<p>Interestingly, one of my friend’s sons has a high school unweighted GPA of around 3.5 and weighted GPA of around 4.0. His new SATs aren’t spectacular at about 1900 and wants to attend Yale or Brown as an English Major. HOWEVER, he has published several op ed pieces in his local newspaper and has published his first fiction book that is on track to be a best seller. He may even get a movie deal for his book. Thus, he won’t need financial aid.He did have top English grades in high school.</p>
<p>I know someone else who submitted a screen play that was used in one of the TV shows, which gets her royalties? Her SATs were mediocre. How about her chances at top schools for English?She also had top English grades in high school</p>
<p>Assuming either kid wouldn’t get into a top undergrad school,If they were to apply to grad school with these credentials,but GPA of say 3.3 in college, would they get into a top grad school?</p>
<p>Another kid I know was homeschooled with great home school grades. Her SATs were mediocre. However, she was a world champion swimmer and has gone pro. In fact, she has participated in the olympics and will probably go again. She won’t be able to participate in college sports because she is a pro. What are her chances at top schools?</p>
<p>My final example is a kid that attends Towson University. His grades are very mediocre at a 3.2 GPA. HOWEVER, he has presented papers to national academies, co-authored papers for national publication, is on staff at the National Insitute of Standards ( a paid position) to work on equipment and to advise them.He also has participated and scored highly in national robotics competitions. Finally, if this isn’t enough, he has had two small federal research grants in his name!If he were to apply to MIT or CMU for computer training in grad school, would he get admitted despite mediocre GPA?</p>
<p>I was wondering about this.</p>
<p>Do kids like this have any real chance to be accepted at schools like Yale, MIT, Brown etc? How about kids that have invented things and have patents but mediocre SATs, can they get into top schools? Does anyone have any information or experience in this area?</p>
<p>Taxguy, I think you’ll find celebrities and very angular kids at many very competitive schools. The key is that the overall balance between unusual talent or genius and mediocre “scores” needs to be positive and in the ballpark. One yardstick, for instance, is the AI used at Ivy League schools.</p>
<p>I would also remind that Ivies are not the only schools where you can major in English.
Kenyon- Reed-Uchicago-Oberlin-Ann Arbor-Madison many very fine schools that should still be in the running</p>
<p>My take: the power of wonderful extracurriculars or special talents has a lot to do with supply and demand at each particular school. If it’s not a talent or extracurricular a particular school wants or needs for its next freshman class, it alone will not get you in if the rest of the package isn’t there. By the same token, if its a talent or extracurricular that is not particularly unique or rare in the school’s applicant pool, it alone won’t get you in if the rest of the package isn’t there. </p>
<p>That’s why so many kids with seemingly fantastic humanities-oriented talents or EC’s (theater, music, art) get rejected from Yale every year: Yale, by the nature of its strengths and reputation, attracts more applicants with those types of talents and EC’s. Those same kids applying to a science-heavy applicant pool at a school like Johns Hopkins, however, may find that the same EC’s and talents do give them a boost.</p>
<p>But, in the end, all colleges and universities look first at academic preparation and performance. If you’re way behind on those, the EC or talent is going to have to be something the school wants very badly to in and of itself pull you to the top of the pile. However, if you’re just borderline on grades or test scores, a unique talent or EC may pull you up and over in some cases, depending again on supply and demand.</p>
<p>One caveat: don’t forget that the application file contains mainly elements and it can be hard, if not impossible, for outsiders to see the full picture. We don’t know a student’s recommendations, we can’t read their essays, GPA alone doesn’t tell us much about the rigor of the applicant’s high school curriculum. And, we also can only guess at the college’s particular admissions goals and the special talents and EC achievements of the applicant pool each year, or even how applicant talents and EC’s are broken down by geography ( a school may opt not to take BOTH applicants from Maryland who are published writers for instance). So, be careful of pointing to any one factor and saying “well, of course, that’s why so and so got in!” or “of course he/she will get in!” because there might be other factors as well that we don’t see and can’t predict.</p>
