I have some first-hand experience with Brown. Let’s say that career services has not been their greatest strength, but “the ivy” gives them a slight boost so you would probably rate them as adequate. If you add in the grad school acceptances, they certainly do much better. I realize that is not usually factored in career services.
OP- what is your purpose in posting? Any student who has already committed to Brown for next year doesn’t need to be second guessing their choice. And students who are considering Brown (usually described as the least pre-professional of the Ivy League colleges) aren’t going to be deterred because Brown isn’t the fast track to Goldman Sachs that Penn or Dartmouth are.
You know people who “relentlessly” criticized the staff. OK- who are these people you know, and do they also relentlessly criticize baristas who don’t make nice foam, or professors who give C’s when students hand in sub-par work?
I find these “relentless criticizers” of Career Development teams at every college. The team isn’t there to “place you” in a high paying job. The team isn’t there to figure out for you what you want out of your adult life.
Did the team actively sabotage someone’s interview? That deserves relentless criticism. Did the team pick up the phone and tell the MD you were supposed to interview with at DE Shaw that you had a disciplinary action on your transcript for cheating? Or something unforgivable like telling a corporate recruiting team that they could not serve alcohol to minors at a recruiting event??? That’s not on Career Development- that’s a university-wide rule that comes directly from the General Counsel, Board of Trustees and President of the university.
What deserves relentless criticism in this context? I am baffled.
I’m also wondering at the odd specificity of this first post. It’s almost as if OP, who claims fond memories of the career center, appears to be talking about some kind of shady former reputation and wants someone to validate their impression of the career center as a controversial place with poor guidance.
The reason I did the post the way that I did was that I wanted honest discussion, and even some posting of facts and evidence, of Brown Career Services.
My phrasing also tried to show shades of gray.
During my era, several other people I know described Career Services as “an embarrassment to the high caliber of students they served.” Indeed, during my era, several of their staff did not even have college degrees, but were working there. They did not know about common assessments. They ended up taking down applications accidentally. They were very two-faced and downright rude.
To be fair, some of my friends, who also criticized the department performance in general, befriended some people there. So, there are shades of gray. Additionally, there is a way to say “I think this person is not very good, whereas this person is good.”
Believe it or not, some of the things you said actually did happen. I cannot give details of people I know, etc.:
”Did the team actively sabotage someone’s interview? That deserves relentless criticism. Did the team pick up the phone and tell the MD you were supposed to interview with at DE Shaw that you had a disciplinary action on your transcript for cheating? Or something unforgivable like telling a corporate recruiting team that they could not serve alcohol to minors at a recruiting event??? That’s not on Career Development- that’s a university-wide rule that comes directly from the General Counsel, Board of Trustees and President of the university.”
Unless it violates the rules, I think it is reasonable for OP to start a discussion about career services at Brown, or any school. Obviously, he does not post here often, but that does not mean he should not ask us our opinions and share his. @BrownAlumni2026 seems to be “trying” to be diplomatic, so not sure why we are not giving him a chance to tell his story. If there is a problem I am missing, someone should flag his posts.
A core function of a career services office is to facilitate interviews, informational coffees, resume drops, “come meet alumni who work in the media” events. The people who do the heavy lifting on these activities do not need to have college degrees. They are reserving space, they are resolving calendar conflicts, they are ordering coffee and pastry, they are alerting building services and security that a particular event may run over and that staff may need to be in the building after hours.
Do you really think EVERY career services operation in the country hires college grads for these clerical/admin roles? Because they do not. Students may be dismayed when they call the office to find out “What time does the Health Careers panel start?” that their call is not handled by a college graduate. But unless the person willfully gives them inaccurate information, I’m not sure where the “relentless” criticism comes from. Every panel or recruiting event I’ve ever attended has the presenters given nice name tags (pre-printed) whereas the students are given a sharpie and a blank tag and asked to fill out their own.
Does anyone think that the person handing out the sharpies needs to be a college graduate?
My kid was very happy with career services (some years ago). Had summer internships, interviews and job offers and has done very well. There is also a lot of support among grads in his field. My kid calls it the “Brown Mafia”! I just want to make sure any students admitted for the coming year aren’t worried!
As at any school, doing volunteering, internships and jobs during those 4 years, including the summer but also during the school year or even on campus, can really help with future job applications.
