Carnegie Mellon vs Syracuse for architecture

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I just got accepted into both the Syracuse and Carnegie Mellon for B.Arch, but I’m struggling to find which is better for me. What I prefer about Carnegie Mellon is that it’s in a bigger city and its more prestigious, but I’ve heard anecdotally that the architecture program at Syracuse is better. But what worries me about Syracuse is that the program is not as good as it’s made out to be, and I’ve heard that the student culture is stuck-up and preppy.

I’ve been trying to find student work for Carnegie Mellon, but I can hardly seem to find any, and Syracuse is a lot more public about student work.

If y’all could help me find out wich program is better or direct me to resources that could help me make my decision I would be very greatful.

2

Maybe ask each to speak with a student ambassador so you can ask your questions to someone directly.

As an SU alum, I know the program is well reputed but not much more.

Good luck.

3

Two good choices.

I don’t have insider information on either, but I would say say that Syracuse’s strongest point is its relationship with powerful firms in New York and throughout the northeast. While CMU has been a forerunner in promoting the expanding role of digital technology in architecture.

Have you visited both? Are they both affordable for you?

I’d suggest that you do a search (and post your own questions) on Archinect’s Forum.

4

I’m visiting them soon, and Syracuse would be much cheaper for me to attend since they offered me a hefty scholarship, but I could pay for both (in theory). I’ll be sure to ask more questions on the Architect’s forum

5

Then go to SU - especially if it’s significant.

There are architects from many ranges of school - I don’t think it’s that important - the level of school and SU is known as one of the top architecture programs.

Ask on the forum - of course - but I think you’d be fine there - and if you end up wanting to change majors (architects do drop out as it’s hard) - SU gives you more flexibility to study something else…they have more things!!

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Archinect (with an “n”) is a separate website specializing in architecture

What is the total cost of each for 5 years? Can your family afford both?

7

When you visit, I would make sure to let the admissions office know that you want to speak with individuals who are in architecture (students and a prof). Sit in on a class or two. Hang out in the design studio and check out the vibe there. Ask for outcomes of the B. Arch grads.

The “in theory” part makes me wary as to whether CMU really is affordable. But if both are truly affordable, one factor that you may want to talk to your family about is the savings in the costs of Syracuse vs. CMU. See if your family would be willing to split or give you the difference later on if you were wanting to use it as a down payment or to help start your own firm, or… Architecture is not exactly a super lucrative profession for most, so having some hefty savings from a lower cost undergrad could be very valuable, if your family was amenable to the idea.

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8

My dad’s dream had always been to go to college in a high ranked college in the US (I’m an international student) so he wants me to be able to live that dream. And so he says that I shouldn’t make the decision based on money, and he’ll find a way to pay for it. So I’m trying to base my decision just on which school has a better program so I can be honest with him about what I want.

9

Why don’t you ask for career outcomes from each.

Rankings don’t always conflate with better job outcomes or higher salaries.

They are there to sell publications, etc.

And you can always find ranks to meet whatever need. For example, your dad would not say - Virigina Tech over CMU - but it’s #1 in many publications.

And here’s two examples where Syracuse is ranked higher. And I only looked at two.

Dig deeper than rank.

What matters?

Costs? Curriculums? Environment? Outcomes? What else?

I get your dad’s perspective - but you’re going - and there’s college rank - and there’s major rank, etc. Up to you how to choose but I will disagree with your dad here.

The Top 10 Undergraduate Architecture Schools in the U.S. | Architect Magazine

Best Schools for Architecture 2023-2024 | PPI Kaplan (ppi2pass.com)

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10

Thank you for being so honest. I got a little caught up in the romantic view of college. Average starting salary for CMU architecture grads is $78,888, and Syracuse is $61,577. As well as that CMU students pass the Architecture Licensure exam at a rate of 70% and Syracuse students at 58%. It looks like CMU has the stronger program/reputation. I’m visiting the campuses soon so Syracuse will really have to impress me to convince me it’s better.

