Chance a Poli Sci girl for Princeton REA [NJ, 4.0 UW, 35ACT, <$25k]

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics

  • US domestic
  • State: NJ
  • Type of high school: average public school (~400 students per grade)
  • Other special factors: one parent didn’t go to school but I reside with both

Intended Major(s): Polisci w/ double minor in Philosophy and Korean (where offered). Aiming for a T14 law school.

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted GPA: 4.0/4.0
  • Weighted HS GPA: 6.0/6.0 (heavily inflated; means I got at least an 89.6% in all classes)
  • ACT/SAT Scores: 35, first time

HS Coursework

  • 13 APs: Euro (5), APUSH (5), Bio (4), Gov (5), Lang (4), Calc AB (4)
  • Senior year: Calc BC, Econ (Micro/Macro), Chem, World, Lit, Latin

Awards

  • 1st place in national essay contest and met SCOTUS justice
  • National Latin Exam perfect paper 2x, summa cum laude 1x
  • John Locke Essay Comp finalist (17% selection rate)
  • Student of the Month (nominated by teachers)
  • 3x course awards (chosen via teacher nomination and/or highest grade)

Extracurriculars

  • Congressional internship: 18hrs/wk, 3 months
    • Planned a resource fair for people affected by opioid crisis
  • Girls State: 4 days
    • 3 high-ranking positions (elected and appointed)
  • Policy debate team (regional league): 4 years
    • Varsity captain
    • Best JV speaker award
  • Viola: 4 years
    • Principal violist of youth orchestra and summer camp for 3 years
    • Accepted into regional honors orchestra
  • Shadowed federal judge for 3 days
  • Work at family business: 8hrs/wk, 7 yrs
  • Photography: 5 yrs
    • 1.6 million photo views on google maps
    • Featured in school photo show 2x and at a photo lab in the city
  • Founding a local history club at my school this year at the request of my history teacher

LORs

  • History teacher/Debate coach: 11/10, we’ve had a close relationship all 4 years. Said I’m one of the most impressive students he’s taught. Knows I’m passionate about debate and policy, can speak of my intellectual drive and curiosity
  • Euro teacher: 10/10, only had him for one class but it was small so we got to know each other well! I update him about what I’m doing outside of school and chat with him all the time. He can speak to more of my personality and how I’d add to the college community
  • Counselor: ?/10, only speak with her twice a year and she writes for 100 other students so probably very generic.

Schools

  • Assured (100% chance of admission and affordability): Rutgers
  • Extremely Likely: Fordham
  • Likely: Bryn Mawr
  • Lower Probability: NYU, Georgetown, Haverford
  • Low Probability: Princeton (top choice), Swarthmore, UPenn

Please help me in deciding whether I should…

  1. SCEA to Princeton and ED1 to Swarthmore
  2. ED1 to Swarthmore and ED2 to Haverford

Thank you for reading! :blush:

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The “Assured Admission” category is for schools with auto-admit. Rutgers doesn’t have that, so it’s technically in the “extremely likely” category.

This isn’t possible. If you apply SCEA to Princeton you cannot apply early to any other private school.

Finally: what is your budget?

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You have a chance. But don’t worry - no matter where you go you have a chance at a T14 law school. Harvard’s first year class of 600 is represented by 147 schools. UVA a similar amount. Penn over 200 schools represented in the law school.

Whether you go to Portland State, Pitt or Princeton, you can get into a top 14 law school.

It seems many kids today are getting work experience but gpa and LSAT matter and I suspect you’ll do well on both but especially the latter.

Is Rutgers assured ? In other words, at Arizona State you need a certain hs gpa or test and you are in. Does Rutgers have similar ? Otherwise it’s not assured but likely.

I agree it will happen though.

I think your list looks good. Your schools are smaller so I wonder if you might add TCNJ as another in state public highly likely in case you decide later Rutgers is too big.

I assume all these schools meet your budget - whatever it is ?

As for ED or SCEA, it depends. Have you visited all ? If so, what is your top choice.

If Swat, ED there. If Princeton, don’t ED Swat.

You should never bind yourself to a school that isn’t your top choice, especially a student as strong as you. And of course not at one that doesn’t meet your budget (if that’s a concern here).

Best of luck.

