Can you MAKE a kid raise her grades?

Parents Forum
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<p>I’m touched that you guys are so interested! And sorry if I bit too hard. I guess I could use a civility lesson as well, since I’m fairly new here. The bottom line is this…our daughter works extremely hard on the things that matter to her–not just her art but also singing and songwriting. She actually has gone out busking on the street and made $12 bucks! She’s also cut a record with her ex-boyfriend’s band. And she takes three dance classes a week. She is an avid reader and–yes–she scored a 30 on her ACT (with months of tutoring). However…she is admittedly not interested in math and finds it frustrating and so she is not motivated to put the hours in. She finds it hard to concentrate and constantly takes breaks to play the guitar or look at YouTube. On top of that, her teacher from last semester (when she got a B-) is out on maternity leave and she now has a teacher right out of college. Before this she had never gotten a C in her life. She got an A in Geometry in 9th grade, a B or B- in Algebra II last year, and after her teacher this year had a baby she started wallowing in the C range and even dipped briefly into D+ territory for several weeks. </p>

<p>Understand that this was horrifying for my husband and me. Neither of us was a stellar math student but we worked hard for the grades we did get. Of course, YouTube didn’t exist back in the dark ages. I am positive she will do well in art school, or even an LAC if she chooses to go that route. But we just want to make sure she gives it her best shot. I see now that all the nagging about grades hasn’t helped a bit. I’ll keep you all posted during her senior year as to how her admissions go.</p>

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<p>The original question, “can you MAKE a kid raise her grades,” is one that has intrigued me for years. </p>

<p>My kids were singers in an opera program, with high school students playing the challenging piano music. The mother of one of the accompanists told me her son had been offered extra scholarship money for college if he would double-major in music, since the college was trying to build its music program. And the mother said he was willing to do that, since he’d <em>recently</em> come to the point that he enjoyed playing the piano. </p>

<p>I was astounded! Her son was a fabulous player and had been studying piano for years! I asked, “How did he get to be so good if he didn’t like it?”</p>

<p>She looked at me as if I had three heads and replied, “I’m the parent. I made him practice.”</p>

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<p>D is currently a rising junior at NYU going for a BFA in studio art. She, like your daughter, struggled with math in high school. She was honors track/ AP in most other classes, but struggled to get grades much higher than mid 70’s to low 80’s in algebra, geometry and trig. She attempted pre-calc in 11th grade and it was clear from the beginning of the term that if she stuck the class out, she would just barely pass at best. (This was with tutoring.) With her guidance counselor’s approval, and upon her math teacher’s recommendation, she withdrew from the class without penalty. If she stuck it out, she would have ruined her gpa and it was not worth the anxiety. She picked up a dumbed down math class called “College Algebra” which she was able to pull a 97 in for senior year. </p>

<p>So whereas I would encourage a child to keep with the 5 academic subject areas throughout high school, in this particular case dropping math it did not effect her acceptance to NYU. And she was later chosen to be in the scholar’s program as an incoming Freshman. NYU considers academics for 50% of their acceptance and talent for the other 50%.</p>

<p>NYU clearly saw D for her strengths–art, voice, theatre and the humanities (35 in English ACT and 720 verbal SAT) and overlooked her 610SAT/ 24 ACT math scores. She also had a lot of leadership and community service, too. I would say that RISD looks at academics even less.</p>

<p>I doubt reading your D the riot help would help in the least. If her grades in math are consistent with what they have always been, I’d have her stick with it. Make sure she always does her homework and any other thing that can help her grades in math. (re-do’s of tests, extra credit) Going into senior year she should be concentrating on her portfolio, since it will affect admissions the most. Good luck!!</p>

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<p>If OP’s D is interested in attending RISD or a similar school, perhaps she should take a look at the spread of math SAT scores and the easiest classes that will meet the graduation requirement for math. Many lopsided students do well to avoid schools (or majors within schools) where they would have trouble meeting all requirements. </p>

<p>In the long run, it is not always bad for a college student to be a bit (or even more than a bit) lopsided in ability or focus. Quite a few schools, including many elite schools, seem to have some very relaxed gen ed requirements. At many schools, students who either concentrate on their strengths or focus on a single area often seem to outperform peers who opt for more breadth, at least with respect to GPA.</p>

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<p>At to the original question, I have struggled with this with my kids. Unfortunately, none of them were motivated by getting top grades. The other issue is that they often thought they knew the material better than they did and did not really know what to study. Even asking for help was tough, because they understood the material and got the concepts easily, it was the details that tripped them up. And mistakes - a few mistakes here or there and the A become a B or the 700+ SAT score is not achieved. </p>

