<p>or this drink recipe;)
*How to Make a Caitlin Flanagan
Take:</p>
<p>One jigger of Anita Bryant
One jigger of Jane Russell
One jigger of Ann Coulter
A dash of pretentious language (for faux sophistication and New Yorker credentials)
One quart of self-entitlement
An expendable income</p>
<p>This is how my French/Italian family was raised and how my kids were raised – wine with pasta, champagne toasts, a cold beer on a hot day, etc. Alcohol is no big deal for my kids. They also tell me everything (some things I’d rather not hear but I keep a “poker face” so they know that they can always come to me with anything.)</p>
<p>I don’t expect the universities to be the “sole guardians” out there, but I also don’t expect them to be “enablers” (which is what some of them have directly or indirectly have become) in regards to excessive alcohol consumption, all-nite partying, and risky, very casual sexual encounters.</p>
<p>I remember reading somewhere that it only takes 15 monthes for a young adult (under 21) to become an alcoholic, but it takes many years for an adult to become one. I don’t remember the reason, perhaps it has something to do with the brain’s development at the time or the fact that teens tend to binge drink when given the opportunity to drink. If what I read is true, then it would be very beneficial for the culture to adopt a better policy towards alcohol which doesn’t encourage binge drinking in teens. Maybe the laws reflecting “home drinking” should be changed to reflect the more southern European culture that supports the idea that families can give their kids a glass of wine with dinner, etc.</p>
<p>The plural of anecdote is not evidence. I know of no studies in the U.S. (and I read them ALL - it’s part of my professional work) that suggest that early “at-home” drinking encouraged by parents results either in lower rates of binge drinking among adolescents or early adults, or lower rates of alcoholism among adults. I know of scores of studies which show an association between abstinence among parents and among their children (and, yes, I can name dozens of anecdotes that go the other way.) And I know of hundreds of studies on generational drinking. </p>
<p>Drinking is most closely associated with drinking - among teens, among adults, on college campuses, within nations. Best way to learn not to drink is to be around people who don’t. Probably the second best way is to be around fewer people who do.</p>
<p>I don’t think anyone is suggesting that parents should encourage their children to drink. But there is a difference between saying “have a beer” and believing that giving a child a sip of wine may diminish the “forbidden fruit” quality that attracts so many teens to alcohol.</p>
<p>Might be true - but I don’t see any evidence for it - and I’ve looked hard. Researchers have repeatedly tested this hypothesis, and they haven’t been able to lend any credence to it (in the U.S.)</p>
<p>Teens like to drink because they see other teens, espcially those a little bit older than themselves (and adults) drinking, and having a good time doing so, and seeing media where people have a good time doing so, and because it is easily available to them. Kids don’t steal forbidden fruit in houses where the fruit doesn’t exist. </p>
<p>I’m NOT suggesting that everyone become a teetotaller. But put kids in high-alcohol environments, whether in high school or in college, and they are more likely to drink, and it won’t have anything to do with “forbidden fruit”.</p>
<p>We seem to have the impression that Europeans have some sort of immunity to alcoholism. The myth is that the open, permissive attitudes towards alcohol are somehow protective and because alcohol is not forbidden fruit, it somehow loses its power. Alcohol production and exports are a major economic factor in many European countries and those business interests help foster the myth.</p>
<p>Attitudes towards alcohol maybe somewhat protective, but that theory is probably mainly a myth. As Mini stated, alcoholism arises from drinking. If we are around people who drink, we are more likely to drink and some of us will develop serious drinking dependency and problems. The odds are much worse when the drinking starts at an early age.</p>
<p>I didn’t claim that the members of EU or Europe has some kind of immunity – certainly England does not. The southern Europeans seem to have a lower incident of alcoholism than the US. I didn’t see on that website a stat about alcoholism. I did notice there is a number of deaths related to alcohol but that number is largely based on alcohol related driving accidents – (meaning that the number of deaths includes some alcoholics, some non alcoholics that drank too much that day, non drinking passengers, people in other cars and pedestrians on the street.) Those numbers cannot be used to suggest that all those deaths were deaths of alcoholics. </p>
<p>I question the suggestion that if “we are around people who drink” …we are more likely to develop drinking problems. If children see a proper model of alcohol consumption while growing up then they will more likely follow that pattern. It is so important to teach young kids “all in moderation.” Also, if alcohol is not some kind of “forbidden thing” then it loses much of its alure. </p>
