Chance Me/Match me for Philosophy Pre-law [4.0UW, 1570 SAT, HS Senior, NJ] ["Parents willing to pay full price to reaches, otherwise looking for significant merit aid"]

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics

  • US domestic (US citizen)
  • State/Location of residency: New Jersey surburbs
  • Type of high school: Small public
  • Other special factors: N/A

Cost Constraints / Budget
Parents willing to pay full price to reaches, otherwise looking for significant merit aid. I may end up going in-state Rutgers on significant aid depending on the situation, as law school would likely be very expensive.

Intended Major(s): Philosophy on pre-law track or public policy (PPE, PPL, etc)

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 4.0
  • Weighted HS GPA: 4.42 (+ 0.5 for APs)
  • Class Rank: Does not rank
  • ACT/SAT Scores: 1570 (800 RW, 770 Math) not superscore

List your HS coursework

  • English: AP Lang, AP Lit
  • Math: Algebra 2, AP Precalc, AP Calc BC
  • Science: Adv Bio, Honors Chem, AP Chem, AP Physics 1
  • History and social studies: AP World (5), APUSH, AP Euro, AP Gov
  • Language other than English: Honors Chinese 4
  • Visual or performing arts: Choir
  • Other academic courses: AP Psych (5), AP CSA (5), AP Macro

(13 total APs)

Awards

  1. FIRST Robotics State Champions

  2. State wide cultural award

  3. AP Scholar with Distinction

^^ Weakest area. I wish I had done Scholastics but I knew about it too late. I’m doing John Locke Essay comp, hopefully will get something.

Extracurriculars

  1. Captain and Cofounder @ FIRST Tech Challenge Robotics Team ➙ Captain all 4 years, State champions, Led over 30 outreach projects, helped bring robotics to some countries in Africa for the first time, won Gene HAAS grant

  2. Captain @ National Speech and Debate Team ➙ Leadership role since middle school, Train 15 new members, won 3x national comps. I haven’t really been able to compete due to my grandmother restricting any multi-day travels + lack of a partner so I’ve mostly been teaching/doing logistics this year.

  3. VP @ NACLO Team, meet every other week. I read through a 500 page linguistics guide and now teach people tips for each problem. Next year I’m hoping to make it more organized and split each meeting into different types of problems.

  4. Board member @ Asian Cultures Club ➙ Leadership role since middle school, Organized 50+ member trip to various cultural landmarks in NYC. Awareness campaign during covid for stopasianhate.

  5. Volunteer @ Schoolhouse.world SAT tutoring ➙ 20+ hours

  6. Volunteer @ 2 week Chinese-America exchange trip ➙ Main translator + hosted a student for 2 weeks in America.

  7. Paid work @ Local Community School Summer Camp as counselor for a month, full time

  8. #1 in school @ STEM Olympiads (Chem League and AMC12)

  9. Member @ Social Justice club ➙ Pitched and organized a book drive for Books through Bars where we donated $400+ worth of books

  10. Freelance Artist ➙ Will likely submit an art portfolio; over 500 followers on Instagram

  11. Member @ NHS, Science NHS, and officer and founder of Psychology NHS → met with Principal

Additional Info: Caretaker for grandmother with late-stage vascular dementia. Lots of safety hazards so someone has to be home at all times.

Essays/LORs/Other
Essays: People have complimented my writing ability; I would really like to demonstrate my interest in philosophy through my essay since it doesn’t really appear anywhere else on my profile. I applied to NSLI-Y this year and I got semifinals and I believe it’s mostly based off of essays? I’ve also applied to a couple other summer programs (High School Diplomats, Yale Young Global Scholars, Stanford Summer Humanities Institute, NJ Scholars Program) which required essays similar to the Common App but still waiting to hear back from those.

LORs: AP Psych teacher, loves me a lot and says I’m his favorite student in over a decade, always gets me philosophy/psychology books and we talk a lot outside of class; AP Lang teacher, had for 2 years, I participate literally every time in her class and I talk to her outside of class about what I’m reading a lot.

