How would you contrast these two schools for economics majors? Similarly, how would you contrast their alumni networks and alumni engagement for post-graduate career opportunities?
On a list ranking the LACs in this area (frequently cited here on CC and the only one of which Iâm aware) based on academic publication production, Haverford ranks #21, Carleton #31. https://ideas.repec.org/top/top.uslacecon.html
Youâd typically find Carleton ranked higher overall in the LAC rankings, not infrequently in the T10, but these are peer institutions so I personally would not make a decision even partially on that basis.
I canât really say much about either alumni network or relative alumni engagement. But one thing that may be relevant is location. Haverford is just outside Philadelphia and is in the mid-atlantic region of the country. Carleton is in Northfield, MN. If I had to guess, there are probably more plentiful internship opportunities near Haverford.
Visit both. They are close enough on the merits (in terms of Econ and overall) such that it probably makes the most sense to just go with the one at which youâd be most happy with location and fit. My kids would not consider anything in the upper mid-west. The Main Line area of Philly is beautiful and, IMO, ideal in many respects. Iâve not been to Northfield, but people seem to like it. There are better places than Philly for winter weather, but Iâd take it over anything in Minnesota absent a compelling reason to do otherwise.
You may want to consider the math level in economics courses and major at each school, and what upper level economics topics are offered as courses at each school.
1 Like
Both schools are great. I would guess that Haverford has more alumni connections in the NE and Carleton more in Chicago/Minneapolis, but Iâm sure both have successful alumni everywhere.
I agree with the previous poster that you should go visit if you can. Iâd take Minnesota over the NE but you may not.
4 Likes
Based on faculty publishing in economics, this analysis, as also posted above, ranks Haverford 21st and Carleton 31st in their category: Economics rankings: US Economics Departments at Liberal Arts Colleges | IDEAS/RePEc. This suggests that these schools place in the same tier for the study of economics, in my opinion.
My understanding is both have very supportive alums. Sp Iâd personally pick based on what your ideal four-year experience would be like, maybe after visiting.
Since that is not a fun answer, Carleton actually has some really fun visuals. Like you can play with this Pathways tool and see what sorts of careers different majors ended up in. Not surprisingly, a lot of Econ majors go into Business/Finance:
Another fun one is this mapping project, which among other things was showing how things have somewhat shifted over time in terms of where Carls come from and where they go:
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/5f94db9eb23742a99431ca00e3184ef6
So in the one slider bar map which compares destinations in 1970-79 and 2010-19, Minneapolis/St Paul and Chicago remain top hot spots (not a surprise, and by the way, the Twin Cities are great), but you can see how more Carls are shifting out to the BoWash Corridor, California and the Pacific Northwest, Denver, Houston, Miami, and so on.
There is another set of maps for Internationals which is also very interesting.
None of this is meant to resolve the comparison with HaverfordâI am sure it also places kids all over, is taking in kids from all over, and so on. I just think it is cool to see.
6 Likes
For students using âeconomicsâ as a proxy for âbanking and finance post gradâ, Haverford probably edges out Carleton by virtue of proximity to NYC. Easier to do in-person events/internships, better known in that grography, more alums in the area, etc.
If itâs genuinely about a course of study, you may want to figure out where you think youâd be happier for 4 years. The academic calendar may or may not matter, the courses available and distribution requirements may differ, different study abroad opportunities might be approved at each.
Rarely is there a âbetterâ. Just âbetter for youâ.
1 Like
Thank you all! We plan to visit both in October.
2 Likes
Just to provide some data, Haverford also reports graduate outcomes, including by major (although not with as many interactive visualizations):
22% of Fords generally ended up in Business and Finance, versus 19.3% of Carls in Business/Finance/Sales. For Econ majors specifically, it is 60% of Fords, 58% of Carls.
That is not quite apples to oranges for a variety of reasons, and my guess is the gap would be a bit bigger if it was all completely adjusted for.
But perhaps not surprisingly, a lot of Econ majors do in fact go into Business and Finance.
And Carleton occupies a somewhat interesting positioning in the Upper Midwest/Great Lakesâgoing back for a very long time now, it has had a reputation of being the âbestâ LAC in that region. As those visualizations show, it has long placed a lot of alums in the Twin Cities, but it is also very much a sort of Chicago orbit college too.
So I think despite the lack of physical proximity to Chicago in the same sense as Haverford to NYC, Carleton is to Chicago sort of like prominent rural New England/Upstate New York LACs are to Boston and NYC.
