Chance me & Match me as Middle Eastern International Student currently in her junior year!

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics:

For a bit of context I’m applying as either a Bio or Biomedical Engineering major (I want to take the pre-med courses but I’m not 100% sure if medicine is for me, so I want to have the option to either become a Biomedical Engineer or go into med school).

I’m applying as an international student, Middle Eastern (Egyptian currently living in Saudi Arabia) middle class girl (~$80-120k per year, will be needing need-based aid). I hopefully aim to get into a T20 (Yale, Georgetown, Columbia, etc.) school with financial aid, what do you think my chances are? & what schools do you think I’m likely to get into? I’m also currently a Junior, what can I do to improve & boost myself, any honor ideas that would fit my profile?

Academics:

4.0 UW GPA

Still taking the SATs but 1500 estimate for now

Will be also taking the ACT (Bio) & an English Proficiency Test

I attend a private all girls international school (around 60-70 girls in my grade)

No APs because my school (& my entire city) doesn’t offer them. Our yearly coursework includes 12 subjects every year including English (Literature & Grammar), Arabic, French, Bio, Chem, Physics, History, Religion, Physical Education, a math subject (Alg 1 for 9th, Alg 2 for 10th, Pre-Calc for 11th, Calc + Stats for 12th).

Extra Curricular Activities so far:

  • Founder & Executive Director of my own art collective organization. We make community events & projects & donate a big portion of the profits & use the rest for more events & projects. For our launch we are planning an event that’ll consist of a charity auction, art exhibit, & social function. The event’ll be this November & we have made huge progress already, reaching 20+ brilliant artists who have worked with globally renowned actors, Formula 1, huge corporations such as Adidas, MDL Beast, & much more. With over 30 pieces being created, we’ve reached artists all over Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Britain, & much more still being confirmed. We’ve already attracted potential bidders in Jeddah & New York who are genuinely already interested in our project. We estimate around $10,000 being donated to charity following our very first event.

  • A sector of my nonprofit. A 7 episode podcast with some of the most influential & incredible women from mainly Arab countries. After each episode they contribute something that is meaningful to them & with the help of sponsors & investors we also gather hygiene supplies such as pads, clothes, childcare items, etc. We put everything together into boxes to donate to women’s shelters.

  • Finance & Enterprise Manager of my team in the global Formula 1 in Schools program. Dedicated 15+ hours/week for 5+ months. Raised over $8000 to promote sustainability and motorsports. I gained experience interacting with different companies, sponsors, & public figures such as Formula 1 drivers. Connected logistics with communications.

  • Had the privilege of mentoring 400+ high school students in applying to the most prestigious college prep program in the country for 6+ months (reviewed essays, offered tips & advice to hundreds of students, etc.). Connected with students & created meaningful relationships with them for months. Learned to interact with all sorts of different people.

  • Director of Community Service in my school. Organized community service trips with local charities & universities, oversaw all high school students’ analytics for service work, accumulated 100+ hours myself.

-Working in marketing for local volunteering organisation.

  • Brand consultant for small community businesses & nonprofits.

  • Head of Outreach for over 2 years & counting in the organisation that pioneered MUN in the country

  • Kode With Klossy Website Development Camp.

Schools I’m currently considering (most of them meet 100% of demonstrated needs for internationals if admitted I believe). I want to remove schools from my list (bring it down to 12 maximum) let me know your opinions!!
Please let me know my chances & match me with schools that fit my profile!!

REACH

  • All the Ivy’s, along with MIT & Stanford.
  • Georgetown (doesn’t offer the aid I need but it’s a dream school so I’ll be applying)
  • U Chicago
  • Rice
  • Northwestern
  • Duke
  • Johns Hopkins
  • Pomona
  • WashU
  • Colby College
  • Amherst
  • Notre Dame
  • Hamilton College

TARGET

  • Connecticut College
  • George Washington University
  • UVA

SAFTEY

  • George Mason University
  • Penn State
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With respect to your interest in premed studies, the suggestions in this site comport with a several of your current choices:

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It is almost impossible to realistically chance an international student who needs significant financial aid to attend college in the United States.

Perhaps @MYOS1634 has some ideas.

