Carleton [$90k], Macalester [$60k], Grinnell [$60k], or state school [$30k]? [math and art history]

My son is trying to decide between three liberal arts colleges and our state’s flagship school. I will say right now that we and he are very familiar with this state school. It is an excellent school. It is large, known for strong academics but also a rowdy social scene, and not necessarily a perfect fit for him. But he is still content to attend it, and he would definitely have the opportunities to succeed there.

I am hoping to gather input about his other three choices, Carleton, Macalester, and Grinnell.

Academics

He is intending to major in math, and wants to later complete a master’s. He wants to do research, maybe as a career, probably in chaos theory or dynamical systems.

Obviously, the state school has the most comprehensive math offerings, including its grad classes. However, Carleton seems to be comparable, with coursework in analysis and applied math that perfectly fits his interests. Macalester also has a fairly broad math curriculum, though it is seemingly not as renowned for this as Carleton. Grinnell looks to have the most meagre math offerings, with mainly rotating topics courses at the upper level.

I think an important point here is that (honestly) he is not a prodigy in math. He doesn’t wake up and go to sleep thinking about math, for all that he loves the subject. It’s not as if he needs, for his intellect’s sake, a deeply intensive math curriculum that would prepare him to become a great mathematician. Still, he will have completed calculus 1-3, linear algebra, differential equations, and probability theory during high school, and there is somewhat of a worry that the LACs might not offer enough courses for him. One of the things we are wondering about is whether the math seminars and math topics courses at LACs tend to able to match the rigor and range of state flagship math departments at the upper level.

He is also planning to take lots of art history courses, though he doesn’t plan on pursuing a career there. All four of his options offer an art history major, if he ends up wishing to add one, and he’s satisfied with the coursework options in this. One point he’s mentioned is that he would feel more emboldened to take these art history courses at the less expensive schools, since he would feel less pressured internally to treat his degree as an investment to be repaid. This is something we’ve been trying to talk through.

The open curriculum at Grinnell is also hugely appealing to him, mainly because he wants his classmates to have chosen their classes out of an interest in the subject itself. He does not like the idea of people having to tick boxes. The trimester system at Carleton hasn’t really been a factor for him.

Social Life

He is not at all interested in partying or sports or fraternities, all of which are big in our flagship.

The main reason he applied to the LACs was his feeling that it would be much easier to find a sense of community at one. He’s taken classes at the state flagship for a few years and is not a great fan of the lecture courses, not because they make it difficult to learn, but because they make it difficult to meet classmates and professors. He says that lecture halls are sparsely filled and his classmates don’t talk in discussion sections. The collaborative bent of a LAC excites him greatly.

The populations of the three LACs seem to overlap somewhat. Macalester has been a little off-putting, because he’s not at all oriented towards social justice, and he’s not sure how the queer culture would affect dating and friendships for him as a straight asian male. He is still very interested in attending a school that is international and economically diverse, and Grinnell thus seems like it would be best in these two regards, though our flagship would obviously fit them even more. Our impression of Carleton is that it is wealthier and less international but also more intellectual (which he likes).

These are all really just assumptions, though. He would appreciate more opinions about the sorts of students who tend to fit in at each school.

He hasn’t visited any of these LACs, but he says that campus and location aren’t important to him.

Cost

Carleton would cost a little more than $90,000 per year. Macalester and Grinnell would cost a little less than $60,000 per year. Our flagship would cost a little less than $30,000 per year.

We are able to afford any of them, reasonably comfortably, but we want to feel “good” about this investment, whatever that means. Differences of $30,000 between schools are significant, especially when we’re not sure what precisely the extra money would be spent on.