In other words, for academicky kids, Haverford is a good Eastern comparison, but for businessy kidsâMiddlebury? Something like that.
And obviously Boston and NYC add up to a lot more business and finance jobs, but there is also WAAAAAY more highly-regarded LAC competition in or close to those cities.
4 Likes
I think looking at faculty research is always a worthwhile endeavor when learning about schools, and RePEc (linked to above) is certainly an interesting resource. If considering these schools and skimming through faculty research, I imagine thereâs at least some interest in attending grad school. I think thereâs more direct data on grad school matriculation, and I will return to that in a bit. But itâs wise for a prospective student to be wondering where are they more likely to get some research experience. Of course most undergrad research doesnât lead to a publication, but it can, and either way faculty on campus doing research and publishing can be quite helpful for those seeking grad school entry, particularly when they involve undergrads in their research, as is often the case at LACs due to the lack of grad students.
The RePEc ranks mentioned earlier in the thread use RePEc data consisting of both registered authors and declared work (papers, books, chapters, etc). In short, their data is a bit messy. They have six Econ faculty listed for Haverford, but only two appear to still be there. Moreover, one has to go back 10 years to see something captured by RePEc for either of those two faculty members. To be clear, I am sure Haverfordâs excellent faculty have published in the last nine years, but the work used for the RePEc ranking was either done by faculty who have left or is 10+ years old. In contrast, Carleton has eight listed faculty still at the institution, and there are by my count 35 captured publications of various sorts in the last nine years (to Haverfordâs zero.) As with Haverford, I am sure this does not represent all their Econ faculty or even all the publications of the registered faculty. As an example, Nathan Graweâs work on the future demographics of higher ed which received a fair amount of national media coverage isnât even in the RePEc inventory.
Perhaps less noisy data on relative strengths of Econ depts (at least for those considering grad school) comes from the NSFâs survey of earned doctorates. Various online sites have poured over the raw data and made attempts to present it in consumer-friendly format. One such site is College Transitions which has a couple tables for undergrad origins of Econ PhDs, one (on the left on my device) for raw counts, and one normalized for institution size to convey rate information. From the latter, one can see both Carleton and Haverford do exceptionally well at producing future PhD earners, ranking 13th and 19th respectively. Note these ranks include all institutions, not just LACs, though most (14) in the top 20 are in fact LACs.
As a fun side note, both Haverford and Carleton were mentioned at various places in the 2006 study out of Vanderbilt that stated PhD students who had attended LACs for undergrad study finished Econ doctorate programs an academic year faster than those attending universities for undergrad study. From the discussion on p18: âApplicants from Swarthmore, Williams, or Carleton, therefore, might be viewed appropriately as likely âless expensiveâ Ph. D. students than those with a bachelorâs degree from Harvard, Berkeley, or Stanford.â A conclusive explanation for the differences appears beyond the scope of the paper, but there are brief mentions of the LAC students writing double the number of term papers, having higher verbal GRE scores, being more likely to have published, getting more attention from professors, and being more likely to have come from an academic family than their university peers.
Regarding alumni engagement, thatâs a bit harder to measure objectively, but I think some proxies might be alumni giving and alumni weekend attendance. It seems reasonable to think alumni giving to college and going back to reunion events are more involved with other forms of networking with the college. USNWR used to report alumni giving rates each year. I donât think theyâve done that this year yet, but hereâs a list of high giving rate schools from last Dec spanning both LACs and universities. According to them, Carleton had the sixth highest rate. I recall Haverford also doing well in the past, but it doesnât appear they made the top 15 last year, which is as far as this particular list goes.
From what Iâve heard and seen (based on casual spot checks of various collegeâs alumni weekend reports in the past), Carleton has an unusually high percentage of attendees at such functions, larger than the other schools I manually checked and in some cases more than schools several times its size. I donât know about Haverfordâs turnouts.
I think youâll/heâll know when you visit. Two different schools including the locations. At Carlton one can cross register with St. Olaf, while at Haverford you can do that at BMC and Penn. Haverford is a lot more sporty with tons of soccer and lacrosse fields.
Does he want it to be really really cold (but a dry cold) for several months of the year or be not quite so cold but damp a good deal of the winter? Both school have beautiful, picturesque falls with colorful leaves like in the brochures. Both are close enough to a large city to be able to fly there, to get to professional sports and concerts, to attend events at other schools.
This topic was automatically closed 180 days after the last reply. If youâd like to reply, please flag the thread for moderator attention.