You do make a good point. In the other universities I went to, everyone had a college degree. I am not sure if it is a requirement.
Rather, I have heard and seen great examples of Career Services: Princeton, Northeastern, etc. There are many rankings.
On the other hand, a great many people are dissatisfied with Brown Career Services, especially during the 2005-2012 time I am familiar with. I will go so far as many people have gone so far as to say “ineffective” and “unprofessional” rather than just subjectively dissatisfied.
I keep wanting other’s experiences and input, because there are shades of gray. In my experience, there were a few good moments with Career Services, but most of their service was very poor. I did not ever feel this person of advice was good. Almost all of them came from lesser ranked colleges, failed their medical school, or just otherwise were at that job for the right reasons. My own impression is that they could not get a different job, would take a different job if it came their way, or were just not up to par.
Again, other people have other experiences. Some of my friends say “I befriended this person, even though they just were a secretary, did not advising, and were getting their degree at SNHU online.”
Even a person who is a lifer at that office, and risen to the top, has lots of shades of gray. I always thought this guy was rude, but several other people I know thought he was cool. They praise his resume writing skills, and I can even agree. I have even praised him publicly for his example of athletics, business casual dress, and realistic estimates.
You should read the various analyses (including an authoritative one from the federal reserve bank) outlining the career difficulties that college graduates had in finding a job (any job) during and after the global financial crisis in 2008. The Fed has estimated that it has taken many of this cohort almost a decade to catch up (which means that some have not caught up yet). Moreover, there was a “soft recession” in late 2007/early 2008 which resulted in many companies cutting their hiring targets earlier that year, even before Lehman imploded.
Sometimes it helps to get global perspective before deciding that an employee’s lack of a college degree is the reason why college students struggled to launch during this timeframe.
Even the best career services team cannot outrun a lousy job market. Period, full stop.
So you are suggesting that Brown career services left a negative impression with you 15-20 years ago? When I went to Babson… way more than 20 years ago, Brown and Tufts students would make their way to campus and our career services because their schools had very little in that department. My impression now, however, is that each of those schools have improved considerably.
Students don’t “study computers”! Sorry your experience was disappointing. We did not have a lot of money and so my son had to work on campus and I think that helped him. And he had to work summers. I agree with others that nowadays schools are much more focused on career. But I happen to know that Harvard career services weren’t great either. Maybe they have improved too.
Again, I tried to make this forum objective. I appreciate people sharing their different experiences.
Since people seem to be asking my subjective experience: yes, I think Career Services was very unprofessional in a many ways. I have worked with and seen others, and even have career advising training myself. Career Services acted below professional standards many times.
To be fair, they did occasionally have some good points. They even gave me a rare scholarship and provided some other insights that others probably could not. But, taken as a whole, this team is pretty poor, in my opinion.
As far as the economy, it is correct that the difference between a boom economy and a bust economy is night and day. Still, it is not an excuse for Career Services to be low quality.
I actually went to Brown in the mid-2000’s, when the economy was still good. Unfortunately, Brown Career Services had a bad reputation then. Then, the Great Recession made things far worse.
Again, I welcome different perspectives. I even had a few good memories with some of them. Others give a more balanced perspective “good in this, but not-so-strong in this,” while others even befriended some of them.
OP - someone having a college degree doesn’t help kids find a job.
Most jobs today are found on line - LinkedIn, indeed. Cornell used to publish the how kids find job data - now taken down. The 3rd party websites were the biggest way and dwarfed on campus or career, alumni or professor contacts.
Kids find jobs. Schools don’t find them for them.
There are Ivy kids who struggle. There are Brown kids who likely work for URI grads.
The best way to see effectiveness is to look at grads. Unfortunately Brown doesn’t publish school data for current grads and I agree that’s not a good sign. They do look 5 and 10 years out but don’t have a strong knowledge rate - ie they don’t know about enough alums.
In the end tho, kids need to hustle. If you had a question or needed resources, would they help you find them ? That to me is important.
A. I can agree with what you say, about individuals need to “go out and get things.”
B. Still, I hope you can see where my criticism comes from:
They only allow liberal arts at this supposed “Open Curriculum.” When people tried to propose business classes, ROTC, welding, and other practical things, the managers (called CCC) shot it down. They said it was not intellectual enough. They did that to me, in a very rude way that wasted six months.
