<p>I’d edit my post, but there appears to be a limit. I don’t have the time to read the entire thread as I’m on a layover. But from what I gathered the grades have been C range doing back into previous math courses(?). A C+ last year in trig, a mid to low B student in algebra II illustrates that a lack of study skills caught up to the child. That’s all there is to it. I’ve seen it time and time again. There is no substitute for strong work ethic.</p>
<p>I apologize- I haven’t read the entire thread. it si NOT too late to get tested and treated for a possible LD. My very intelligent D was in similar situation. She even thought she would likely go to art school when she was a sophomore/junior (she later decided LAC was a better fit). We all thought she was just slacking, especially in math, while she claimed she was just stupid in math. She had been in gifted/talented math in middle school but really started struggling in math in HS. We actually did try tutors, who would report that she was far brighter than the majority of students and grasped complex math theories very easily. They’d assure us she’d ace the test… but then she’d fail or get a D. She was finally tested for learning disabilities at the end of her junior year. Turns out she has a very high IQ but low working memory (crucial for math) and ADD-primarily inattentive. Having that diagnosis was a godsend, allowing her to stop blaming herself or thinking she was stupid, and instead work on ways to compensate for the weakness. She was motivated to get into her dream college so she “owned” the work, finally, during her senior year. She also went on medication for ADD. She reported that she could FINALLY do mental math, which she’d never really been able to do before, and she stopped failing tests. She also became much more organized and stopped having late/missing assignments. She’s so much more successful now! Maybe this is worth looking into?</p>
<p>Staceyneil, my daughter made the same decision.
She had been looking at art schools, but was also interested in science. However we decided it was much easier to do art as an EC than to do science in your dorm room!
Her college allowed non majors to use the art studios, but I doubt they would allow students not in the classes to use the labs!
:D</p>
<p>Students with very high IQs and LDs are definitely at a disadvantage in school.
They may be so sharp that they never had to develop study skills and compensated for their lds without even realizing it.
But in later high school and college, the way you apply knowledge ramps up, and they arent able to power through any more.
Both my kids found this book helpful.
<a href=“http://www.jonathanmooney.com/frames.pl?path=/learningoutsidethelines.html”>http://www.jonathanmooney.com/frames.pl?path=/learningoutsidethelines.html</a></p>
<p>Big fan of work ethic, but you are sadly mistaken if you think math just ‘works’ for anyone who spends the time. Not all brains function the same way. S1 never did any work in math at all and got 790 in the Math section of SAT, 800 on the Math II SAT II test and breezes through all math related things. D1 spends hours laboring over her math and despite years of practice and hours of special attention and hard work, she continues to struggle with Math. She is otherwise very smart, but anything involving Math just does not stick.</p>
<p>I recommend you take some courses in Educational Pyschology or Neuro-development. We are simply not all wired the same. Hard work can mitigate some of that, but there is a certain amount of math skill that is simply biological.</p>
<p>never mind arrogance cannot be shamed</p>
<p>@Torveaux I found it interesting you mentioned SAT scores for S1 but not D1. What do you mean by D1 is “otherwise very smart”? </p>
<p>While I don’t question your experience, in my experience the overwhelming majority of the kids struggling in math rarely ever spend “hours and hours” studying (or perhaps they do, only once it’s too late). The student never developed the study habits required, finds the subject painfully boring and there’s only so far you can go down that lackadaisical path until it catches up to you.</p>
<p>“D1 spends hours laboring over her math and despite years of practice and hours of special attention and hard work, she continues to struggle with Math.”</p>
<p>D1 has not taken the SAT yet. She is a rising Junior. She did get a 20 on the ACT as a 7th grader. (state recognition for Duke TIP) She is smart compared to ‘normal’ people. </p>
<p>The difference here is that I am not only relying on my experience, but in actual scientific research. </p>
<p>Can you describe her other grades in relation to her math? Struggling means different things to different people.</p>
<p>She has about a 3.7 excluding the Math classes. She gets Cs in Math.</p>
<p>Stop feeding the ■■■■■. Meaning ellen3.
Ellen3–why do you think shutting down conversations and dialog about legitimate concerns is a form of entertainment? Don’t answer–start your own thread on a different forum.</p>
<p>Jumping in late here, but this thread has seemed to devolved into a discussion of math class. I am more interested in the original title/theme: “can you make a kid raise her grades.” I just fought (and lost) that battle and wanted to share my experience. D2 just finished her soph year. She had straight A’s in middle school (grades 6-8) and highly advanced in math – took geometry at the HS as an 8th grader. We always thought she’d follow in the footsteps of D1 (who graduated top 1% of her class this year and will be attending UChicago in the fall). But freshman year, D2 got heavily involved in online social network activity, “discovered” boys, and quit playing sports. By the end of first semester, grades were in the toilet – mostly C’s and a couple of B’s – not for lack of brainpower, but for lack of work ethic. She just wasn’t doing homework assignments or turning in papers on time. I had assumed she was doing what she always did and freaked out when I saw her 1st semester report card. I got all over her case. Met with teachers, her counselor, etc. I made her do homework in the dining room where I could watch her and checked on her every 5 minutes. The second semester was a nightmare for the entire family with D2 and I both stressed out, her resenting me, etc. DW just kept saying, “let her fail.” But I couldn’t. For all that, we got her grades up to an A or 2, a couple of B’s, and one C. Over the summer we talked about it and she said, “Just leave me alone. Let me do it my way.” So this year I stayed off her back. I never once prodded her to do homework. A couple of times I might have said, “How’s school going?” To which she responded, “Fine.” I had the ability to check her grades online anytime but I never did. Not once. As it turns out, her grades ended up about the same as second semester of freshman year when I was being a slave-driving maniac. Same result, but a lot less stress for the entire family. And that was good enough for her. I finally had to let go and realize that she was her own person and responsible for her own grades. It was a hard thing to accept, but I got over it.</p>
<p>@DGDzDad She’s her own person… who uses a car, a cell phone and everything else you provide. She’ll also be her own person… that will expect you to pay for or co-sign on $100,000 or more in education, at whatever mediocre college that will let her in with a 3.0 GPA. Sounds like D1 was more self-sufficient and maybe spoiled you all as parents, so those skills were not taught or reinforced in D2 at a young age.</p>
<p>Just hoping OP comes back in to bring the discussion back to ground zero.</p>
<p>In the first place assuming that top colleges are stats driven is a fallacy.