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Fair enough - but also look where they are placing.

So others will know better - because there are different levels of architecture - right - like four and five year.

I’m on the CMU career dashboard for 2023 under architecture. 1 student is working, 57% more education (4 students), 2 still seeking. They have 7 of 11 students reporting - so either their program is extremely small or they are categorized under something else. They do not show a starting salary. If I go to the other degree- Architecture and Building Sciences/Technology - 5 are working, 6 continuing education, and 4 are seeking jobs - 15 of 22 graduates reported.

btw - for a Masters at CMU - in the 2nd major they do show a salary - the Architecture and Building Sciences Technology - of $61,314. They don’t show a Masters of Architecture.

OK - I did add heft by adding two more years (2021-23 and yes it’s 73K on average but $65K median - but again, it’s off of only 17 students - and look at the locations - hence the higher average. three in Seattle, four in SF, two in LA, three in Boston, 11 in NY, etc.

So they have 47 reported in the set working but only 17 gave them salaries (so the other 30 are likely lower) - and look where the jobs are. So I’m not sure your basis for analysis wins out if you’re trying to say their grads make more (adjusted for where). I suppose you’d to compare the cities where SU grads land.

Here are more current SU stats from their website - which shows a bigger program and almost everyone participating in providing data - which means something too vs. when someone doesn’t.

Maybe i’m missing an education step or on a wrong major - but based on what I see - SU wins hands down and it’s not close - unless you want a super small program - but again maybe I’m missing something - and it’s not apples to apples.

The good news is you are going to visit - so hopefully you’ll feel CMU or you won’t. As you know, many jobs / most jobs pay the same to grads no matter where they go to school - but pay scales are often location dependent. Good luck.

Results reflect information on 120 of 123 undergraduate degree recipients, representing a 98% knowledge rate.

Outcomes Breakdown

  • 70% employed
  • 21% continuing education
  • 5% not seeking employment
  • 2% still seeking employment

Featured Employers

  • Ballinger
  • CallisonRTKL
  • Corgan
  • CosciaMoos Architecture
  • E4H Environments for Health Architecture
  • Easton Architects
  • Elkus Manfredi Architects
  • Gensler
  • GWWO
  • Hart Howerton
  • HDR
  • HKS
  • HOK
  • Perkins&Will
  • Perkins Eastman
  • Robert A.M. Stern Architects , LLP
  • Selldorf Architects
  • SmithGroup
  • Workshop/APD
  • ZGF Architects

Average Starting Salary: $61,577

First Destination (Post Graduation) Outcomes - Career & Professional Development Center - Student Affairs - Carnegie Mellon University (cmu.edu)

Student Outcomes – Career Services Syracuse University

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The data I found on SU and CMU where from 2022. I couldn’t find much on 2023 for both schools so I felt like 2022 data would be more accurate. And anyway, both school’s aveage salary for 5 year B.Arch tends to go up year to year, so I don’t think data from 2 years ago is too bad.

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I gave you the links - so you can look at CMU the last five years. The CMU link takes you to their career dashboard which is good. I looked at 23 but had to add more to get good data so I added 21 and 22.

Re read my notes - they have very few reporting - and their salaries are using are reported from expensive cities (Seattle, SF, LA, Boston, NY) and only 17 of 47 from the last three years that reported jobs - gave them salaries. So yes, I’m working - no, I won’t tell you my salary. Probably a good reason for that.

As I said - when you go, look deeper into the data - but that you are going, you’ll see if you like it. It seems - but you’ll find out - it’s a small program with most continuing school vs. working.

Good luck.

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14

Thank you for your help!

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15

Best of luck on your visit. It was 30+ years ago so maybe it’s different - but the architecture students all worked really hard, all nighters - and it was crazy.

I’m an SU grad but I’m more a value guy - and SU, at least in what I see is.

My point with the first statement - look past data schools provide to make themselves look good.

You will be somewhere for four years - day after day and I assume today it’s still a brutal academic path - and frankly, the salaries lower than I thought.