Somewhat comically, they have a business curriculum and ROTC now, albeit how weak it is. It seems like what they say versus what they do are always completely different.
I was worried that liberal arts would be worthless. I got letters from administrators and top alumni who said “just relax; campus recruiting will be great.”
For me and many others, campus recruiting did literally nothing. Granted, with some of my friends there were special cases.
When that did not work, we tried getting jobs with our regular network. The same reasons apply “not enough or no experience in that line of work; no technical skills; too many other people will do this job, and are lined up.”
Then, when you ask those original mentors, they give more empty advice: “Stay positive, that’s the ticket. Use all the resoures; use everything. Talk to Career Services.” “Your education is what you make of it.”
Not one piece of advice was specific to my case.
In my experience, community college and the military were better at diagnosing my aptitude and getting jobs. Then, when you tell this to a Brown alumni who mentored you, they never admit fault or the need to change, they say “there you go! Stick with community college or the military.”
C. As far as TSBNA44 saying “handing you a job is not a thing anywhere,” I must politely disagree.
I have gotten people jobs with one phone call. Others have done so for me. But, never Brown Career Services or alumni.
In my hometown, several people got me jobs in their company, or with a single phone call. Other people at different universities made introductions that lead directly to a job. When I go to high-demand markets, I can get a job very quickly. The military obviously has recruiters who want to make quota and get you into a job.
But, never was there help with Brown alumni. Never did Career Service do any of this. The only thing I ever got from this community was wasted time, energy, cell phone minutes, lost hope, and those cheap excuses. It was never “we see your point, and we can work on changing,” it was always “well just go somewhere else” or “we can’t help you.”
D. So, in summary, I agree that Career Services do not necessarily need a bachelor’s, etc.
Yet, I have seen wonderful Career Services or people in the field who can get jobs easily. Then, there is what Brown University offers.
I hope anyone reading this has extreme caution when trusting Brown University Career Services and alumni. At least from the perspetive of me and a few dozen cohort members, they were unprofessional and not very good.
I don’t know anyone - a stranger - who just makes a call and has a job.
And alums are people - some are helpful, some not. I probably get contacted by 10-15 a year. You cannot help everyone extensively - and most might not be in a position to connection for a job but rather offer assistance.
No school has perfect recruiting - there’s always some kids “still seeking” - if you’re one of them, it would stink - but it happens.
Just for the record, I have made a phone call and gotten people I know jobs on at least three occasions.
Likewise, I can think of four times the same thing has happened for me.
So, it can be done. I have seen other universities do it. I have seen other such acts. But, never with the Brown community. Again, in my evidence-based opinion neither Brown Career Services nor the Brown Comnunity are capable.
**
The point of all this post is to take a look at Brown University Career Services.
In my opinion, Brown Career Services is very unprofessional, underperforming, across-the-board unperforming department.**
Of course, I want everyone else to give their facts, evidence, opinions. This is a discussion where people can post it for review.
I was a peer counselor in Brown’s Career Services years before you were a student (looks like I was there 10-15 years before you) – my job mostly involved working with students on their résumés, helping them use the department’s resources for finding internships and such, and facilitating informational meetings where potential employers spoke and perhaps conducted some first-round interviews (I remember hosting one evening with some Wall Street firm and another with Teach for America). I also used their dossier services for applications to grad schools and jobs. (Incidentally, as an undergrad at the time, I definitely did not have a college degree when I worked there!)
The expectations for a Career Services office was much lower then than it is now – no one had databases like Handshake, and some of our published guides to job and internship searches were probably dated because they would need to be replaced pretty frequently to stay perfectly current. But honestly, I had no frame of reference for any of that. But I can say that the people who worked there full-time were lovely and professional and hard-working. They supported students in all kinds of ways and brought well-known employers to campus to do presentations and interviews. I didn’t actually use their services much because I went straight to grad school(other than providing the dossier service, they were much better equipped to help people with job searches than grad school apps), but I knew many students who did and were pretty happy with them.
Now, of course, a lot has changed in terms of the job market and the kinds of services that career offices on campuses are expected to provide. I can’t know how Brown stacks up against other campuses, and unless you have a kid there now, neither can you. It sounds like you graduated about 20 years ago? That’s a long time to hold a grudge. I’m just wondering why, exactly, you’re picking this fight.