<p>I don’t quite know how the tiger moms do it. A parent can limit screen time, take away a phone or computer, keep a kid in, but often those methods don’t work. A kid can look like they are studying, but they could be daydreaming or looking at something interesting out the window or whatever. I am not sure how the tiger moms get the results they get. It has to come from the kid. </p>

<p>Math is challenging in many ways. As the classes get tougher there are many steps that need to be taken to get to the answer. If a student makes a calculation error or forgets a step, the problem is incorrect. Some teachers may only give minimal or no credit in those cases, making it tough to get top grades.</p>

<p>But there is also a lot of negative energy around math - it is hard, it is boring, you don’t need algebra or geometry in the real world. I don’t know if there is another way to teach math, but it can be incredibly boring. I heard a radio segment this morning about math anxiety and how students, especially girls, tend to pick up on this from their teachers. The anxiety about not doing well in math feeds upon itself so that the student’s body is in an anxious pose and the brain does not work as well when anxious. The researchers found that a “power pose” may alleviate this to some extent but more research is needed. </p>

<p>I wish there was a way to get a typical kid, not a math whiz, to feel comfortable and good about math. Yes hard work is needed, but it can be very discouraging and lead to hatred of the subject. It is not clear that the most recent “new math” has done much to improve instruction. </p>

<p>I don’t think it is a big problem if your daughter does poorly in one area and great in others, although it could limit her admission to certain schools. Certainly at this point there is nothing you can do about her math grades and punishment for a kid that is doing so well otherwise does not seem to be called for. If she is taking math next fall, I would be sure it is a class she can do well in. </p>

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<p>Calmom, I completely agree with you about the different sources of motivation. I have four kids and each is (or isnt ) motivated in completely different ways.<br>
First kid: not motivated by teacher/parent pleasing or A’s, coupled with no real internal motivation for any particular subject/passions.
Second kid: not motivated by teacher/parent pleasing or A’s, but highly motivated by passions/interests
Third kid: highly motivated by teacher/parent pleasing or A’s, but no particular passions yet
Fourth kid: highly motivated by teacher/parent pleasing or A’s; and highly motivated by passions/interests</p>

<p>So far, we have avoided (I think) any conversations with kid #1 that begin with the words “Why can’t you be more like kid #4?” But as much as I agree with the notion of “love the kid on the couch”, I have to admit that I’ve asked that question in my head dozens of times. It’s not a question of loving kid #1 less, but rather wanting all the opportunities and successes for kid #1 that kid #4 is sure to have. And knowing that there is nothing I can give him by nurture that will get him to the place kid #4 is by nature. </p>

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<p>Greatwhite. very interesting as this flies in the face of the “birth order” mantra that says the first born is more likely to be the most motivated. Are the first 2 boys and the other 2 girls? </p>

<p>I, too, have had that conversation in my head (and occasionally to my kids). Not in the sense of comparing one to the other, but of trying to explain how they are limiting their options by not living up to their “potential”.</p>

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<p>One more motivation–peer pressure.
DS made B’s (quite capable of A’s). I kept asking “how are your friends doing in class?” Him: “I don’t know, it’s not polite to ask.” “B’s are above average and they’re fine”. I could nag but it wasn’t going anywhere. Teachers nagged him too (they were a bit frustrated that he wasn’t putting forth his best effort also).
Well, he did find out that his friends had A’s in those same classes. Complete turn-around–A’s from there on out. </p>

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<p>@mom2and‌ Very early development of habits. Getting a 4-10 y.o. to study math develops those skills very early, and makes the child self-reliant. Good luck getting a defiant, overly confident 14-15 y.o. to suddenly start spending an hour or two per night on math homework. Not gonna happen.</p>

<p>I don’t quite know how the tiger moms do it. A parent can limit screen time, take away a phone or computer, keep a kid in, but often those methods don’t work. A kid can look like they are studying, but they could be daydreaming or looking at something interesting out the window or whatever. I am not sure how the tiger moms get the results they get. It has to come from the kid.</p>

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<p>The thing is. When they are very bright, they may not need to study when they are 4-10 yrs old, to do age appropriate or even above levels of math or anything else.
Are you going to make them sit there anyway?</p>