Given the intensity, choose the right fit - where you can see yourself vs. where dad thinks is more elite.

I’m not exposed to architecture but I assume it’s like engineering - where a Western Michigan and Michigan grad work side by side, at the same salary (assuming the same employer).

So - really choose that one that fits you most comfortably.

I look forward to hearing how your CMU visit goes.

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Those figures look a bit high for an entry level BArch, from either school. Would you mind quoting your source?

Salaries vary widely by location and firm, but I would expect a fresh BArch grad to pull down between $50-60K. Bear in mind that you’re not officially an “architect” until you’re licensed. The licensing process in the US can take a a few years. Before that, you’re a “designer.”

Graduates from both schools become successful architects. Architecture isn’t a get rich quick career, but it’s fulfilling and financially comfortable.

The job you land after getting your BArch depends a lot on what you do during your 5 years of undergraduate school: the internships you secure, the connections you make among professors, critics, and visiting instructors. Architecture firms tend to hire from the same schools that their partners and senior staff attended. The alumni/ae network is important.

The BArch overall has a high drop out rate. Consequently the schools want to make sure that prospective students understand what they’re getting into. So take advantage of any and all opportunities to ask questions when you’re on campus.

The BArch can also be a stressful environment, especially the studio critiques and defense. Hopefully your comfort level during your visit will give you an indication of which would be a better fit for you.

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I put current info above - a link to the CMU job board which has limited responses - and then a link to SU outcomes - with many more responses.

The CMU salary is from 17 people (of 47 that reported so many didn’t report salary) and in high wage locations.

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18

I don’t doubt that you were able to find that information on the internet, but I do doubt that nearly $80,000 is a realistic entry level salary for a freshly minted, unlicensed BArch.

Possibly for one of CMU’s interdisciplinary degrees, like their MArch + engineering + building management. Or a tangent into building information technology, which is a highly paid field.

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19

First off - congratulations to you - you have two very fine options in front of you.

S23 and I visited CMU and Syracuse back to back in the Spring of '22. My son had been set on Architecture as a career path for at least a year at that point so we went in specifically looking at the BArch programs. The programs and schools are quite different. But because they both get accredited by NAAB, the core of the program (at any BArch school) is going to look much the same. CMU, prior to our visits, was my son’s “I want to go there” school - for reasons I was never able to fully draw out of him. People make a lot about the cold weather/snow at Syracuse - not a factor for him since we’re from the northeast.

The CMU program is much smaller than Syracuse. I can’t remember exactly but I seem to recall it’s less than 1/2 the size. The architecture program shares space in the Fine Arts building with the music program/theatre. The program has a slightly more engineering/technical bend to it than Syracuse which is slightly more art/design. You mention the idea that Syracuse is potentially stuck-up/preppy. I didn’t notice it per-se but my son said that’s the exact impression he had after visiting CMU.

Syracuse’s program is one of the larger ones out there (enrollment), has a dedicated building that includes a cafe and supply shop. They also seemed to have a much more structured study abroad program.

If you’re visiting campus take both the general admissions (or accepted student) tours and reach out to the Architecture programs directly as they have their own presentation schedule. At least when we did it the presentations were done by staff members and then students walked you through the building/space, showed current projects and answered questions . “Sitting in on a class” is not likely terribly helpful since the core of a BArch program is studio time where you work on whatever the current project is.

As an intended BArch student don’t get too caught up in the dialogue around all the other stuff (clubs, organizations, etc) the school has to offer. You might have time for one other item than the architecture curriculum but that’s likely to be it.

I wouldn’t get too caught up in ARE pass rates. The BArch programs aren’t necessarily structured towards preparing you for those. That will get addressed when you work for a firm and work your hours/programs there.

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Last night I browsed around Archinect for a bit. I will say that the users there all seemed to give the same answer whenever somebody asked for a comparison of architecture acceptances: go to the least expensive accredited school that you can.

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