I think you have to do some research on these colleges. First…the only two where I see a pretty decent chance of admission are Penn State and George Mason, and neither guarantees to meet full need for all accepted students.

Many many of the other colleges on your list are need aware for admissions which means your level of financial need can be considered when your application is reviewed.

How much aid do you need to attend college here?

From the UVA website:
Student Financial Services does not award financial aid to international or foreign students. Students may apply for alternative loan programs that are available from private financial institutions.

Penn State and George Mason do not guarantee to meet full need for all accepted students.

From the George Washington University website:
GW’s Office of Student Financial Assistance administers need-based aid to undergraduate students. Need-based assistance is only available to eligible U.S. citizens and permanent residents. International students are not eligible for need-based assistance. Learn more about need-based aid at GW, including how and when to apply.

Georgetown:

Georgetown University is Need-Blind for all applicants.

Admitted students who have requested financial aid and are not U.S. citizens or permanent residents will be considered for a very limited number of need-based scholarships

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Where are you hoping to attend medical school, and practice medicine? International students acceptances to medical schools here are VERY VERY small and most are Canadian citizens. @WayOutWestMom can explain.

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Just adding…I’m not trying to be pessimistic here. I think you need to look more broadly for affordable colleges, perhaps in your home country or in Europe maybe.

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International students are severely disadvantaged when it comes to attending med school in the US.

First, only about 40 med school will even consider international students for admissions. Most of those 40 accept 1 or zero international students/year. (Almost always “inside candidates”–exceptional students who attended the undergrad associated with the med school.) Only 8-10 schools consistently admit 3 or more international students year after year.

Second, all international applicants are segregated into separate admission pools and compete only against other international students for those 3 or 4 or 5 open international seats. The competition is intense.

Lastly, and the most difficult to overcome. There is NO FINANCIAL AID for international students. International med school applicants are expected to be able to pay 100% of their medical education. International students are required to place 2 to 4 years of tuition and fees in a US escrow account BEFORE they are allowed to enroll in med school. (Typical amount required is in the $250K- $400K range.) International student are not eligible for the fully paid MSTP program because they are not US citizens. Nor are they eligible for any of the other programs that pay for med school.

All of this means that only a few international med students matriculate at US schools.

In 2023 (the most recent year data is available), 1297 international applied to all US medical school combined; only 143 actually enrolled. (Most of those 143 were Canadians because more med school will consider Canadian for admission than citizens of other foreign countries and because the Canadian government will provide/guarantee loans for its citizen swho attend a US med school.

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OK so if you do get into a US school, will you get enough, financially, to attend? If by some luck and fortune you get enough aid to attend, what happens next? What are you planning to do? The US schools will educate you but after you graduate your student visa expires. It’s expected that you return to your home country.

You can major in any major that you want however engineering is a tough, tough discipline. It is competitive to get into a program. I have two engineer children who saw a LOT of their very capable friends/classmates drop the major.

Grades are very important for med school. Grades are also very important for engineering. My husband and my daughter’s companies won’t even look at resumes that are under 3.5 GPA.

What are you going to do about med school? There are a boatload of tests and fees that you need to pay.

You also need to have volunteer experiences, in the US, that are with the lower income, medically indigent populations in a medical setting.

No one sponsors you for that; they’re all volunteer positions and are often VERY competitive. Plus you put in 10 to 12 hours per day as a volunteer. That means it’s either summers or a year or two that you take off to complete that. Without a visa that would be very difficult to do. During your undergraduate studies, you may or may not have time to do that.

If by some miracle, you get into Med school, it will run you about $360,000 a year. I know from personal experience, while paying for my child, it’s not cheap. Your parents have to pay. And you have to prove that you have the funds.

There are a lot of expenses that come up. There are no financial aid avenues for you to be sponsored. American students are funded by their parents or they take out massive loans that they will be paying down the road for 10-20 years.

So your first hurdle is paying for your education. There is no free money. They colleges guard their dollars because everyone’s on a budget. I( know that Johns Hopkins is very stingy with their money -even for needy students.)

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If you are thinking of medical school, consider applying in Egypt. It is extremely competitive, and I’m not sure if the application process is not corrupted by graft. Assuming that you can get in there, you can then apply for a residency in the US, and eventually practice in the US. Medical school in the US is really pretty much impossible, as an international applicant.

