Cello dual degree at Northwestern?

Hi!

High school student considering applying to Northwestern here. Just a quick question for anyone who knows current or past music students at Bienen - I’ve been told by some people that a dual degree specifically with cello at Northwestern is basically impossible/no one tries it, so I was just wondering if any of y’all happen to know a student at Northwestern who’s doing a dual degree with cello and anything (engineering is what I’m thinking about though)? I know some viola and violin people but haven’t heard of any cello students yet so if there’s actually no one doing it maybe there’s a reason…

Yeah that’s it, thanks! Please let me know!

I don’t know the student, just know of a bienen student cellist enrolled as dual degree. They exist. I remember there’s only one cello professor in bienen, so the studio won’t be big.
Maybe you can contact bienen or the cello studio directly to ask about the potential?

I know of one very talented, hardworking dual degree in cello and something else at Bienen. Not able to double degree in four years. Seems like the person is alternating between areas of study, basically. I would think any student of Jensen’s would have to be fully committed, and he’s the teacher to get there.

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Is it allowed to double degree there? Yes. Can you in theory do cello performance and another subject? Yes. Do I recommend it?No, especially not with engineering. Jansen is a noted cello teacher but he also is demanding, he is going to want 180% out of you, I can guarantee that, from people I know who have studied with him. Engineering is also a time hog, and I honestly can’t see how a student could have the time to dedicate to what Jansen is going to want and with the demands of Engineering (and honestly, I think any dual degree is going to be difficult).

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Dual degree is hard but not impossible. The dual degree student I know of is doing ok. Not the best cellist but meeting expectations. Some people really are capable of pulling off tasks 99.9% of people cannot.

Be aware that in high school you will be encouraged and applauded for doing many things. Music, STEM, sports, debate etc. The more the better.

College is different. Some schools are known for supporting dual degrees. But even within those schools not all teachers are supportive. Note that I know nothing about this teacher. But you have to realize these teachers are trying to pick the best in hopes that they will have a professional career (which takes talent but also TIME to develop)…which enhances the teacher’s image. Why would a teacher want to work with a student who will give 50% of his time to music when he could select a student who wants to give 100%? It’s not high school anymore…where it is truly all about you. College is a different game.

My D did a BS in music. She made it clear in her audition that she had other interests (which is the right things to do…but can make some teachers pass on you). One time when my D was down on herself, her teacher made a comment about…I didn’t have to pick a BS student…I could have just picked BM students….but I saw something in you…. My D never realized her teacher had an opinion on it until then.

I would suggest thinking hard about your goals over the next year or so. It’s fine to do a dual degree (however engineering is going to be hard). Still all is do-able…but you do need to understand that splitting your interest may eliminate certain teachers and/or schools.

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I was a 5yr Double-Degree student at NU in the 90’s. My degrees are: BM Vocal Performance and BS Computer Engineering. I will say…it’s really tough, not just academically but mentally. I’m not the best student and have ADHD. I finished, not super-proud of my GPA while there but I did get both degrees (although it did take an extra quarter).

At the time, I was only the 5th person to complete the program, but that was 25yrs ago. I’m sure they’ve learned more about how to best manage it and enough history to tell you when you shouldn’t really do it. There were other students doing the program with me at the time and most wound up dropping one of the majors. There is zero overlap between music and engineering, so it’s a LOT of classes. You take like 6 units a quarter, when everyone else is taking 4.

I imagine that the cello prof is not super-eager to have a student’s focus divided and that’s why they don’t recommend it. Voice wasn’t too bad, not a ton of pressure. But also, I imagine everything is a bit more stressful there nowadays.

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I would imagine that VP may be a bit more do-able as there are limits to the amount of practice time for the voice. My D always said the instrumentalist spend a lot more time practicing their instruments…and that’s the expectation. Plus you need to do ensembles…which can conflict with other classes. My D was encouraged to be done with all classes by 3 pm so she would be available for “required” rehearsals. Performing (in groups) was part of the degree requirement (mainly late afternoon to evening). I think some schools/teachers support students more in this areas. But it definitely needs to be understood.

