After getting final deicisions about merit/need based aid, I have two choices:
The University of Alabama: BS Mathematics, BS Finance, MA Mathematics
~2k/year for 4 years, ~15k for 5th year
OR
UNC-Chapel Hill: BS Mathematics, BSBA Business Administration
Auto-admission to Kenan-Flagler
~25k/year (in-state)
Right now, I’m looking at quantitative finance (banking, private equity, etc) for a career but would enjoy other mathematical fields such as actuarial science. Considering the reputation of Chapel Hill, is Alabama even worth considering? Does an Alabama MA in Math have any value beyond a BS from Chapel Hill? Thank you for any thoughts you can share!
The trade off of Bama is that it will likely be harder to land interviews (in many cases) but as an example, Jame Street offered my engineer sum their test (step 1) and Bama has an IB Academy.
I assume you are NMF.
Statistically UNC no doubt would be the ‘wiser’ move - assuming no loans.
There’s no assurance from anywhere - and those that say, it’s not possible from one place - are wrong.
If the debt is $27K or less - I don’t like debt but that’s not insurmountable - so in most cases, UNC would be the much better case but no one can say that with certainty. And you get that Masters at Bama.
Best of luck to you - whatever you decide.
PS - ask Bama for examples of folks working in the roles you’d like - or find them on linkedin, reach out and ask for an informational interview.
Have you incorporated in your thinking the lost wages as an opportunity cost of a 5th year at Bama?
If I am understanding your question in 4 years time you could be either a UNC KF graduate earning approximately $125k+ as an I banking (or other related field) analyst or a 5th year grad student at Bama spending $15k.
If this is the case I don’t see the Bama degree ever making up for those lost wages and lost year of career advancement. I don’t see the MA making you that much more marketable.
I am tagging both @hebegebe and @BKSquared who have relevant career experience.
If considering I banking this thread may be of interest. UNC is a target for many I Banks while Bama is not. In practical terms, this means while you can find I banking jobs from both schools, it is much easier from UNC and the available UNC KF roles will be more “front office” in nature.
Late edit: I thought I remembered you. Congratulations and great result!!
I would take the in-state/auto-admit to Kenan Flagler, no question. My oldest is a KF grad, was recruited through Women on Wall Street, started her career in corporate investment banking at Wells Fargo where she rose to VP. She is now at JPM. She chose not to work/live in NYC but many in her group sit there. She works in less hectic/less expensive city and travels to NYC once or twice per quarter.
KF was a great springboard for her. Many of her co-workers at WF were also UNC grads. Just keep in mind when recruiting for internships and jobs, you’ll be competing against all your equally qualified KF classmates.
FWIW, my younger daughter, who is graduating with a dual finance/commercial RE degree from a university in another state, was also recruited through Women on Wall Street, and will begin her corporate banking career in a different department but at the same company as my older daughter - so her outcome was the same coming from another university with a lower ranking for its business program. Nonetheless, if you have that auto-admit in your pocket with in-state tuition, I would take it! Congrats!
I would also lean towards UNC and K-F direct admit.
The competition is actually more broad than that as there are plenty of non-business majors going into careers that K-F students might be interested in such as IB/other types of financial analyst jobs, trading, financial advisory, quant/mathy jobs, etc.
I don’t think KF students are being ‘given’ any opportunities…they have to hustle, network and compete for the prime jobs just like everyone else. For example, IB recruiting starts soph year, and anyone can apply directly to those jobs (and the programs that can lead to those interviews.) K-F students do not have priority in seeking those opportunities.
I will say one thing that I do not like about UNC K-F (aside from secondary admission process for most) is that the career center is not open to the whole school, it’s only open to K-F students and business minors.
I agree with @Catcherinthetoast, I just don’t see an MA in Math as being additive to long term goals (unless you want to pursue some further graduate degree) with significant opportunity costs (lost salary and year of work experience). I am sure Alabama places graduates into finance, including IB, but it is likely going to be regionally focused. If we are talking big city bulge brackets, placement is more likely in operations/back office roles. Adding an MA in Math is unlikely going to make a big difference in job placement.
The opportunity cost of the 5th year at Alabama is definitely something I’ve been considering lately. Assuming I had a high UNC GPA, joined the right clubs, networked successfully, etc, would 125k/year right after graduation be standard for I Banking? What about Private Equity or Consulting, or (if I couldn’t break into high finance) a decent corporate finance role?
I hadn’t thought about what you said about the increased liklihood of landing a front office role at UNC vs a back office role. Is the work done in the front office significantly different from the work done in the back/middle offices?
Regarding the other thread, thank you to all who gave me advice there. I ended up applying to Emory, Vanderbilt, Fordham, and UPitt in addition to UNC and Bama. Unfortunately no significant merit offers (I was rejected at Vandy and waitlisted at Emory) but I think this was a solid profile of schools which saved my senior year from just being application after application.