My son is kind of torn between his options. He is really, really drawn to the community at a LAC, and loves how tight-knit they seem. But I sense that he often makes arguments for the state school on the basis that it is “good enough,” that he can still have a nice college experience there for a lot less money. For instance,

  • “Grinnell has an open curriculum, but the state school will take my AP credits so I anyways won’t have to take gen eds.”
  • “It’s hard to make friends during classes at the state school, but I also wasn’t living in the dorms, and besides a lot of my high school friends would be there too.”

etc. It feels like he is trying to talk himself into going to the state school only because it is so much cheaper, when we are lucky to be able to pay for any of these excellent colleges. I am happy for him to go to the state school, but I don’t want him to feel like he’s settling. I want him to be enthusiastic about his choice. Right now the sentiment seems to be “there’s no frontrunner, so why not just choose the cheapest?”.

So what are the great things about each of these LACs, for a student like him hoping to study math and make friends who are passionate about academics? Is there one among these that stands out given the type of social and academic experience that he’s seeking? Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences to share? Or is anyone in a similar position? Thanks for all advice!

It’s tough to compare the LACs to an unnamed state flagship. Suffice it to say, I am sure there are serious, non-partying students there who are focused on their academics at the state flagship. Upper level classes will likely be smaller than the DE ones he has taken in HS. You can look at their course catalog/registration portal to check class size.

Another point…there will be a higher proportion of athletes at the LACs than at the state school. I expect the varsity athletes are about 30% of the enrolled students at the LACs, but that’s easy for you to look up. And many students are involved in club and/or intramural sports. That doesn’t mean the school spirit is as intense as the state flagship, but just something to think about. In a smaller community, would he support his friends/dorm-mates at their sporting events, for example?

Of the LACs, it sounds like Carleton might be the best fit academically in terms of math offerings. Does he have an opinion of their trimester system?

Likely significant impact on ‘dating’, IMO. Macalester does not seem like a good social fit for him.

In other words, he will start in junior and senior level math courses. These are usually much smaller than the large frosh and soph level courses shared with other majors. It looks like you and he have done some checking of the course offerings; has he looked closely enough to see if each has enough upper level math courses for him? (Your post hints that Grinnell in particular is most likely to be inadequate.)

Has he taken a proof and theory intensive math course? Many upper level math courses are proof and theory intensive, unlike frosh and soph level math courses (though honors frosh and soph level math courses often are).

3 Likes

Has he had exposure to some of the “inter-disciplinary but math intensive” fields?

For example- Poli Sci, Psych (called Cog Sci), Linguistics at places like MIT? Econ virtually everywhere (there are “math lite” curricula and “math intensive” tracks with a lot of econometrics). Urban planning, Epidemiology, Actuary…. etc.

If he loves math but isn’t the passionate “24/7/365” type kid who gravitates towards the highly theoretical math tracks– I’m thinking that a math-reliant field may be where his passions lie. And that might tip the scales a bit in his thinking…. primarily because these fields tend to be highly employable with a math-focused person, so the “ROI” becomes less relevant. And the intellectual and social fit may be more important in his head as a result…..

1 Like

The mystery, unnamed state public university seems to be the best fit for your son based on his academic needs.

The most visable aspects of a large public university are not inclusive of many activities unrelated to a sports & partying culture; this means that your son will find his crowd at the large public flagship.

Curious why the public flagship is not named in your thread.

5 Likes

Everybody knows that I’m a big proponent of LACs. However, not for any extra $120,000 or $240,000.

It also depends on the Flagship. Since you are looking at three LACs in the Midwest, and considering where they are, my assumption is that your flagship is one of the Midwestern flagships (UMN, Wisconsin, UIUC, Michigan, Indiana, or Iowa).

All of these flagships have world class programs in both art history and math, and would be the reasonable choice. Well, unless your family is wealthy enough that an extra $240,000 is not a problem, in which case Carleton becomes a serious contender, since it has a top-notch math program.

9 Likes

Will you support his Masters degree financially? If not, would you if he went to the state school?

I don’t think a state school is most limiting socially. If anything, it’s likely the best odds to find community.

No matter where kids go - there are cliques and other things. If you find a group, then great. And if you don’t find a group - then what? You’re in a small space.

At the same time, you can be at a school with greek life and sports - and there’s still a contingent that isn’t into that.