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Ah, sorry. That was a mistake on my part; I did mean to write ED2. My budget is around 25k per year. Using NPCs, nearly all of the schools on my list aside from Fordham and Georgetown would meet that.

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So Gtown doesn’t have merit aid. So remove it. Or if close, you can keep. Maybe you mis entered the NPC?

You might look at the NPCs for Tufts, Wake Forest, Emory, Brandeis, Lafayette, Davidson, Dickinson, and W&L - which has great merit and need based aid including the full ride Johnson that 10% of all kids get. L All those meet need. But as you experienced at Gtown, not all need formulas are the same. Hence the need to do the NPCs.

Other meets needs schools like Vandy and WUSTL have ample, but hard to get large merit in addition to need aid.

W&M, on their website, claims to try and meet need for OOS like UVA promises to but I haven’t seen it. You may run the NPC and they do have the 1693 scholars award which would work although hard to get.

Fordham has merit.

Do you qualify for need aid at Rutgers (family income under $100k for some aid, $65k for full tuition)? If not, is Rutgers affordable ?

Another option - a less competitive school where you stand out. Mine turned down W&L for Charleston. She’s a Charleston Fellow and in two other competitive, endowed programs there.

Her scholarship is more than tuition. Her bff in the program turned down Vandy, Rice and Penn.

I don’t think the tuition benefit is set in stone but I can’t imagine you wouldn’t get an invite to the interview weekend.

Good luck.

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GT NP is fairly close (~30k). I did omit the fact that I am only looking at colleges within a ~3 hour radius from where I reside in South Jersey due to family matters, so unfortunately most of the colleges you suggested are out of the question. My household income is around 115k annually, so my Rutgers NP is ~20k.

I am curious to hear your opinion: Do you think applying SCEA to Princeton (my top choice) is worth it for me? Would I be losing any strategic advantage by giving up the chance to apply ED to 2 places? As Haverford does consider demonstrated interest, I’m worried if I don’t ED I may not get in RD.

Thank you for your help and congrats on your daughter’s success! :slightly_smiling_face:

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I would reconsider using two history teachers for your recommendations. It can be done, but if you have a STEM teacher who can confidently recommend you it might be good to have that diversity.

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100% agreed with the previous post at @Metawampe, especially at top schools. Math, English, Science, Language - but not a social science. In fact, Princeton says this:

“Please ask two of your teachers who have taught you in higher level courses (e.g., AP, IB Higher/Standard Level, A-Levels, etc.) in different academic areas of study.”

So you want to follow directions of each school or that could lead to an auto reject.

Per Rutgers, you only get help if the family earns less than $100k. How do they get to $20k ? Is there merit? Tuition, room and board this year are $31,976 - just those categories. Not things like books. I’m not familiar with merit there.

Could a full ride like the W&L Johnson which fully 10% get each year alter the 3 hour rule ?

Otherwise check the distance from home to Dickinson and Lafayette - fine schools that meet need. I think they might be in distance range.

How about Barnard ? Also I think Lehigh and Franklin & Marshall are in range. Check the NPCs as both meet need.

As great as you are and you are, some colleges take the need required into their decision. So statistically Bryn Mawr works but now that I know your budget, it’s a reach. Not super high but a reach because they are need aware or sensitive as they like to say. Direct from their website:

“Bryn Mawr College is need-sensitive. This means that the amount of aid a student requests of the College may affect the admission decision.”

So I’m suggesting you check the NPCs of other schools within range because

I think with your need, the more shots you take, the better.

As an example, you might not love Lehigh but it’s strong in Poli Sci. While they are technically need aware, they say:

“For the vast majority of applicants we do not consider whether they are applying for financial aid or how much FA they might need to attend Lehigh. For a very small portion
those financial considerations may become one factor among many in an admission decision. In all cases our review will remain holistic and in no cases will the ability or inability to pay become the only or primary factor.”

So the more apps, in your case, the better it is.

Back to your question, it’s tough. All are hard admits.

I believe Haverford is need aware. There’s no way to know how much they’re willing to provide. While stats show they’ll go deep to those they admit, given Questbridge and other programs, you don’t know how many they’ll go deep with. In last years class, 173 of 373 got need aid but at $64,811 on average.