Schools
(List of colleges by your initial chance estimate; designate if applying ED/EA/RD; if unsure, leave them unclassified)

  1. Princeton
  2. Yale
  3. Stanford
  4. Oxford
  5. Williams
  6. Swarthmore
  7. Amherst
  8. Northwestern
  9. Georgetown (International Relations)
  10. Emory
  11. Cornell

Likelies/Targets

  1. UIUC (parent’s alma mater) EA
  2. Rutgers-NB EA
  3. Bryn Mawr (debate camp) RD
  4. UPitt EA

I know my list is a bit top-heavy so if maybe my profile doesn’t match that level please let me know!! I would also appreciate any school suggestions. I specifically need a school with a study abroad program and I prefer schools near cities, but that’s more of a preference.

I would also really appreciate any EA/SCEA/REA/ED recommendations. I was thinking of UPenn ED but I heard the culture there can be a bit toxic/pre-professional finance-y which I would like to stay away from.

Really appreciate any and all advice!! Thank you so much for reading all the way through.

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Great profile and nice list!

Just a couple of other schools you might want to think about:

  • University of Chicago - Very strong/big philosophy department and they like to debate. It’s also somewhat advantageous for UChicago law school since they have a number of spots for UChicago undergrads.
  • New York University - very robust philosophy department as well and would potentially make a slightly easier admit than a lot of the other schools on your list.

Those might make compelling substitutions for Penn. You could also consider Haverford and Swarthmore if you’re interested in Bryn Mawr.

Also, you may already know this but Rutgers has one of the top philosophy departments in the world. Can’t go wrong there!

Good luck on the summer programs!

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Great credentials and list. Congrats.

I don’t think your list is top heavy - as you need to get into one you can afford. If you are truly going to law school, you need to budget for 7 years and the where you go likely has little, if any impact on getting into law school other than you want to be at a place you can excel from a GPA and impact POV. Your LSAT will weigh heavily and for top law schools a post grad year or two.

That your parents can pay $400K is good - but can they pay another $300K for law school. And if you can get into the same law school going to college for $25K instead of $100K, does that matter to them, that’s the type of things to discuss.

So I think your list is great because your four likelies are safe - especially Rutgers and Pitt.

Given that you have some LACs, you might consider W&L and go for the Johnson Scholarship. It goes to 10% of enrollees - it’s a full ride plus. Similarly but not as many, why not trying Davidson, UNC, UVA and W&M. You are at that level. For an “easy” admit beneath you but the very competitive Charleston Fellows program that gets Ivy and top school admits, you could try the College of Charleston as well.

You are extremely accomplished and I’m guessing will get into some on your 1-11 list.

I’d be shocked if you didn’t get into all four target/likelies.

If this is your weakness - well, you don’t have a weakness - well we all do but this isn’t it: ^^ Weakest area. I wish I had done Scholastics but I knew about it too late. I’m doing John Locke Essay comp, hopefully will get something.

The big thing to me is the budget - if Rutgers in state is $35K by the time you go and Cornell is $95K + by the time you go, is there any chance they’ll let you go to Cornell? You say they’ll pay for top - but is that really true? There’s a $260K delta.

I ask because if money will matter - then you want to expand that 1-11 list to schools that offer merit money - whether a Vandy/Wash U which have competitive merit or a U Miami which gives most everyone or a Connecticut or Union College or Grinnell, etc. at a minimum as subs for schools you have.

But if you’re happy with Rutgers, then you wouldn’t need to do that.

You’re in great shape - if the finances ultimately don’t matter.

Best of luck.

PS - not sure how “accurate” this list is - but you have #3, 4, and 5 on it that’s on your list - and funny, 3-4 are very safe for you.

QS World University Rankings for Philosophy 2025 | TopUniversities

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Thank you so much!!

  • My parents are from Illinois and they told me that they don’t feel comfortable with me at UChicago with the campus as they said it’s very dangerous. Otherwise I do think UChicago is a great school and the supplements are very interesting!
  • I wasn’t originally looking at NYU but I might add it in for RD based on how my early apps go!! I’ve definitely heard of the philosophy department before. My main issue with NYU would be the lack of a campus– Although I want proximity to a city, I would still like a separated location. But I could still compromise on that so I will probably still apply there :slight_smile:

I’m definitely applying to Swarthmore; visited their campus a year ago and was one of my absolute favorites!

Thank you so much again!!

5

Thank you so much for the detailed reply!! I appreciate it so much.

I will discuss law school plans with my parents.