Due to the fact that there are so many musical disciplines….and truly every individual is different…it’s hard to give advice…besides a general explanation of 1.) dual degrees are difficult time-wise considering the requirements of both degrees and 2.) not all schools/teachers are excited for students to split their interest. So you need to check on that.

Anyone interested in dual degrees will need to look closely at the requirements of both degrees and the schools support for it. Again it’s do-able but you need to figure out how (support from administration to assure you get the classes at the right times) so you don’t feel overwhelmed in your studies.

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As others have pointed out, every area of music is different so there are no general rules like “you can’t do dual degree with music”. String instruments for example allow a lot more practice time with individual practice and rehearsal physically, you cannot play that much if you are a wind instrument and from what little I know of vocal music there are limits. So cello or violin allows more practice time, which would cut into time for the academic degree a lot likely (and that doesn’t count ensembles and rehearsal for that).

And herein lies the rub, and that is you may be able to get a dual degree with cello performance and engineering (despite what is often said, they generally don’t kick under performing students out of a BM degree program), but will the degree further what your goals are? And with the engineering degree, that coming from a family of engineers I know how difficult it is, if you get by in your degree but your GPA is nothing to write home about, how will that affect your ability to be in the career, when GPA especially with first jobs is huge, or these days, in getting internships that are pretty much required. I know there are kids who could do both, be brilliant on the cello and do well in engineering, but it is going to be a constant fight for time, and there is such a thing as exhaustion.

@bridgenail had an interesting point, about will a cello teacher accept someone not able to put as much time into practice as they may want them to. It goes beyond that, I can tell you that in music studios teachers can and will segregate students into those they feel can make it in music, who have the desire and ability to make it, and those who are just getting by, and they generally won’t give their best effort to the kids just getting by (and as I wrote in an earlier post, I have some insight into Jansen, and he I am pretty sure would do that). Obviously, it also raises questions about why you want to get the BM degree. If it is for the challenge of it and because you love the cello but you aren’t planning to make a career in music, a dual degree may work where as other people pointed out you can have the cello, play it as an amateur or even do some gig work.

If you are thinking it is okay, I do the dual degree, then in grad school I can concentrate on the cello and perhaps have a career, the problem is when you audition for grad school at a program likely to further your wishes, you may find it tough sledding because competition in music for admittance is tough across the board, it is even more so in the cello world, because you will likely be behind those who could dedicate the time to it.

Therein lies one of the biggest ironies of the dual degree, it seems like a great hedge, where you come out with a music performance degree but also with perhaps a ‘useful’ degree (like CS, Engineering, Accounting, etc) if music turns out to be a non starter. I say ironic because doing the dual degree is kind of working against being able to make it in music as a profession, makes it so much more difficult IMO, for the reasons I stated.

I doesn’t mean a student shouldn’t attempt a dual degree, I am just saying that it may not do what the student (or parents) want it to do, that’s all.

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I have a kid that did music performance and a CS degree and graduated in both recently. That kid had that path in mind prior to applying so applied to double degree options and then some more off beat academic with music options too. Academically motivated, was interested in Northwestern, wasn’t likely to be financially doable for us.

Anyway, to make a very long story short, as you look at schools if you have the opportunity to ask faculty directly like at sample lessons about double degree and how many students in their studio are doing that, how it is balanced, etc. We found some faculty members very cold to the subject even at schools that advertised it as an option. Like my kid had one faculty member that said directly he didn’t accept double degree students into his studio and it was a horrible idea for a slew of reasons. While the previous info session waxed poetic about the option.

This was a high stat kid who had been taking music lessons since age 4, was well prepared. But finding a fit was a rougher road. BUT he was right, that was the right path for him, he did both at a great school and has zero regrets. The only regret was wasting time on applying and auditioning to schools that weren’t going to be a good fit for a kid pulled in 2 directions.

My kid graduated from a well regarded public university. We found many of those programs much more open and receptive to the double degree. Though, if you’re hoping for merit money, you need to consider if they’re offering 4 years of music merit but it will take you 5 years to graduate.