<p>“Interestingly, one of my friend’s sons has a high school unweighted GPA of around 3.5 and weighted GPA of around 4.0. His new SATs aren’t spectacular at about 1900 and wants to attend Yale or Brown as an English Major. HOWEVER, he has published several op ed pieces in his local newspaper and has published his first fiction book that is on track to be a best seller. He may even get a movie deal for his book. Thus, he won’t need financial aid.He did have top English grades in high school.”</p>
<p>The world class outstanding EC above is the fact that he has published a fiction book. If the book was NOT published by a vanity press, that would be a spectacular EC, the type of EC that could get him into a place like HPYS and that could overcome his lackluster scores (by their standards) and gpa.</p>
<p>What you described is a rare example of a truly outstanding EC. The op-ed pieces would not meet that criteria unless the student had managed to publish op-ed pieces in The Washington Post or NY Times, not, for instance, the local Rockville paper as many students across the country manage similar feats at local small papers.</p>
<p>His not needing financial aid is of no importance to the Ivies, all of which have need-blind admissions.</p>
<p>Actually, I wasn’t just asking about Yale or even only other Ivy schools. My question also applies to top LACs like Bowdown, Bates, Reed, Claremont schools, Williams etc. as well has schools such as Johns Hopkins, UCLA, Virginia etc.</p>
<p>Also Xiggi notes, “One yardstick, for instance, is the AI used at Ivy League schools.”</p>
<p>Xiggi, what does this mean? Do you know what the AI using precise examples?</p>
<p>Northstarmom, the kid who published a best selling work was published by a major publisher and not Vanity Press or other self publisher.</p>
<p>I am also interested as to whether these tremendously unique ECs would work for grad school admission? No one has addressed this.</p>
<p>Of course such things would enormously help with grad school admissions assuming that a person’s achievements were in a field related to the graduate program. Consequently, the best selling fiction book achievement is likely to help a person get into a graduate program in English, journalism or possibly the humanities and perhaps even law school (because strong writing skills are important for lawyers), but I doubt it would help a person get into medical school with mediocre scores and a mediocre gpa.</p>
<p>Such achievements would help a person’s admissions chances at virtually any college except for some rare places that are extremely stats bound or have programs in subjects unrelated to the student’s ECs.</p>
<p>For instance, having a best seller fiction book would not likely boost a student with mediocre grades and scores into a place like Cooper Union, which only has engineering, architecture and art programs (I think those are the 3 programs it offers). </p>
<p>If you Google "AI " and “Ivy League,” think that you can find info about it as it has been described in books and news articles.</p>
<p>Taxguy, you may want to google “AI Index” to find precise examples. I believe that the minimum AI is 171 or 172. Now, I am not positive if this figure includes the acceptable variances or not. It is pretty easy to find online AI calculators … there is one on Michelle Hernandez site.</p>
<p>For graduate school in the sciences and engineering, research experience and publications often far outweigh things like GRE and GPA, so long as those numbers aren’t abysmal.</p>
<p>In a grade-deflated field like computer science, moreover, a 3.2 may not be all that far from the average applicant’s GPA. It probably depends whether he would be applying for a masters or a PhD program – PhD programs are usually more difficult to get into.</p>
<p>There are so many pieces to the puzzle of success…some can be very surprising.</p>
<p>This isn’t exactly what you’re asking, but I think it’s interesting nonethess, at least from the point of view of “you never know what one or two particular decision makers are going to look at.”</p>
<p>My son graduated with two math-related BS degrees and another math-related MS from Stanford. He did this in five years and all at Stanford, taking masters-level courses as a sophomore and beginning Ph.D.-level courses as a junior. His gpa in those classes was near 4.0. But his gpa in the GUR’s–the courses he felt he was forced to take and that “didn’t matter” to him was closer to 3.0. His rationale was these classes weren’t in his field, he didn’t care about them, so a B- would suffice. As a result, his overall gpa wasn’t spectacular. But he figured where he’d be applying for jobs, they wouldn’t care what he got in his freshman humanities core, they’d be impressed with his A in the unpronouncable Stochastic Something or Other 400-level course he took in his 3rd year. </p>