At least from what my dad has said, he is willing to pay full price for very top names. He immigrated to the US on a student visa and got into Stanford, but turned it down because it wasn’t full ride. He essentially told me that he wants me to have that opportunity if I do get in schools of such calibre, but won’t pay full for anything less. So, I haven’t really looked at out of state publics like UNC/UVA/UMich which likely won’t offer OOS merit full ride/large merit scholarships. He is okay with Swarthmore or Amherst because we visited them together and I really liked the vibe.

I took a look at the LACs: W&M has 1693; W&L has Johnson Scholarship; Davidson has Belk; Charleston has Charleston Fellows. I will see if I can swap a couple out/add in some of these! Thank you so much for those suggestions, I never knew they existed but tbh they’re EXACTLY what I’ve been looking for!

I ask because if money will matter - then you want to expand that 1-11 list to schools that offer merit money - whether a Vandy/Wash U which have competitive merit or a U Miami which gives most everyone or a Connecticut or Union College or Grinnell, etc. at a minimum as subs for schools you have.

I will definitely take a look into those schools. I do believe I would be happy at Rutgers with a full ride (or mostly)!

Lastly– I’ve checked the QS Phil Ranking quite a bit but it didn’t go consciously into my school list… funny coincidence!!

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Would they be willing to pay the likely in-state price of Rutgers or other NJ public universities?

Or, what is the price limit for what they consider to be “lesser” schools?

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I think this student had a good shot of honors at Rutgers, and merit, I think they combined the honors college with departmental honors programs, and I’m not sure if that watered down the honors college scholarships. They’re not known for their generosity, but they do bribe top stat students.

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Maybe not… We were thinking of Rutgers under the impression of merit aid being given (in addition to the Honors college). If it’s going to be the in-state price straight up, we might look elsewhere.

I will ask my parents how much they are willing to pay when I get home and update this thread.

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I mentioned UNC (Morehead CAIN), UVA (Jefferson) and W&M (1693) because they have full ride potential. You’re right - it’s unlikely as is every I mentioned - but there is a possibility and why not you? You’re not exactly borderline.

Assume Rutgers at $35K. Would you still be happy? You said not but if your family can afford $100K, you should either like Rutgers or not. I mean, would you choose Pitt at $60K over $35K Rutgers if you like Rutgers better, even if you didn’t get Honors or no merit? So I would find a school you love vs. a specific price point since all are affordable. One can argue, at least based on major ranking, that Rutgers is superior to every school on your list.

One thing about rankings - they’re not the be all and end all. If you look at top law schools, Harvard, as an example, has less than 600 kids from 160+ schools. So you can go to Ramapo and get in there.

So don’t choose a school because it makes you happy. Rutgers is very different than Brynn Mawr, etc. as an example.

So make sure you end up a place where you will be happy. The rank shows it’s likely strong in the major but a rank doesn’t bring day to day happiness and you will be somewhere four years. You can study philosophy most anywhere.

Best of luck.

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You mentioned that your parents are willing to pay full price for elite private colleges. But are they in a financial position to comfortably afford that? If so, I’m not sure why the full cost of Rutgers would be a concern.

Have they used the Net Price Calculators (NPCs) for those schools to estimate how much need-based aid you might receive, if any?

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I think that you are a strong applicant at any university in the US. The problem for your reaches is that something like 80% of applications come from other very strong applicants, and the acceptance rate at most of these reach schools is in the single digits.

Another issue is that you have a lot of reach schools. Each will require essays to go with your application. If you can honestly and sincerely answer “why is this school a great fit for you” that is likely to come across in your application one way or another. I find it hard to understand why all 11 of your reach schools are a good fit for you (although I will admit that if I were going back to university my list would overlap with yours quite a bit).

I think that you should make an effort to understand the differences between these schools, cut any that are less good of a fit, and apply to the reach schools that you feel would be a great fit for you.

I expect that your safeties actually are safeties, but make sure that your guidance counselor agrees. I have known quite a few graduates from Rutgers, and they have all made the school look very good. To me this makes the point that Rutgers is a very good university, and if it really is a safety (which I hope that it is with your being in-state with such excellent stats) then to me it makes sense that most of your other applications would be to reaches. There is not much point in applying to a long list of schools that are just as good as Rutgers at only twice the price.

