Can you really "catch the stupid"?

sarorah · October 13, 2005, 3:04am

I was thinking about this recently, whether one could “lose” intelligence by being placed in a non-intelligent environment. And I asked my parents and they said it’s possible . . not necessarily to “lose” intelligence but to not progress, therefore appearing more stupid. They told me that one needs to nourish their intelligence by challenging what they know if they want to progress. Do you think that’s why we might have such a difference in the northeast education vs that of the south . . because people down here are more laid back, they’re not “challenging what they know”? What if someone took an objective test before they were placed in a not as intelligent setting, where no one really cared to learn, etc . . could they possibly score lower if the questions were re-worded?? It seems sometimes that when people who come from more competitive places to this southern area, at first they do really well, maybe even better than before (because this place isn’t as competitive nor as difficult) . . and then as time goes on, they actually don’t do as well on things that might have done well if they were still in that same, previous environment … which is what brought up the question, why I’m wondering if you can actually lose intelligence.

I think it’s possible for people to “catch the stupid” in a sense, because if your friends were previously harvard-bound brainiacs, you’ll have more intelligent conversations, there is more of that competitive aura . . and then if you move to a more laid back region, your friends don’t care as much, the work may not be as difficult . . maybe that’s what happens? You start to not care as much, so challenging what you know kinda goes down the drain, maybe you become lazy . . what do you all think, is it possible to “lose intelligence”/

berurah · October 13, 2005, 11:17am

lol sarorah~

I would pretty much assume that this could happen. As each of my six children was born, I could literally feel the brain cells vaporizing. After being a top-notch student, both undergrad and grad, I am now a hopelessly disorganized, memory-challenged, stops-when-she-walks-in-the-room (to TRY to remember what she’s gone in for in the first place) mess. So, yeah, I’d buy it…lol ~berurah

barrons · October 13, 2005, 12:09pm

If it means losing the need to engage in clever putdowns, passive aggression, and needless puns flavored with foreign phrases and obscure allusions–maybe not such a big loss.

latetoschool · October 13, 2005, 5:58pm

Sarorah, I am living proof. As background, by the numbers, tested as a child, I have (or perhaps “had”) a genuis level I.Q., and, excellent - no make that perfect - grades through school, as far as I could attend. The abridged version is that I had to leave school when I lost both parents (car accident), and was sent to a children’s home, where education was available only on the premises - we weren’t allowed off the grounds to attend regular school. (The reasons for this are rooted in a long tangly story about the facility’s charter changing from an orphanage to a home for teenagers in trouble shortly after my arrival, and residents like me were sort of trapped.)

So I have had no formal “traditional” education beyond 9th grade. I did finish high school though through an accredited correspondence school. Became a single parent at 24; predictably, no money for me to be able to go to college.

I never married; I put all my resources into D’s education; she is now a very accomplished senior in a top-tier college with plans to apply to PhD programs or med schools; I am now in the process of applying to colleges myself; have one acceptance letter but am going to apply to one or two more schools.

In my 20’s and 30’s, I could “keep up” with the rest of the world easily enough, and hold my own in the workplace and in social situations - I have enough “native intelligence”, and I read a LOT. Now in my 40’s it is much, much harder to fight falling behind - and being left behind - NOT so much because I lack the college education, but the social framework and enduring relationships that come from a sustained college and continuous learning experiences.

Obviously, my career growth has been somewhat impacted as well; it is getting harder for me to compete with those who have college degrees and advanced educations, but, again, NOT so much because of the credentials: in the aggregate, persons with higher educations have far stronger writing skills, they have superior articulation and are more poised in personal presentations, their social networks are stronger, etc. In my experience, a person can literally “get stupid” by failing to continually read, learn, experience, interact with others who are educated and intelligent, etc.

The good news, even without money, a person can always “insure” against intellectual degradation. Reading constantly helps: books, newspapers, periodicals, anything a person can afford, or grab for free; grabbing things to read in foreign languages helps too - even if one doesn’t know the language, I find that by trying to read enough of the same language over time I can eventually figure it out. I even read this board - several of the discussions are beyond my understanding, but even when ignorant of the subject matter, I will study sentence structure, method of expression, punctuation, etc. (Xiggi is one of my favorites because of clarity of expression; I like Curmudgeon too, but there are several others.) This will have to do until I can finally go to school.