If what you want is a quicker way to get into the US, and possibly get into medical school in the US, get your RN or BSN in your home country, pass the US nursing boards, and then get a job in the US. Assuming that you got a four year degree, you can then just do your premed prereqs while you’re working here, prep for the MCAT, and apply for med school as soon as you get your green card. You would then be eligible for federal loans to attend medical school here.

If what you want is a bachelor’s degree from the US, knowing that it will be pretty much impossible for you to go to medical school here, and that you will probably have to leave the country to return home to Egypt or possibly to Saudi Arabia right after you finish school, then sure, go ahead and apply here. There are threads here about the very few schools that meet full fin need for int’l students. You should apply to all of those. The less selective schools that are more likely to take you are unlikely to offer you enough fin aid to be able to attend. Make other options - such as college in your home country.

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What’s most important to you - becoming a doctor or attending a US college?
As has been mentioned above, US med schools do not train internationals, they would rather have you complete your training in your own country and then compete for spots through a US process.

If attending a US college matters most, you can major in Engineering, math, CS/informatics… not just engineering. After you graduate from college you can get an OPT for 27 months minus the time, converted into full time equivalent, spent on off campus internships (which you need to find an OPT). OPT allows you to apply what you learned in college and work legally in the US without another type of work permit. After that time, either you are admitted to grad school or you return to your country. Unlike other developed nations, there’s no pathway to permanent residence or long term work status for international college graduates. (There’s the H1B visa but for the past 15 years it’s become a literal lottery.)

On the other hand, a yearly income of 80-120k a year is uncommon for internationals and excellent for many meet need/need aware schools so that’s what I’d target.

You need to get a Fiske Guide or Princeton Review’s Best Colleges because these colleges are all over the place in terms of fit.

US colleges can be quite different and their personalities should match yours.

You may want to start emailing those you consider to see whether they offer a substance free housing option. (The levels of social drunkenness at many colleges would likely be a huge shock for someone raised in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, so having a ready-made social network that doesn’t involve alcohol/drugs and a substance free housing situation would likely be important. In addition, it saves you from having to deal with a roommate who throws up into the wastebasket.)

You may want to reach out to clubs of interest, see how often they meet, how easy it is to join, what they actually do…
To demonstrate interest, sign up for the mailing list using a college-dedicated email; check it regularly and click on links if interest (this will be tracked).

Are you a junior currently or about to start junior year?

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Only if they had green card or citizenship status. Simply working here doesn’t grant you the right to access U.S. federally funded loans. @kelsmom

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I literally wrote, “…and apply for med school AS SOON AS YOU GET YOUR GREEN CARD. You would then be eligible for federal loans to attend medical school here.”

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Sorry…I missed that. But applying for and getting a green card is not all that easy or fast in many cases.

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Coming to the US as a nurse is one of the surest routes towards getting a green card. It can take as little as 12 months, but certainly can take longer. OP would need to do a bit of research and possibly consult with a very good immigration atty to figure out their best way, but a 2 yr nursing degree in their home country, and passing the US nursing boards, is probably their only viable route towards eventually attending medical school in the US.

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I agree with this.

If they plan on practicing medicine in their home country, they really should just go to college/med school there.

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I was under the impression a 2 year nursing degree is not sufficient for the green card route? The student should also note this route involves sponsorship by an employer and generally requires around a 3 year work commitment after arrival. It seems a long and circuitous route towards eventually becoming a doctor in the US. I know a number of people from my home country who qualify as doctors there (a route that is not only much cheaper but also shorter than the US as it is a similar system to the UK) then do the conversion exams etc to practice in the US.

Then again, OP also said they did not know for sure whether they want to do medicine. i kind of see the dilemma - there is no real point doing pre-med in the US if you can’t go on to do med school here, but in many other countries the medicine route locks you in from day 1 and changing major somewhere down the line is more difficult.

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Doing her undergrad degree in the US will be difficult unless her family can pay for it, plus she will have to leave right after she finishes.