I would rank the schools. If you prefer Swat, apply ED and Princeton RD.

If Princeton, apply SCEA and Swat ED Winter (2) if you don’t get Princeton.

Don’t game. This is four years of your life, day after day. You worked your tail off. Chase your #1. That’s my opinion anyway.

Hope that helps. And good luck.

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As you can appreciate Princeton is lottery pick even for students with stats like yours. That said for sure use SCEA for Princeton if thats your number 1 as you could be a lottery winner.

As @tsbna44 mentioned admission to a top 14 will have less to do with which undergradute school you attend than your undergrad GPA and your LSAT score. If you have a 4.0 GPA and over a 170 LSAT you will have an excellent chance at a top 14 law school whether you attend Princeton or Lehigh or Pitt.

Also understand that law school at a T14 will cost anywhere from $150K to 225K for tuition alone. While there can be merit money at some T14 schools it will be more limited than lesser rated schools and will require the highest of GPA and LSAT scores to have any chance.

Depending on your career goals after law school a T14 school is not the only way to get there. Just like Princeton is not the only way into a T14 law school.

If for example your goal is big law, that can happen from lots of schools other than T14. Top grades and law review from top 50 law schools can get you big law jobs. For example my daughter had a 4.0 from Clemson and 168 LSAT (rejected at Princeton SCEA with a 4.0 and 35 ACT by the way) and got a full tutition scholarship and living stipend from UF (ranked about 21-25) and got multiple offers at big law firms with a class rank of about 7 out of 255.

In fairness if your goal is to be a law clerk for a Justice of the Supreme Court of the US graduating at top of your class from a T14 school increases your chances for sure.

My point is there are lots of ways to skin a cat and you really have to consider the financial aspects of both undergraduate and law school as explore all your options. You are clearly a great student and will no doubt have a great future. My only suggestion is to not get hung up only on rankings prestige alone as you plan your future.

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Can my experience as someone who graduated from his public flagship university back the Bronze Age be instructive? Maybe.

My friend group in undergrad included many people who went on to get a J.D. Where were they admitted for Law? Yale, Penn, UVA, Michigan, NYU, Boston College, Boston University and Cornell. I did not pursue a law degree, but my studies continued at Harvard.

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Financial aid wise, Princeton might be your cheapest option, as the expected family contribution for the household income level of $150k (closest to your 115k) is $12500. You are a competitive candidate for all the schools on your list. I would SCEA Princeton, and get all other applications ready to go if it does not work out. For P’s application, do you have a graded written paper? 4 years of a single foreign language?

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Or who is at Penn (#4) - Adelphi, Ball State, Creighton, Duquesne, Earlham, Fairleigh Dickinson, Grove City, Hampton, Kalamazoo, Middle Tennessee State, Southern Illinois, Stockton (a NJ public), U of so many states, Wagner and it goes on an on.

Take law school out.

Find the right school - inclusive of law school affordability !!!

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You have a strong background which will make you competitive everywhere. Unfortunately, reaches are very unpredictable for unhooked students - especially those that are coming from over represented states like NJ. Still, I think you should apply SCEA to Princeton if it is your clear #1. If Princeton doesn’t come through you can apply ED2 to Swarthmore and RD to any other schools that interest you and look to be within budget after running the NPC. If you are interested in PoliSci, you should run the NPC at both GW and American to see if they could possibly meet budget with a combination of merit/need aid - both are excellent for PoliSci and within your 3 hour radius. Both are targets/likelies although you’d need to show a lot of interest with American.

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If Princeton is your favorite, I would just SCEA Princeton.

For ED2–one thing to keep in mind is you could be deferred and not rejected by Princeton (or an ED1 school if you go that way) You’ll have to then decide whether to ED2 anywhere.

In fact this happened to my S24 along with a friend–they both applied SCEA to Yale, both got deferred. My S24 considered ED2 at WUSTL, decided not to. I don’t know if his friend considered ED2, but for sure he didn’t do it. Long story short, my S24 was rejected by Yale eventually, but admitted RD to WUSTL anyway. His friend was admitted to Yale. Obviously it doesn’t always work out that way, but it happens enough that you might take your chances.