It also helps to try to spend as much time as possible in the company of persons who are educated - or, if this is not possible, at least avoid spending time in situations where learning is restricted.

Your assessments about the south are correct. Luckily, I spend more than half the year in the northeast for business reasons. However, I actually own my home in the south. There is a HUGE difference in north vs. south intellectual environments. I come “home” to rest and recover; but I’m very, very glad I am not “stuck” here 365 days per year.

I’m also convinced that physical fitness is crucial to intellectual development in MOST cases, but that’s probably a whole new thread.

Last, I do realize I’m mixing “education” with “intelligence”, but in my world it’s impossible to separate the two.

calmom · October 13, 2005, 7:27pm

Latetoschool, from your post I think that you are one of the many highly intelligent people in this world who suffers from the false perception that you are less capable than you really are. This is very common among high-achieving people with perfectionist tendencies – in fact, I know of at least one study showing that the smartest and most capable workers or managers are the ones most likely to have a poor opinion of their own work, while the least capable ones are also the least insightful, far more likely to be convinced that they are smarter than others or making better choices when they are clearly wrong.

Your perception about the college-educated is based on an idealized but fictionalized assumption – that there are some sort of “social framework and enduring relationships that come from a sustained college and continuous learning experiences”. Er…, not in my world. Yes, I do attend a reunion every once in awhile and we all promise to do a better job of keeping up with one another - but that has never been a source of career networking nor the basis for my continuing learning experiences.

Of course I have a handful of sustained relationships with other highly-educated folks - but my own relationships are formed mostly around whatever I happen to be doing at that phase of my life. I mean - when the kids were in a co-op style elementary school, then a lot of time was spent commisserating with other moms & dads about such weighty topic as the quality of the tan bark under the playground equipment. I once had a long lawyerly conversation with a newly appointed judge about our progress with toilet training our toddlers. Of course I also have relationships with people I have met through my work - these include some of the most fascinating people I have ever known, but not necesssarily the most highly educated.

I applaud your desire to return to college and of course you are correct that having a college degree may open up opportunities for promotion or advancement that are otherwise closed to you – but you are really mistaken if you think that we college folk (I have a B.S. and a J.D.) have some sort of invisible Skull-and-Bones type fraternity that is carrying us through life. Most of us lead very ordinary lives and our social networks are formed around our extended families, our coworkers, the parents of our kids friends, and perhaps our neighbors or those who attend the same church or synagogue, or go to the same gym - in short, a mix of all kinds of people.

Careerwise, back when I was practicing law I figured out that the best way to exercise my brain was to avoid the company of lawyers. Highly-trained professionals tend to also develop a certain tunnel-vision of the brain, categorizing all problems and issues within the context of their training. (“To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”) For a fresh perpective, it helped to widen my horizons. Several times during my law career I came up with innovative legal theories and managed to make the idea fly in the courtroom – the other lawyers invariably had said, “you can’t do that”. The source of the ideas? My uneducated clients. Way back when I started, I got the idea that there was no such thing as a stupid question, so when some client or another would offer an uninformed suggestion, I always asked myself “why not?”

Anyway – my point is that you are a prime example of someone who has used your intelligence to get ahead in life despite lack of formal education. The tragic loss of your parents early in life might unfortunately have had more of an impact on your social networks than the lack of a collegiate experience - most of us with living parents have lives that are still very much connected to our families.

Of course an education is important, but I think that when you go back to college you will be astounded and amazed to realize how much you already know.

latetoschool · October 13, 2005, 8:57pm

Calmom, it’s so nice to post with you again, I have missed you.

To Sarorah’s original point of can one “lose” intelligence by being in a non-intelligent environment, I do not think you could ever possibly qualify, because you will never be in such an environment: your qualifications - college completion being one - combined with with your accomplishments since (accomplishments made possible or available because of your education) and your social circle will always serve as your barrier of protection against decline into Sarorah’s “non intelligent environment”.

For example, you discussed toilet training with a newly appointed judge; my knowledge on the matter I read in a Dr. Spock book that I grabbed from a homeless shelter; there really wasn’t anyone to discuss it with. You discussed the quality of playground equipment with other parents; my discussions at my D’s day care were mostly on the topic of could I please make up my late payment with my next paycheck, because she got an ear infection, I couldn’t afford to buy her medicine AND pay the weekly day care bill, but I could make it up in the next week, please please. How could I possibly engage my day care operator in intellectual dialog on child development issues - or even playground equipment selection - when I had cashed in my “face time” pleading for time to pay the bill? - And so on. (Of course, in the years since I’ve made enough money to buy that day care center and several more like it if I wanted to lol.)