You say quantitative finance, but then mention fields (banking, PE) that are not typically considered “quant”. Can you elaborate further on what you mean by quantitative finance and how you envision applying math in these fields?
Re actuarial science, that can be a great application of mathematics. And for that field, what matters most is how you do on the actuary exams, not the college you attended.
We currently pay our first year analysts $110k base with some relocation money plus a modest performance based bonus eligibility. I consider 4 years from now $125k a fair estimate given typical YOY adjustments. These packages tend to be relatively standard across IBs and often move in lock step. I can’t speak for other finance roles but we tend to compete fairly successfully for candidates so I am sure we are competitive in terms of comp.
Typically less than 50% of the people who work for IBs are what you would traditionally think of as bankers, capital markets, sales people or traders. The work is entirely different and school representation varies widely by role. As an example lots of Stevens and VT alum in IT depts at IBs but these aren’t bankers.
Specific to your choices, I know multiple UNC alum who are in M&A as well as Debt Capital Markets and FI sales. The only Bama person I know is an event planner who does a great job but would never consider herself an investment banker.
Please note the support teams like HR, Communications, Legal, Operations, IT, Risk, internal audit, etc are all extremely appreciated and highly important in the success of a bank. IBs also tend to pay these professionals well relative to non banks.
There will likely be representatives from most any school in any and all of these front office and support roles. The reality however is that most of the traditional front office roles are recruited from “target” schools like UNC via analyst training programs.
Before we start disputing the efficacy of cherry picking Linedin in profiles, I will stipulate it is possible to find an exception to any rule. In my experience however if seeking a client facing analyst role attending a target school like UNC is the way to go.
The salary ranges vary significantly. The $125k for IB pertains to bulge bracket and maybe a few boutiques. Depending on the PE, it could be higher, but their usual modus operandi is to let the IB’s train the analysts first before they poach them. Larger consulting firms are also in the $100k+ range. In all cases regional/midmarket type shops will pay less.
Front office refers to positions which face the clients and which generate revenues. These are the high paying jobs. Operations/back office refer to positions that support the front office. These jobs often are very mechanical and process driven. You can make decent money, but not like a front office position. As an aside, when people do LinkedIn searches of college placement at IB’s, you’ll get a false read for certain colleges because a high percentage of their grads place into back office positions.
Yes, sorry for the confusion. I said quantitative finance to make it clear that I was interested in the more math-heavy roles. I’ve that banking and PE roles are generally less focused on financial engineering and modeling than IB, but there still are some roles that use advanced mathematical techniques, correct?
Okay, I see the difference between the front and back offices. Though I might enjoy a position in Risk or Operations, it seems wise to target the front office knowing that back office positions would be easier to come by later.
Quantitative skills are necessary for IB/PE positions. However, it is in the world of sales and trading (including quants) where math and computer skills are critical. My S’s friends at quant hedge funds all have super strong backgrounds in math and CS. He is a derivatives trader and his education was focused on quantitative branches of economics. Better hours than IB/PE/consulting, but a lot of daytime stress.
Not sure that is the typical path. A lot of graduates of non-target schools will take back office positions as a way to work into a front office positions. A lot of successful front office types will take a stint in leadership back office roles if they are on a “management” track. I am not sure how many less successful or burnt out front office types “fall back” into back office roles. I think those situations usually involve leaving the industry or moving laterally to another firm. @Catcherinthetoast will have a better feel for this.
Agree with your comments. I know several senior managers who have stepped out of client facing roles for stints particularly in risk or HR as a touch stone for career advancement who then return to front office.
It is also as described typical at junior levels to see junior support staff (often from non targets) try and work their way into more traditional “banking” roles. This used to be a much more common pathway but seems to have gotten harder as the formal training and rotational elements of analyst programs have gotten more prescriptive.
Lastly I don’t know any client facing focus who have gotten burnt out and moved to support. Senior level support professional have a lot of technical and role specific expertise. These skill sets at a certain level seniority aren’t fungible in my experience.
When my daughter was a student there, she and her classmates were given leads on internship opportunities via the KF career center, which as you indicated, is limited to KF students and business minors. They were also provided with many opportunities to attend KF-only events which were also attended by representatives and speakers from local and national companies in a variety of sectors, where they were able to network and pursue opportunities. These events were not open to those who were not KF students.
And yes, they have to hustle for sure. Every student at every business school who wants to get into this field is very likely hustling.
Of course there’s nothing preventing someone with an major outside KF from pursuing opportunities at these same companies on their own, but part of the allure of admission to KF, the reasons it’s competitive, highly rated and the reasons students are willing to pay an additional premium to attend, is because of the course offerings, networking opportunities and assistance with internship and job placement.