imo, not just the ‘Christian’ sheep) if they did not have value?

As far as I can tell, they have no value until He ascribes value to them. He does not save them because they are of value. He gives them value, thereby saving them.</p>

<p>

How can you feel any value for your child if that very feeling of value didn’t come from God?

Why do we hold anything in esteem?</p>

<p>

Well, if he is the meaning of love, then how could he condemn the majority of his creation to eternal suffering? I, a mere human, could not even do that! Surely God has more love and mercy than I do!

I guess I can say it like this: the state of the universe is naturally one of condemnation. The people you see walking the street are all dead men. They are all of them already cursed with death. Isn’t it true? Of course it is. It is surer than the rising sun (because of the sun fails to rise, then death is made even surer). That is the existing state of things. I am counting on a God that will have mercy and deliver me from this death.</p>

<p>

And how could ANYTHING in the universe even exist without God? In my belief, the universe itself is God’s body! We are all a tiny teeny part of God! There is no place in the universe that is separate from God! We only THINK we are separate, and that is what causes us pain. But God is always there.

Well then maybe this is true. I have nothing on this that could allow me to confirm or deny it. Not to be irreverent, but if your view is true, then I sense a massive defecation building up in this cosmic body of yours, and I suspect the universe is gonna be the discarded produce of it.</p>

<p>

I think the issue here is that I believe it is God who animate everything and everyone, whereas the Christian belief sees God separate from his creation. But did not Jesus say that the temple of God is within? I do not understand this separation.

I don’t think Christians believe God is separate. I think they believe He is boundless and in and through all things. I think they also think reality is a lot weirder than a lot of us are willing to accept. I mean, I don’t personally know how it is. But I think it is probably some really weird mess. Yeah, I also sense a God who is boundless, but I also sense a God who is as capable of cleaning house as I am capable of ridding myself of a thought. I want to be clear here that I don’t claim to know any of this. I just think it is possible based on the little I somehow do know.</p>

<p>

I have thought as you do, at times. There have been times in my life in which I felt all alone and actually quite angry at God for allowing so much suffering. I believe in karma, but I was still angry at God. So I do understand, sort of. I felt that way when I was depressed. Are you depressed? When I felt happier, I no longer felt that way. I hope you feel happier soon!

Not depressed at all! I just don’t see meaning apart from God. But in Him, I sense quite a vast reason for all things. I find a lot of comfort in that.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

If you were one of the people condemned by “God” you would feel differently.

Well, I am not sure I would. I find it hard to personally “condemn” gays when here I am just as certifiably impure, compared with my idea of God, as they are allegedly. As far as I am concerned personally, I have no axe to grind, no fear of gays, and nothing to defend against. But even were I gay I think I would be compelled to understand how and why the Christian Church is obligated to take the view it takes on homosexuality. It is a fundamentally different matter from race. That much is quite evident to me.</p>

<p>

You need to rethink this.

Undoubtedly. I am just trying to be fair and honest as I deal with this. It is no fun to me to think of having to discriminate against anyone when I know what real discrimination is. But I can’t allow my emotional connection to discrimination to rule here. I need to look at the thing as closely as I can, and for what it is. I am led, so far, to the conviction that we are dealing with something RADICALLY different from mere racial discrimination. Sadly, gays would read this and ache because I am taking the luxury of being all dispassionate about something that hits them where they live. I know exactly what they feel, and I am shuddering about it. On this issue, I don’t think I am ready to have convictions beyond what I have stated so far. </p>

<p>

There are two values I see here. (Maybe there are more, but I am in a rush. ) The value of human beings in the universe. Almost zero. If we were wiped out, it wouldn’t matter. (I think we agree here).

Not almost zero – absolutely zero. If it wouldn’t matter, it don’t matter. </p>

<p>

The value of human beings to other human beings. There is a large spectrum of value here. Well, some relationships, like parent/child, the value is too large to be measured. To me, relationships like the parent/child give us value.

Since this value is contingent upon humanity, which we already agree does not matter in the largest scheme, it is ultimately without value. Even if we refuse to accept one frame of reference beyond another, the fact is, value here is not objective. My daughter means more to me than she does to you. Lets face it. She means nothing to you at all.</p>

<p>Hey. It has really been a pleasure to talk about such a weird topic. What a crazy thread.</p>