People who gain admission to “intelligent environments” pretty much get to stay there; from my observation, it isn’t so much the credential itself, or even what a college graduate may “know” so much as it is a certain poise and polish, a certain intellectual “confidence” that they convey to others - which in turn seems to provide a sort of adhesiveness to relationships with peers.

I don’t think that it means you’re carried effortlessly through life - I think that you probably actually work a lot harder, even if only because there is so much more interesting work that you have earned the right to do. But I do think you enjoy your life far more, and I believe you’re exponentially happier.

calmom · October 13, 2005, 9:50pm

I think you missed my point – most of my social acquaintances and “network” are working class people - I used the judge anecdote to illustrate the point that conversations with the educated class are not necessarily intellectual stimulating. If you were to attend a social gathering with judges and lawyers right now, I am sure the dominant theme of conversation would be the baseball playoffs. In fact, lesson #1 for me when I started a career in what was then a largely male-dominated field was that if I didn’t know which team was playing which other team, and what the final score was on any given occasion, I was out of the loop.

I don’t know what idealized picture you have of me and my life because I have an advanced degree, but I live in a small tract home in a working class neighborhood. My kids went to public schools. The social network included all types of people, certainly not a bastion of the highly educated.

Of course I know lawyers and judges, but they aren’t part of a long term social network and only a handful have ever been friends. My closest friends are just as likely to have been single moms trying to make ends meet through jobs as beauticians or waitresses. And I’ve been through financial hard times, too and had to beg off paying debts on time, though at the time my child care situation was unforgiving in that regard.

I think that maybe in your view of the private world of the “educated” class you are confusing “education” with the status of being upper class and upper crust – but their whose social network is generally something they are born with… and about whom I have almost no experience whatsoever. Since I went to college and law school at public universities, I didn’t meet many rich kids that way. More like kids who worked their way through college with summer jobs in the canneries.

We weren’t discussing playground tan bark because we were rich intellectuals with time on our hand - we were discussing it because we happen to live in what is politely referred to as a “low-wealth” school district, and there wasn’t going to be a playground unless we built it. As I recall, the fathers who worked construction jobs and owned trucks were the biggest help with that project – I doubt that they had college degrees.

Again - I don’t dispute the value of an education. It opened doors for me that others didn’t have, something I truly appreciate precisely because so few in my social circle have advanced degrees. But it emphatically did not create any special social network, nor put me in some rarified environment of intellectualism.

And as far as your comment about my work being more interesting or my life being happier… I think you are making a very big mistake. My work is interesting because I choose to make it interesting, even if thought that has always meant foregoing higher paid work. My life is happy because I choose to look as my glass as half full rather than half empty. I know many happy and fulfilled college dropouts, and many utterly miserable doctors and lawyers. It’s got nothing to do with education and job title – and everything to do with attitude and self-image.

As I said, I think you are envying something that simply is not there. If your question is “what have they got that I haven’t got?” … I can assure you, at this stage of our lives, it isn’t the college degree.

latetoschool · October 13, 2005, 11:33pm

Calmom, I think we’re both slipping off message here. Sarorah’s original question was something like “is stupidity contagious” or can intellect degrade based on one’s environment, and, to depersonalize it, absolutely yes it can. Furthermore, intellectual scale is almost certainly a result of (1) education; (2) environment; (3) social fabric.

Furthermore, if you spent equal blocks of time in the northeast, in the mid-atlantic, and in the southern U.S., I think you would come to the same conclusions I have - the further south one travels, the less erudite the aggregate population appears. Just board a plane in any of these locals and listen quietly to the discussions - or check out the quality of the reporting in the local papers - or, for that matter, just evaluate the quality and depth of discussion in various elevators in buildings in major cities - the evidence is incontrovertible.

I don’t know what the numbers say, but I’d bet real money that the population of the northeastern U.S. has a higher percentage of college educated adults than any other sector of the country - except perhaps for D.C., and maybe San Francisco. And I’d furthermore offer that it manifests in “smart” clusters - groupings of very intellectually grounded persons. I’d even go so far as to guess that the northeastern population gets married later - and has fewer children per household, and smaller percentage of unmarried mothers.