<p>I do agree with the fact that if impressionable young people are around a bunch of college kids who drink too much, then they are more likely to drink too much also. That is why some parents tell their kids that, to eat prior to or during such a situation and drink slowly so that they aren’t “matching” their pals drink for drink. And there should be no embarrassment with ordering a bottled water or whatever after one has reached his limit or must be the designated driver.</p>
<p>mini write: <<< Might be true - but I don’t see any evidence for it - and I’ve looked hard. >>></p>
<p>You’re probably not going to find any studies about whether limited at-home drinking by minors reduce incidents of alcoholism because such a study involves admitting illegal behavior. </p>
<p>Parents aren’t going to put themselves at risk for arrests for “child abuse” by providing stats about how they allowed their minor children to “have a glass of wine with dinner” at home. For that reason, this subject will probably remain anecdotal.</p>
<p>All I know is that my French & Italian parents allowed us to have wine with pasta, etc and our relatives allowed the same and there is no alcoholism ANYWHERE in my family, my extended family or my grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins… no alcoholism anywhere. We are all a one or two drink big family. We all come from big families and when we went to college, we just had a beer or a mixed drink while everyone else was getting plastered. (Yes, we were usually the designated drivers and our moms occasionally had to help us clean up our friends’ barf in the back seats. GAG!! :< )</p>
<p>I don’t know. It seems to me that there is a mentality out there that if kids are held to any kind of standards at all, that they will rebel, break loose and do the opposite. Maybe that happens in some family dynamics. More often, though, it seems that parents are afraid of setting limits for kids - that they ARE afraid of their own kids. The kids dictate the rules and the parents are the submissive ones. </p>
<p>Nothing changes when they leave for college. Of course some kids will break loose and party hard when they get that first taste of real freedom. But my biggest concern is for those kids who never had any boundaries or limits set by parents whose main concern is for their kid’s popularity in HS. It’s the same exact thing that happens when a much younger child is allowed to dominate the household with his or her demands( think Super Nanny!) </p>
<p>The kids are, in reality, insecure if they are allowed to actually have that much control. The out of control party scene on campuses that we are seeing right now is a direct reflection of all of this, IMO. The proof is right there in front of us. Yes, partying always went on, and some of this is nothing new. But the scope of it is, I think, far worse.</p>
<p>The only thing that’s changed since we were in college (20 plus years ago) is that we are now the parents. Let’s see, we’re worrying about sexual promiscuity, unprotected sex/pregnancy/STDs, drugs, and alcohol. Are any of these issues new to the current generation of college students? We are squabbling about differences in child-rearing, but there is no predetermined formula to guarantee the behavior of any particular child.</p>
<p>“You’re probably not going to find any studies about whether limited at-home drinking by minors reduce incidents of alcoholism because such a study involves admitting illegal behavior.”</p>
<p>Oh, you know that’s false. Survey data, backed by experimental data, do that all the time. We have excellent data on teen drinking, teen drugging, drunk driving, prescription drug sharing, illicit pill popping, etc. Anonymous health surveys gather this kind of information all the time. And believe me, researchers have wanted to find the effect you describe (it would sure make life easier!) So they’ve tried again and again.</p>
<p>Parents are quite willing to share information about their illicit drug use, extramarital affars, drinking, tax cheating. You really think they won’t about giving a sip (just a few sips) to their teenagers in order to protect them against future alcohol abuse? </p>
<p>“All I know is that my French & Italian parents allowed us to have wine with pasta, etc and our relatives allowed the same and there is no alcoholism ANYWHERE in my family, my extended family or my grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins… no alcoholism anywhere.”</p>
<p>As I’ve written elsewhere, exactly the same in my family. It’s a function of good genes. That’s all; not particularly difficult to understand. Take the same behavior in a family with genetic markers for alcoholism, and the parents have started the kids down a long road early.</p>
<p>Mini I think you place too much emphasis on genetic factors and college drinking behavior. Too much of the variance associated with alcoholism, not to mention excessive college-aged drinking, is not explained by inheritability. Behavior can be changed and environmental contingencies are important. Since it is unlikely that college kids will be on a campus where there is not some modeling of older students excessively drinking, our challenge is to figure out how to change the contingencies in some ways to make it less likely that excessive drinking occurs. We have made strides in decreasing auto fatalaties secondary to drunk driving and have created an awareness of the dangers of DUI that was not prevalent 20 years ago. Perhaps we need more of that kind of approach if we could get a real consensus that college drinking is a national health concern.</p>