I’m not saying to choose the public - but I think the assessment is off. I think there’s more risk at an LAC but truth is - when you step foot on campus, you just don’t know - and then day one, you have a roommate. What if you don’t jive? That can happen anywhere - or the food in the dorm isn’t good or you don’t like your prof.

So I think both set ups have positives - some students are shy and find it easier to relate with professors at smaller schools.

Many public flagships are strong in math - Maryland, Wisconsin and so many more - and these schools all have Profs with PhDs - so he’s going to get a great math education no matter.

If the student is Asian, per CDS, Mac is just under half white and 8% Asian. Carleton is just over half white and 11% Asian. Grinnell is under half white and just under 10% Asian.

To me, academics are most important so if you say Grinnell has meager offerings, I wouldn’t look further toward anything else. At the same time

Additionally, Grinnell has an Art History major but not minor while Mac and Carleton have both majors and minors.

Also, Carleton is on 3 terms a year vs. Grinnell and Mac that are on semesters (two terms a year). Does that matter?

If you can afford them all, I’d disagree. Mac is in society. Grinnell isn’t and Carleton is somewhere in between. If you can afford these, you can go visit these. My kids said the same - and after some visits, ended up not applying to some - or schools accepted to came right off the last after the visit.

Finally, if you look at PhD feeders (he’s not there but just to show strength), per Capita Carleton is 9th, Grinnell right with them at 11th. Mac is not top 50 but that doesn’t meet they can’t fulfill your son’s need. The biggest in volume - large publics - UCs, U Mich, UMN, UT, UIUC, Stony Brook, UNC, etc.

Good luck.

2 Likes

With regard to the worry that the LACs might not offer enough courses for him, one way to address this would be to plan to take a semester abroad at a college which offer advanced math offerings. Some place like Cambridge might present such an opportunity. The semester abroad could offer an opportunity to have some in depth exposure to more art history than he would experience here.

Private colleges are expensive, so they are always going to have a preponderance of wealthier students. It’s just a matter of degree. Even when an LAC is more economically diverse, there is still a gulf between the wealthy and the “have nots”. One such student explained it to me this way, “When they were all talking about where to go on spring break, I was trying to figure out how to get more hours just to make extra money.” The state flagship will have the greatest economic diversity.

While he would like a college with an international community, this is a tough time to make a college decision based on that. The number of international students is dwindling and the unpredictability of government policies and actions makes it hard to use the current international enrollment as a reliable predictor of what the international enrollment will be over the next several years.

Carleton sounds like the place where he will find more of what he is looking for than any of the other choices. The cost is what the cost is. You’ll have to figure that one out.

2 Likes

How realistic is this? What do they require to accept someone for a semester abroad in maths?

1 Like

This could be significant, because many varsity athletes spend a large percentage of their out-of-class time on their sports (and related activities) and with other team members.

The midwest flagships seem to have about 11-25% of undergraduates in fraternities and sororities. Of course, 11-25% of a state flagship can be a larger population than an entire LAC, but that means that the other 75-89% makes up a population 3-8 times larger.

3 Likes

Study abroad can be a useful enhancement to one’s college education and experience, but changing it from a nice optional enhancement to something required due to insufficient offerings at one’s home college might not be a desirable thing.

6 Likes

Given Grinnell and Mac are placing high in PhD per capita, one would assume strong offerings.

Many math students seem to gravitate to Budapest for study abroad. Of course, with this students interest in art history, that opens things up widely.

1 Like

Deciding whether the difference experience of an LAC versus a large public is worth $N is an intensely personal decision for a student and their family. There isn’t that much help we can give you in making that decision.

My only real thought, as I was reading what you were writing, was that overall Grinnell really stood out to me as MOSTLY hitting the sweet spot. At least one of the two less expensive LACs, academicky without necessarily being quite as intense as Carleton, strong community without being quite as social justice oriented as Macalester, relatively open/flexible curriculum . . . basically seemed like a good fit.

So the one concern seems to be the advanced Math curriculum. As an interesting data point, in College Transitions’ PhD feeders study, Grinnell was actually #11 for Math (ahead of many more famous research universities). Carleton was #9, and Macalester did not make the top 50 in this category.