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<p>Yes, “Tiger Moms” make them sit… and do higher-achieving work. I see this everyday. The Tiger Mom kids are a year or two ahead of kids in 2nd grade math. Do it young, before the kids “hate” math and they don’t treat it like punishment. Wait until their bad habits catch up to them and they’re defiant teens who are going to look for shortcuts and pushback when you try to bring the hammer down.</p>

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<p>Mine swapped motivations as they got older. In lower school, D2 wanted to get A’s to please the teacher, while D1 wasn’t concerned about tests/grades, as long as she knew she put in the effort and did learn. By the end of hs and through college, D2 was more focused on the knowledge than grades and D1 got energized by learning and aiming for the grades (in her major and related work.) </p>

<p>I wanted them to do well as a measure of their preparedness for life- but I learned to stand back and assess differently than grades. They can think, analyze and defend ideas. If we’re really just focusing on grades here, I know it’s what it takes to improve college chances- but it’s not the only measure. We really need to look at our kids holistically. I wanted them to be ready for young adulthood- which is more than someone giving a letter grade.</p>

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<p>Are you saying that " Tiger" moms should be emulated and that you want docile compliant children?
<a href=“'Tiger Mothers' leave lifelong scars - CNN.com”>http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/20/lac.su.tiger.mother.scars/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I think tiger parenting is a misunderstood concept. We all have ways we groom our kids to “get” our goals. </p>

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<p>“Tiger” parenting unfortunately has a lot of negative connotations. I just used it in this thread to mean involved and ambitious parents, who know how to get their kids to reach their potential. I don’t think all “tiger” moms are aggressive and shelter their children from social activities for piano lessons. I see many well adjusted children that have “Tiger” parents, who just know how to play the game. And this is a game. A game that most either don’t know how, or don’t care to put the effort into playing. Let’s be honest, it’s a lot easier to let your kid get raised at school, it takes a lot of effort to work with your children every night, especially if you’re going to teach them accelerated math from age 5-12 y.o. on top of everything else. I think the problem is many parents have these goals in mind for their children, but don’t really pay much attention to those goals until high school begins. The foundation is laid MUCH sooner. A lot of Tiger parents don’t have to nag their children throughout high school because they got them to buy in and become self-reliant early on.</p>

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<p>My goal was to raise my kids so that they had many opportunities, and learned to respect themselves, each other & the earth.
They both are doing amazing, even if it took a while to get there.</p>

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<p>@greatwhiteway – how old are your kids? I’ve seen some changes in level of motivation at different stages of maturity. So I wouldn’t sell the kids without the passion short – that’s something that comes later for some than others. </p>

<p>Although I think we have to also get rid of the idea of realizing a “potential” – some people are a lot happier and feel more fulfilled with a lifestyle that has plenty of time for relaxation and socializing – they might be very happy to find a job that earns them enough to pay the bills but doesn’t come with a lot of stress or overtime. </p>

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<p>There are many kids who don’t find pleasure in studying and rather do anything else but studying. I think if you want to see improvement in her grades, she needs to maybe try other techniques when it comes to studying or reviewing her school work. Now a days there are many online learning resources that offer people tips or even have quizzes,flashcards,mindmaps as ways to help. I find these online resources very useful because it saves a lot of time and it is very effective. (Also considering in this generation technology is everything). I would suggest using Exam Time. I use their resources and I love them all. I was always a big flashcards person as a way to study and it would take me forever to write them all out and then still have to actually study them. My friend introduced me to Exam Time and I can make my flashcards so much quicker and I actually enjoy studying now. </p>

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<p>Most of the time, grades that don’t reflect the effort of a child who IS studying and who HAS a tutor can signal larger issues, like dyscalculia, that misinformed people like to write off as laziness and bad parenting. Math isn’t everybody’s strong suit, but there is a segment of the population who has to work smarter, not harder (or hours longer), to internalize the processes required to do complex calculations. </p>

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<p>If your daughter’s passing, I wouldn’t be concerned with a higher grade. I would want to know how much learning is going on. Have her do her homework with you so you can get a feel for her thought processes. I’d suggest you look up the symptoms of dyscalculia so you know what kind of things to look for. She may not have a processing issue, but if she’s working and not seeing results, it bears looking into. The other thing that comes to mind, with math, is that a weak intro class can cause problems later on. I do know people who struggled with Algebra II because their Algebra I teacher just wasn’t very good at devoting time to struggling students unless they were on his basketball team. If you’re confident there aren’t any processing issues, I’d continue the tutoring to catch weaknesses and just encourage her to do her best.</p>