<p>Well, he was wrong. But not because anyone really cared about how much he learned or didn’t learn about Women in 18th Century Literature. Nobody in the financial field where he was interviewing cared about that. What his future employer cared about – and they did explain this to him after he finally got hired – was that this pattern showed a tendency toward walking away from things that didn’t interest him, and employers know that not everything every employee will be asked to do will be interesting. Their concern was that he would lose interest in the job in a relatively short time and move on. And they were right. Compared to what he was doing at Stanford, what he is doing at work is tedious and uninteresting. Will he walk? I don’t know. He’s not pleased, but he’s not miserable either. What this shows is that our academic history, when read by astude eyes, can tell a lot more about us than we could ever anticipate. :)</p>
Bingo. This insight is exactly why I struggle with what to tell kids on the MIT forum where I hang out sometimes, when they insist, “I have great math/science grades, surely MIT won’t care about my English/Spanish/History grades being notably lower, since those aren’t things I want to study.” It strikes me that you can show a much more positive side to your character if you decide to work at the courses you don’t care for so much. An applicant doesn’t have to be stellar in subjects that aren’t directly related to their interests, but letting them slide can look like a “walking away” tendency. </p>
<p>(Right, 1down, this doesn’t really address the question of extra-curriculars, sorry taxguy!)</p>
<p>well since you mentioned Reed
I admit that it is getting much more selective- for what ever reason- perhaps that students who in the past would have Stanford Berkeley or Brown as their first choice- are more interested, but my daughter had a B-ish GPA ( 3.3) and her SAT scores while good- weren’t even as high as a friend who took the SAT in 6th gd. ( her SAT ll scores especially in writing were higher however- and she turns out a very nice essay)
She also had interesting ECs
first generation
volunteer since 7th gd
no sports to speak of
theater/art/vocal but only one related scholarship
but I think it must have been her essays- possibly her research report and probably her recommendations which were very strong and probably very specific.</p>
<p>Grad school admissions tends to be about LORs, not GPAs. A long time ago, I had a classmate who was a genius but only worked when he felt like it. His GPA was well below 3.0. He got into one of the top grad schools in his field, based on articles he had co-written and a LOR that said, in brief, he’s a flake but a genius. </p>
<p>If there is a prof at Towson State who is highly regarded who says that despite the gpa the kid’s a genius, he may well get into a top grad program. But if he can’t get a LOR from a prof whose opinion is known and valued, a 3.2 will probably kill his chances. </p>
<p>Who is writing the LOR REALLY matters. It’s really not about having a “huge” name. It’s more about having a KNOWN name. Someone the general public has never heard of, but who is on the board of editors of several journals, is active in professional organizations, attends conferences in his field, etc. can write a LOR that MATTERS more than a LOR from a prof who does none of those things. When “stats” are weak, it’s all about who will “vouch” for you. From what I’ve heard, there are a lot of “off the record” type conversations.
“Can this guy/gal make it through and get a Ph.D?” is the bottom line question. A YES helps, but who is saying YES matters just as much. A YES from someone half the department knows through organizations and committee work for them, conferences, etc. will mean more than a YES from someone nobody knows personally.</p>
<p>Molliebatmit is correct. It’s a LOT easier to get into master’s degree programs–which often cost $$$ at top schools–than into Ph.D. programs–which rarely cost money in math/science at top schools.</p>
<p>Spectacular EC’s definitely CAN make the difference if the student has “enough” of the rest of the stuff (grades, perseverence, etc). My D was accepted ED1 to Vassar. I didn’t think she would get in - it’s highly competitive - because her grades and scores weren’t outstanding. She’s in the top 10 in a small HS class of 90 kids; ACT was 28/29, she didn’t submit SAT or SAT II scores.<br>
What she DID have:</p>
<p>(whoops didn’t finish that message…)
What she DID have:
-All-state musician
-Very significant dance credentials - dances two to three hours a day, six days a week, accepted to major highly selective summer programs, met with the Vassar dance prof and took a class to prove her abilities</p>
<p>Also took the hardest classes the school had to offer, took AP calculus (even though she only got an 80), took all available AP classes (but didn’t submit her AP grades, which were mostly 3’s). Great recommendations from teachers that loved her, loved her work ethic. A charming, quirky personal essay.</p>
<p>Conclusion? In a generally well-rounded student who is very good but not phenomenal academically, absolutely top-notch EC’s that show both ability and very significant commitment can lead to acceptance to highly competitive schools. (And I’m so proud of her…)</p>