Here’s a good summary of the immigrant nurse process. https://www.cgfns.org/steps-to-working-as-nurse-in-united-states/

But I completely agree - unless the person is absolutely sure that they want to go to med school in the US, it seems unwise to go this route. Alternatively, they’ve got to make plans for a life as an Egyptian citizen. Going back to Egypt for college and employment is a tough road. Working in Saudi Arabia as a woman with a US college degree, if she can get one, is
not much easier. Not many options there, except teaching in a girls’ school, and she hasn’t expressed any interest in that. Yes, it’s a long road to getting an RN immigrant visa, and then doing the pre-reqs and med school, but not really much longer than the same road taken by many US students, to get into medical school. Most students don’t start med school until they are 24, in the US. She can do the pre-reqs and study for the MCATs and go through the >1year application process while working as a nurse in the US.

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Again, that’s assuming she 100% wants to be a doctor. For someone considering a degree in biomedical engineering or another alternative , doing nursing - especially if the only goal is to get into med school one day - is not necessarily an attractive route either.

Again, there are many shorter - and cheaper - options that lead directly into medicine available outside the US, with the ability to be able to practice in the US in due course if that is the aim. Many countries, but not all, do limit non-residents ability to do medicine degrees so that tilts it towards her home country or residence country though.

It would be helpful if the poster could clarify what her goals after finishing college are, in terms of whether or not she wants to try immigrate to the US or live elsewhere.

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Since you study French, I should add the process of attending “premedical school Year 1” is fairly straightforward in France. If you choose the LAS/English pathway, it’s not an overly selective pathway provided you have decent grades in Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Math, and English + whatever French certificate they require. It’s tuition free, too. The difficulty comes next: 1 year of 12-hour days, memorizing pages and pages. The year starts in September. In December, there’s a slew of 4 hour exams and the bottom 15% are cut. The remaining 85% have a 1 in 4 chance of moving to Year 2 which is official med school. For the LAs/English pathway it means ranking in the top 10 for English and top 20% for premed classes. It’s 100% exams, no contact with patients expected. The environment can also be unfriendly.

There are programs in English in Poland and Romania, too.

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@thumper1 @aunt_bea @parentologist @merc81 @MYOS1634 @SJ2727 @WayOutWestMom

Hiiii, thank you so much for all your replies & suggestions!! I should have probably given more context towards my thought process going into the application process lol. I absolutely know that med schools in the US are practically impossible to get into & will need proof that I’ll be able to pay for it (unless it’s an ivy med school). Let me give you guys a scenario that kinda shows my thought process.

Say I work really really hard these next two years & get into a school such as U Connecticut or U Chicago, which will give me the aid I need to be able to attend. I go in, I get my bachelors in either Bio or Biomedical Engineering, as planned, I eventually graduate & now I hold a bachelors degree. If I still want to be a doctor, my plan is to apply to the med schools that do take international students in the US (cuz why not) & also apply to Graduate Entry Medicine programs all over the UK, Europe, & obviously the Middle East.

Basically, these programs are for people that hold a bachelors degree, & along with some entrance tests & basic requirements, I can graduate as a Doctor of Medicine (MD) in around 4 years (plus the 4 years I already did in the US) instead of the traditional 6-year program. After graduating I could either apply to residency in the US or training wherever else. I don’t really mind the additional 2 years as long as I know for sure if I want to be a doctor, I don’t want to be stuck with the 6-year program if I decide it’s not for me.

Hopefully this all makes sense, feel free to be as brutally honest as you possibly can.
I’d also loveeeee advice on how to better my chances to get into some of the schools on my list!!

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I don’t know about Europe, but I know that in the UK the government limits the amount of places available to international students to study medicine, including the graduate programs. For example, this from the Oxford website:

Competition for places on the Medicine course at Oxford University for international students is very strong as the Medical School is required by the government to restrict the number of studentswho are classified as international students for fees purposes to a maximum of fourteen each year, across both the standard (A100) and Graduate Entry (A101) courses.

Imperial College and Cambridge both say they will only take home students for their graduate programs.

UCL does not have a separate graduate program, but says that for graduates entering its program, it does not accept degrees from outside the UK.

I realize these are all top colleges and it may be easier elsewhere, but I think you can see where I’m going with this. You may want to do a little bit more research to see what a US degree can realistically get you in elsewhere. Again, I have no idea about the rest of Europe.

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