They are looking for much more than GPA and SAT scores.
They are looking for someone who can benefit from attending their school, who will also bring something to the campus., whether it be as an athlete, as active in the arts, community organizer or innovative thinker.
And no you dont have to be all of those at the same time.
Universities are looking for a well rounded CLASS, but it is composed of LOP SIDED people. ;)</p>
<p>It is also a fallacy to assume that schools that give merit, or quelle horreur, a directional public university, are not great places to get an education.
They are.
They are affordable,they have profs who teach classes as their graduate schools are usually pretty small, and upper division classrooms are often small as well.
Profs are there because they want to teach undergrads, although their names may be practically as big to those in their field as the professors whose reputation is built on research, not their work in the classroom.
Academia, is a very competitive field, and just as those admitted to Harvard are often indistinguishable from those who are not, the same can often be said of those who are there to teach.</p>
<p>OP here: I’m trying to bite my tongue so I don’t bite off Ellen3’s head. What a sourpuss!!! Anyway, I loved DGDzDad’s story. I think he is “right on,” as they used to say. As regards my daughter, she DOES have a strong work ethic. She gets As and Bs in her other classes and has worked her butt off to put together a college-level art portfolio that a professor at RIT already told her would get her in–not that she considers it work. She has held several paying jobs and is a responsible member of society. What she is not is a math scholar, that much is clear (although she got a 30 on her ACT, with math at 27). She definitely is an artist and we are fully on board with shelling out $60K per year to send her to art school, since that is clearly where her talents and dreams lie. I have learned a lot from most of you and am going to save this thread and refer back to it when my son begins high school this fall. So far he has shown himself to be a scholar, but this will be a reality check should his grades slip. I said it to my husband and I believe it–the motivation has to come from within. They are old enough to know it’s on them. </p>
<p>An art student that hates math, who got a 30 on the ACT? That’s certainly stronger than I expected. There’s no reason she should be in advanced math. Should have let her drop down.</p>
<p>lauriejgs-don’t bite too hard. ellen3 is new to the forum and clearly never had a “class” in civility. Most of us who have been around for a while, and many you will find have been on this forum for 10+ years trying to help others, are respectful and try to be helpful. There is actually an “ignore” feature you might find valuable. Maybe if we all put her there, that will be helpful to everyone else. Your daughter sounds extremely talented! Best of luck to your family!</p>
<p>OP–you just said your D worked her butt off to put together an art portfolio. She’ll need that work ethic for art school in a big way. Hope she loves it!
But earlier you said she wasn’t working hard enough (at least on math) which was the point of the thread to some extent–change of heart? Tired of talking about it? I’m really interested.<br>
It is hard for parents to wrap their heads around some pathways that their kids choose so I’m interested in how those parents decide to support their kid’s choices and let go of their objections to that choice.</p>
<p>OP’s belief in her daughter is touching. If she is talented and dedicated, don’t let others’ snipes get you down. Not everything in this world is measured by grades. I do agree with blossom that kids need the skills, but some are not destined to be math wizzes. You want them to have analytical savvy, perspective, an ability to make effective decisions and the ability to learn and grow. (As well as to be good people.) That’s more than grades. </p>
<p>@gouf78 – No one will work hard without motivation, but the sources of motivation come from different places. </p>
<p>Some kids are people-pleasers and teacher-pleasers, who will work hard for an A in a class or subject they don’t like. For them, the reward of that A – or the reward of making their parents happy and proud – is the source of motivation. </p>
<p>Some kids are driven instead by their own interests and passions. They focus their energies on the things that give them the most pleasure or sense of accomplishment. That doesn’t mean they are hedonistic – their passion could easily be a desire to help starving children in Africa or to write computer programs — but the point is that they have little patience and energy for things that they find uninteresting. So they prioritize their time differently --the smartest and most capable will figure out how to devote the bare minimum effort required to achieve a minimal goal for the classes they don’t like, so as to have more time and energy available to devote to whatever it is they love to do.</p>
<p>As a parent, I have one of each. Sometimes it takes more patience to deal with the more individualistic, self-motivated student – they may do very well in endeavors that don’t get a lot of recognition, and they may seem to fall short again and again in areas that are important to the parent. In addition to interest in a subject, my son also has to like his teacher – I’ve seen that pattern sustained through grad school, though fortunately by his mid-20’s he got better at figuring out how to make “minimum effort” at least equate to a B+ grade. (In his early years of college, he had a mix of A’s and D’s – and the A’s were in the classes that objectively would seem to be the most difficult – but for him, they were also the most engaging.)</p>
<p>So I think the answer about “working hard enough” for the OP’s daughter is that simply that she is a very talented young woman who will work extremely hard for whatever goals she deems important… but if not, no amount of begging, threatening, cajoling or whatever will overcome her innate resistance. It’s not necessarily a conscious or deliberate thing-- I think it’s more of an inner voice that throws up all sorts of emotional barriers for whatever it is that the person doesn’t want to do. </p>