My younger kid is in another music program. She applied/auditioned as a straight performance student. Well her program allows a 2nd degree and stretching merit to 5 years, which we didn’t even know unitl after. She added another degree, though she is going to finish in 4 with a few summer classes and some loaded terms (came in with a good number of credits). And her 2nd degree is more music/performance adjacent. Good luck!

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definitely do this before the application round. trial lesson or summer festivals or master classes are all good opportunities to get more information. If it’s too hard to ask directly, find some current students in their studio and ask them.

I can think of a very good reason why a student would apply to dual degree - that is other than the fact that they really love both. In reality, some parents feel very uncertain about their children’s future as professional musician, more so when they don’t have professional musician in their family and friends circle. However, the students have fallen in love with music. For these kids, dual degree is a good option. They can continue their study in music while convincing their parents that they are keeping the door open for potential careers other than music. After a year or two into the dual degree mode of study, they may discover that they love music more than the other degree, or the other way around, or that they’re exhausted, then they can drop one, with no regret that they didn’t try their best to hold on to both.
Starting college with the intention of pursuing dual degree is not a commitment to both degrees. It is an option for the students to continue on both paths until it becomes very clear to them which one to choose. Bienen is doing a great job supporting dual degree students. By doing so they attract students with multiple talents and great work ethics. Whichever degree they drop later, it’s Northwestern’s gain to have them in their student body. U Michigan is also supportive to dual degree students. I know a cello student there working on dual degree, I believe the other degree is biology related because he intends to go to medical school. The medical orchestra at Northwestern is very attractive.

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OP, you already have a lot of insightful comments from the responses above, and you should consider them carefully.

A question you should ask yourself is - when you are 25 or so, do you want to be a musician with engineering knowledge, or do you want to be an engineer who plays music as a hobby? Also, if you were to pursue a graduate degree, would it be in music, or engineering?

From what I know, most dual degrees at Northwestern requires 5 years to complete. If your second degree happens to be non-engineering (say Communication or an Arts and Sciences major), then it would be easier to accomplish in 4 years - especially if you have racked up enough AP credits from high school, or if you decide to make up some ground by taking classes in the summer.

I pointed out Engineering because Bienen is quite a walk from Tech building, and juggling course schedules could be a challenge. We looked at this option very closely but decided against it. That said, it is much easier for kids in the School of Communication, or Arts and Sciences. Some Bienen students also do Media, Music Theatre, Sound Design etc. under School of Communication, as they are more related to music and physically clustered together.

You should also look into Johns Hopkins if you haven’t done so already. They have a robust cello program under Peabody School, with a possibility to pursue dual degrees at Krieger School of Arts & Sciences or the Whiting School of Engineering. However, note that it requires a shuttle ride between Peabody and other schools.

As other have suggested, you will have the most updated and relevant info by emailing the professors directly. Best of luck to you!

thanks so much everyone! i’ll probably move forward with some cold emails, campus visits and trial lessons, then.

if anyone else has insights to add, feel free to do so! me and some other people I know have found this discussion really helpful!

random thought - anyone know if Professor Jensen will be retiring in the next couple of years?

This is a question worth direct contact. Only he himself can answer, and even that can’t be certain. I’ve known of classical string professors who continue to teach until very advanced age.

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Alan Stepansky at Johns Hopkins is a lot younger than Jensen. I would strongly recommend that you reach out to both.

He only takes the kids he knows. So if you are serious about cello at Bienen, I would prioritize attending Meadowmount and making connection there. This was said to us by several professionals.

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I can concur with that. If you are thinking of studying with Jannsen at the very least try to get a sample lesson with him, he is definitely inclined to taking kids he knows. He also is a tough teacher.

I’d tell you to look at Shepherd School at Rice, they recently hired a new cello teacher who I have heard from a couple of people looks to be good. Only thing with Shepherd is I don’t believe they allow dual degrees, but I could be wrong.

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There is also U Michigan. They have an incredible teacher as well.

My understanding is that Richard Aaron, if that’s who you mean, has left the school.