Bottom line, you become what you do - or where you spend time. And, I think we’d both have to walk a considerable distance in the other’s shoes to be able to understand each other’s point of view.

Spiker · October 14, 2005, 1:20am

stupidity is totally contagious …look whats going on in washington…

calmom · October 14, 2005, 4:49am

LTS, all I meant to do in my post above was point out that you are a very intellingent and accomplished individual, despite lack of a college degree. I can understand your feelings of dissatisfaction when you have had such hardship to overcome in your life - but I think that is obvious that you are a very smart and capable person, and have done a terrific job supporting and raising a daughter on your own.

I don’t know where you grew up, but I grew up in the south (Texas) as part of a highly educated family. My grandparents had college degrees, my dad had a Yale law degree. I found a lot to hate in that environment - socially and politically I was a definite misfit and couldn’t wait to grow up and move out of state -but I didn’t find the people stupid. Yes there were some different cultural norms - but I didn’t then and don’t now confuse a Southern accent or an obsession with cheerleading, baton twirling and football with lack of intellect. I found a couple of other nerdy intellectual kids at my high school to hang out with.

So I think part of my irritation with the whole tenor of this thread is the elitism equating northerners with being suave and smart and sophisticated, while everyone south of the Mason-Dixon line is a brain-damaged rube. That simply is a cultural stereotype. I do understand that small town life can seem very stifling – I did at least grow up in a good-sized city – but there are plenty of small, isolated boring towns outside the south.

So no, I don’t think anyone can “catch” being stupid, though apparently it is possible for people to “catch” being prejudiced.

Greybeard · October 14, 2005, 5:28am

The OP’s question could be phrased another way: is intelligence a function or nature, or nurture?

The scientific consensus (universal, as far as I can make out, among those who study that sort of thing) is that intelligence is a function of both. There’s plenty of disagreement about the degree to which these two factors shape the intelligence of an individual, but no disagreement that they both play a role.

doddsmom · October 14, 2005, 7:05am

So I think part of my irritation with the whole tenor of this thread is the elitism equating northerners with being suave and smart and sophisticated, while everyone south of the Mason-Dixon line is a brain-damaged rube. That simply is a cultural stereotype.

Yes, yes, and double yes…I certainly agree with the above sentiment. As a Northeastern born but transplanted Southerner, when I first read the OPs entry I immediately began typing my response. Before I sent it, I took a breath and asked myself…do you remember what happened when you responded to that gifted thread…has the singhed hair grown back yet…are you really going to post your indignant reply and “burn” the OP and maybe get “burned” back (my eyebrows are growing back nicely, thank you)? Well, now I don’t have to, Calmom said it for me…thank you!

emeraldkity4 · October 14, 2005, 11:45am

I agree with doddsmom and calmom-
those are some pretty blanket generalizations that are being thrown around.
It is possible to get lazy with your brain, just like any other part of your body, but to blame that on who you associate with, seems an easy way out. My grandmother balanced her checkbook without a calculator till the day she died, my grandfather who didn’t go past the 8th grade did the NYT crosswords- take responsiblity for your own brains- don’t blame it on other( and yes I do know the syndrome of baby fatitigue- but I think that is just as much stress and exhaustion as not having intellectual discusssions with peers- I didn’t even get to go to the bathroom by myself- let alone read a newspaper- hard to feel brillant under those conditions)
Stupidity may not be contagious, but some seem to have outbreaks.
<a href=“Not Found - Overheard In The Office”>Not Found - Overheard In The Office;

latetoschool · October 14, 2005, 6:04pm

Calmom, your entire post is totally discounted because Texas just simply doesn’t count at all. It’s a thing unto itself. Now, I have very, very good friends in Texas, and have visited several times on business (but I don’t ever wanna go back). Bottom line, no one from Texas should be allowed to have any say whatsoever in this entire thread, because the place is so weird. And it’s hopelessly big.

Oh, on the promised lighter note, one of those Texas friends just sent me this in email (though I cannot imagine why he thinks I would be even slightly interested in reading it):

INTERESTING TEXAS FACTS

Nobody asked for them, but here are some little known
Texas facts:

Beaumont to El Paso: 742 miles
Beaumont to Chicago: 770 miles

World’s first rodeo was in Pecos… July 4, 1883.