You might want to investigate this further, but I see Grinnell’s formalized Math sequence does seem to sort of thin out and basically cut off at the 300 level. However, they then have a Senior Seminar class each spring, and that includes this intriguing description:

Advanced course with varying content. Strongly recommended for students considering further work in mathematics and statistics. May be repeated for credit when content changes.

It also has a note about a Plus-2 Option being available. That’s a reference to a component of their Individual Study program:

A Plus-2 is course-related independent individual study option work option referred to as the “Plus-2” that permits a student to add 2 credits to a regular course by choosing an independent study component of that course. The Plus-2 provides opportunities for more extensive work in some aspect of a course: more substantial exploration of the general literature of a course, additional studio or laboratory activity, or other corollary work.

Grinnell as described there also has a broad Independent Study option, as well as Directed Research, and what they call Mentored Advanced Projects. Some on the last of those:

Mentored Advanced Projects

At the time of declaring a major, students submit a comprehensive plan that lists the coursework they have completed and outlines a plan for the remaining semesters of study. At this time, it is appropriate for interested students to discuss with their advisers how a Mentored Advanced Project (MAP) might help shape their program by culminating a sequence of academic work.

Mentored Advanced Projects provide a chance to work closely with a faculty member on scholarly research or creative production. A MAP can be the capstone of the academic major or a concentration, or it can culminate a separate sequence not recognized as a formal program. In many fields, MAPs are connected with the faculty member’s scholarship and may contribute to ongoing faculty research.

I’m raising all this because I would guess that these are all options particularly advanced, grad-school bound Math students might use at Grinnell. Rather than just go through some formalized advanced sequence, once they have exhausted what they can do with the formalized classes, they could work out a highly individualized plan of advanced study/research with specific faculty members.

Again, I would not rely on that speculation, of course. But if this is the one big issue with Grinnell, I would try to make sure to talk to someone in Math at Grinnell first, and discuss these concerns. Maybe a current student, maybe faculty, or so on. But they might be able to explain exactly how Grinnell manages to support Math students on such paths.

5 Likes

This is a sample list of NCAA athlete percentages at some “top” colleges:

LACs do tend to be quite high by university standards, with many of the highest being NESCAC LACs in particular.

Carleton is lower than a typical NESCAC at 21%, although I feel like this should have a note explaining that Ultimate is not an NCAA sport (feel free to ask why Carleton in particular needs this note). Grinnell is at 31%, which is not up there with the highest NESCAC percentages, but not too far off either. That puts them in the same range as, say, Swarthmore at 29%, which makes sense to me.

Sample of one - good friend’s son thrived at Grinnell as a math major (he sounds a lot like your son) and went on to Harvard for a PHD in stats with a focus on data science. Grinnell was a big supporter in the process and helping him work through his offers. He is a very bright young adult and was very involved on Grinnell’s campus.

5 Likes

Absolutely you need to take your son to visit, if you haven’t already! If you can afford tuition at these, hopefully you can swing a handful of last-minute trips to help him make his decision. D26 and I visited both Mac and Carleton and I felt like both were places that straight guys could fit in. Both had very welcoming atmospheres, but they did feel very different. You could ask if students at Mac can take upper level math at UofM, if your child hits the top end of their math offerings- that might be a possibility. Grinnell obviously wouldn’t have such opportunities, as it’s fairly isolated. If you can tell us what your state flagship is, that will give us better perspective on comparing his options.

5 Likes

Yes, this is realistic. It was suggested to me by a Math PhD who did it himself as an undergrad.

1 Like

Realistic as in “it’s possible to do” or realistic as in “this is what the person needs to be accepted and the bar is not that high”?
It’s one of the top maths departments in the world. I imagine they have some sort of selection process for who gets to attend during a semester abroad.

2 Likes

Cambridge presents some hurdles that are not present at some other places. It’s the idea of studying advanced math abroad that is realistic.

1 Like

Agree.