<p>I don’t know why you think I’d disagree with you. See post #159. The genetic propensity only has to do with whether drinking is likely to progress to alcoholism, and not at all as to whether people will drink (which is wholly environmental.)</p>
<p>bbmom: good point about past trends. With all the talk about binge drinking it would seem that there has been an increase in alcohol use. Studies show that alcohol and drug use at colleges peaked in the late 70’s, declined through the 80’s and has been relatively constant since. That’s not to say use is at an acceptable level on most campuses.</p>
<p><< The only thing that’s changed since we were in college (20 plus years ago) is that we are now the parents. Let’s see, we’re worrying about sexual promiscuity, unprotected sex/pregnancy/STDs, drugs, and alcohol. Are any of these issues new >></p>
<p>There have been some changes — when we were in college “nice kids” slept with their boyfriends/girlfriends, but they didn’t have the one night stand hook ups that exist today. Like I said in an earlier post, kids are having sex with people that they wouldn’t lend $100 to. My point being that they don’t even hardly know their sexual partners – and that can be dangerous to their lives – College Freshman Taylor Behl’s recent murder by a “sexual hook up” comes to mind.</p>
<p>Also, (at least when I was in college) the “date rape” drug wasn’t a problem. </p>
<p>When I was in college, herpes was the 'scary" STD, now there are some that are worse (AIDS, for one) and some that are hard to detect which leave girls infertile.</p>
<p>mini, you overstate the effect of genes on alcoholism; while they are important, they are far from the sole determining factor in whether or not someone can drink moderately. That, of course, ignores the fact that many “alcoholics” can be taught to drink moderately (see “Heavy Drinking” by Fingarette if you don’t believe me on that one).</p>
<p>I’ll also add that most studies done on how much teenagers (and probably adults) drink are fundamentally flawed in a number of ways; aside from the anecdotal evidence I’ve observed where people are often embarassed to admit to how many drinks they’ve had, many if not most people have little idea of how much they are actually drinking, especially with mixed drinks and shots (most people underestimate the amount of alcohol in their mixed drinks by ~90%, and most people view tall shotglasses as holding much more than wide shotglasses (this is true of other types of containers as well)).</p>
<p>“That, of course, ignores the fact that many “alcoholics” can be taught to drink moderately (see “Heavy Drinking” by Fingarette if you don’t believe me on that one).”</p>
<p>We’ve been unable to reproduce the “moderate drinking” results here. And, in fact, most of the positive results that have been found with moderate drinking were interventions done with “heavy drinkers”, but not with alcoholics (and there is a diagnosable difference.) We have been doing similar work in our state with brief interventions/brief therapy among folks who visit emergency rooms, where it is found that their reason for the visit may have something to do with alcohol/drug use, but are not alcoholics or drug-addicted. It works, but only if you are able to offer the brief interventions/brief therapy to substance abusing non-addicts.</p>
<p>“I’ve observed where people are often embarassed to admit to how many drinks they’ve had, many if not most people have little idea of how much they are actually drinking, especially with mixed drinks and shots (most people underestimate the amount of alcohol in their mixed drinks by ~90%,”</p>
<p>On another forum, I reported the results of this experimental data as it relates to college binge drinkers. Folks who say they have had four drinks in an episode, and hence are classified as “non-binge drinkers” on average had 5; and when asked to measure out a drink, on average measure one which is 1.75X the size of a standard drink. What this means is that a “4-drink” student classified as a non-binge drinker actually averaged 8.75 drinks. In other words, the “binge drinking” data well underestimate incidence.</p>
<p>jlauer95—in my college days, there were nice girls who only slept with their own boyfriends, nice girls who slept with their friends’ boyfriends, and sluts who slept with anything with a pulse. And males across the same spectrum. Drunk, drugged, and sober people had sex with eachother. Good girls and bad got pregnant. Aids has been around since the early 80’s, along with herpes and other STDs. The condom has been our friend then as now. There were binge drinkers, people doing acid, mushrooms, speed, pot, you name it. Girls were raped on and off college campuses by friends and strangers alike. </p>
<p>Other than the potency or menu of drugs, I just don’t see anything new. Hormones drive young people to mate and chemicals break down the mental barriers to physical contact faster than meaninful conversation and courtship.</p>
</p>