The Flagship Hotel in Galveston is the only hotel
in North America built over water.
The Heisman Trophy was named after John William
Heisman who was the first full time coach for Rice
University inHouston, Texas

Brazoria County has more species of birds than any
other area in North America.

Aransas Wildlife Refuge is the winter home of North
America’s only remaining flock of whooping cranes.

Jalapeno jelly originated in Lake Jackson in 1978.

The worst natural disaster in U.S. history was in
1900 caused by a hurricane in which over 8000 lives were
lost on Galveston Island.

The first word spoken from the moon, July 20, 1969,
was “Houston…”

El Paso is closer to California than to Dallas.

Laredo is the world’s largest inland port.

Tyler Municipal Rose Garden is the world’s largest
rose garden with over 38,000 bushes with 500 varieties on
22 acres.

King Ranch is larger than the state of Rhode Island.

Tropical Storm Claudette brought a U.S… rainfall
record of 43" in 24 hours in Alvin in July 1979.

Texas is the only! state to enter the U.S. by TREATY,
instead of by annexation. (This allows the Texas flag to fly at
the same height as the US flag)

A Live Oak tree near Fulton is estimated to be 1500 years old

Caddo Lake is the only natural lake in the state.

Dr Pepper was invented in Waco in 1885. There is no
period after Dr in Dr Pepper.

Texas has had six capital cities.

<ol>
<li>Washington-on-the-Brazos</li>
<li>Harrisburg</li>
<li>Galveston</li>
<li>Velasco</li>
<li>West Columbia</li>
<li>Austin</li>
</ol>

The Capitol Dome in Austin is the only dome in the
US that is taller than the Capitol Building in
Washington, DC. (by 7 feet).

The name Texas comes from the Hasini Indian word “tejas”
meaning friends. Tejas is not Mexican for Texas.

The State animal is the Armadillo.

*An interesting bit of trivia about the armadillo
is they always have four babies! They have one egg which
splits into four and they either have four males or four females.
Well… I thought it was interesting anyway!

The first domed stadium in the U.S was the Astrodome in
Houston.

AMERICAN BY BIRTH. TEXAN BY THE GRACE OF GOD!
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS - TEXAS STYLE

People here in Texas have trouble with all those shalls
and shall nots in the 10 Commandments. Folks here just aren’t
used to talking in those terms. So, some folks out in West Texas
got together and translated the “K ing James” into “King Ranch”
language.
got:

Cowboy’s Ten Commandments posted on the wall at Cross
Trails Church in Fairlie, Texas.

(1) Just one God.
(2) Honor yer Ma & Pa.
(3) No telling tales or gossipin’.
(4) Git yourself to Sunday meeting.
(5) Put nothin’ before God.
(6) No foolin’ around with another fellow’s gal.
(7) No killin’.
(8) Watch yer mouth.
(9) Don’t take what ain’t yers.
(10) Don’t be hankerin’ for yer buddy’s stuff.

Now that’s kinda plain an’ simple don’t ya think?

Y’all have a good day.

One Texas Under God

latetoschool · October 14, 2005, 6:27pm

Doddsmom and Emeraldkity, I spend maybe a fourth of my time in the medium sized southern city where we own our home, another fourth in Miami, another fourth in Washington, and another fourth in New York/New Jersey. Then a few business trips a year to California, and when I cannot avoid it, to Texas. I have been doing this since D left for college - so for almost four years (although I traveled frequently for business even when she was in high school). Lucky for me I get to control where I work, and for how long. (Sooner or later I’m going to pick one of these places and stay there.)

There is a very clear and distinctive difference in the intellectual environments between D.C./NYC/NJ and the south where I own our home. I don’t have any empirical data, but I come home to “rest”; when I get antsy and need my intellectual “fix”, I line up the work and hop the next plane headed north. Weather is never a determinant - I don’t come back home because of snow or anything like that - I come home when my brain needs a break, and to recharge.

And to the second part of the OP’s question, I do think we are greatly influenced by our surroundings - I mean, c’mon, if environment weren’t extremely important, especially related to intellectual growth, why would any of us be interested in the college search and selection process? Actually, why would there even BE a search and selection process - our children could just sign up for the state school or heck even just the local community college and be done with it.

joev · October 14, 2005, 7:16pm

To answer Sarah’s original question, one can most definitely become stupider depending on who you hang with. I try to hang out with certain people only some times, because their level of intelligence is below that of a toothpick, and I become dumber listening to them.

Can you really "catch the stupid"?

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