To make this a little easier, it helps to make sure you have a good list beyond your possible ED2 school. And both of these kids ended up with lots of good options even if the above had not worked out. In fact, my S24 was also admitted to Haverford, just regular RD. For demonstrated interest, he visited Haverford and wrote thoughtful essays.

In your case, I think it is great you also have Bryn Mawr and Fordham on your list, but I do wonder if maybe one or two more colleges might make sense.

One thought would be Vassar (which also admitted my S24 in RD, although probably being male helped there). It seems like a great fit for you, and although it is right on the edge of your range of 3 hours (maybe just beyond depending on where in South Jersey), I think it could be worth considering.

Another would be Barnard, which again seems like a potentially very good fit.

I would also agree on checking out Franklin & Marshall, and the “other” DC schools, GW and American.

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Regarding the LORs: To clarify, I had my debate coach as a teacher for both history and politics, so it’s one social science and one history rec. I understand this is only marginally different from two history classes, however, as like you stated social science isn’t a core academic field.

The main reason I’d like to keep my Euro teacher (aside from the fact that he knows me well) is because he is also a track coach at Princeton and offered to write a separate LOR tailored to them. He specifically noted that I have the intellectual vitality seen within his Princeton athletes. At the time, that seemed like an advantage and I was not too concerned with the fact that both LORs would be from similar fields.

I have a decent relationship with my STEM teachers but I know they don’t know as much of my personality and hobbies outside of school. However, I don’t know if those facets are crucial to a good LOR.

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I didn’t state it wasn’t a core class - history, politics are both core.

To me, you’d be “defying” Princeton’s rule - but it is true, they are not the same and you can take that chance.

Or you can email your admission counselor and ask if it would be an issue. They’ll let you know. Perhaps your current path is ok.

For any teacher you ask to write an LOR, you should provide them a brag sheet or mini resume. What do you do or have you done outside of school? What are your interests, etc.

Best of luck.

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If you apply SCEA to Princeton, if you get accepted, you can still apply RD to these other colleges.

If you apply ED to anywhere and get accepted, you are done. Full stop.

Think about that.

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Congratulations on making yourself such a strong candidate! Below are my guesses as to your chances for admission at the schools on your list.

Extremely Likely (80-99+%)

  • Rutgers

Likely (60-79%)

  • Fordham (leaning towards extremely likely)

Toss-Up (40-59%)

  • Bryn Mawr

Lower Probability (20-39%)

Low Probability (less than 20%)

  • NYU

  • Georgetown

  • Haverford

  • Princeton

  • Swarthmore

  • UPenn

If Princeton is your top choice, I definitely think that applying SCEA is appropriate. Additionally, it won’t close out your opportunity to see other school’s offers.

A couple other schools you may want to consider, most of which I would think of as likelies (or toss-ups if they’re need aware) include:

George Washington (D.C.): About 11k undergrads, a fabulous location for internships and a culture that really works with that practice, and it also offers a major in Korean (so sufficient options, I would assume, for your interests). There are also full tuition merit scholarships here for which I think you would be competitive. You will need to show definite interest here, as they don’t want to be considered a backup to Georgetown, but if you do show interest.

U. of Maryland: About 30k undergrads and I think you would be competitive for the Banneker Key scholarship which can end up being a full ride. There’s a minor in Korean Studies here as well. You need to apply EA here as more than 90% of first year seats are filled in EA, plus it’s a requirement for admission to honors (and hence consideration for Banneker Key).

Gettysburg (PA ): About 2200 undergrads and @NiceUnparticularMan often refers to this as a school that feels within the D.C. orbit. In addition to traditional offerings in political science and philosophy, it also offers a public policy major that takes advantage of its Eisenhower Institute and its journal on public policy.

I agree with Dickinson and Lafayette as suggestions as well as Franklin & Marshall and Lehigh.

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I second AustenNut’s suggestion (post #18) about U Maryland College Park. I think that November 1 is the Maryland’s EA deadline; the essays are critical for the Banneker Key Scholarship selection, as there is no additional separate application for the honors (including the BK) at Maryland.

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I do have the four years of a single language and a graded paper. However, I have some essays I wrote outside of school that I think are a bit better in both quality and substance. Would it be unethical to have a teachers arbitrarily grade one of those outside of a formal school assignment and use that?