Also, make sure that your parents are budgeting for a full 7 years of university. You do not want to take the full cost of law school as debt. If you need to do part of your education at a relatively affordable school, it would make more sense for this to be the first 4 years rather than the last 3 years.

I might add: Personally with this list of accomplishments and the intention to go to law school I most likely would not apply ED anywhere. I think that it might be worth getting your full list of acceptances and see where you get in at what price before you make a commitment. The only exception would be if you decide that you have one single clear favorite school.

This is tough. I wish the best for you and your grandmother.

I would not be surprised if this were to come across in both your letters of reference and your essays, even if you have no specific award or EC on your application that specifically speaks to this ability.

Best wishes. I think that you are likely to do well regardless of which university you end up attending for the four years of undergrad.

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Thank you for the full ride recommendations!! I will for sure apply to these and hope for the best :slight_smile:

Yes– I talked with my parents today and they said that in total they would be able to, at the very most, provide 500k total to my education (or anything else such as mortgage/car etc). Rutgers 35K would be fine, and definitely their philosophy dep. is amazing! 35K*4 = 140K; should be enough left over for around 120K per year for law school for 3 years.

Some people say that you should apply to some other schools so that you have ‘leverage’ in financial aid discussion– do you think this makes sense? I may not apply to UPitt if not considering both cost and major ranking is less favorable than Rutgers…

Lastly, two questions:

  1. Do you have any recommendations for ED/SCEA strategy? Or if I should stay away from that and apply EA where I can and apply RD everywhere else?
  2. Any general suggestions for my summer? I’m for sure planning on working on my essays. Depending on if I get into any summer programs, I may get a paid job as well. Is my profile missing anything that would be very beneficial?

Thank you so much for all your advice!! I appreciate it very much.

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Yes!! Sorry, I was working on a misconception. My parents would be totally fine paying full cost of Rutgers :slight_smile:

No need-based aid will be received unfortunately…

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The problem for your reaches is that something like 80% of applications come from other very strong applicants, and the acceptance rate at most of these reach schools is in the single digits.

Yes, I 100% understand the first part. I know a lot of people who have amazing stats and ECs but still got rejected from majority of where they applied. I’m fully going into this with low expectations (but high hopes :face_holding_back_tears::folded_hands:) for my 1-11 schools.

I find it hard to understand why all 11 of your reach schools are a good fit for you

I see!! I will try to see if there’s anywhere I can cut from. I’ve done visits to most of them (Princeton, Yale, Oxford, Swarthmore, Amherst, Emory) and planning on the others (Stanford, Williams, NU will be in a month, Georgetown, Cornell).

I feel like at least for me personally I can be happy in most places as long as the people there are also genuinely interested in the same things as I am. Eg, I felt probably the happiest/most accepted in my life (big claim I know… will probably change as I gain more experience) at NSD, which is THE debate camp essentially. It was held on Bryn Mawr, and I really believe I made so many lasting friendships there and it was such a fun experience, as everyone was researching the same topic and had similar levels of passion. I feel like it’s really the people who make or break an experience, and for the most part bigger/smaller colleges would be fine for me regardless. At least for me, I also believe I’m someone who’s very much willing to take the initiative and take advantage of the resources available (as long as I know they exist), so really I feel like I should be flexible at most places.

Are there any particular factors you believe differentiates between these colleges that I should pay attention to?

I have known quite a few graduates from Rutgers, and they have all made the school look very good.

Rutgers is certainly an amazing option. Our school offers a scattergram of previous applications from our high school based on SAT and GPA, and I should be very much in the clear. I understand that stats are of course not the end-all-be-all, but I do expect I should be safe in terms of acceptance.

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There is not much point in applying to a long list of schools that are just as good as Rutgers at only twice the price.

Is this about my reach list or the rest of my safety list?

Also, make sure that your parents are budgeting for a full 7 years of university.

Yes!! I talked with my parents about the 7 years of education total: 500K. I believe it would be in my best interest maybe going to Rutgers for that 35K and then saving the majority of funds for law school. However, they also said that the circumstance is always changing and maybe I would be able to go to a rather expensive undergrad in addition to law school. Or, I may have to go to a very cheap one. It all depends on how things change in the coming years; regardless, they’ve encouraged me to apply to where I would like and for finances not to be a big restraining factor. My dad would be willing to pay full price for HYPSM, and he’s also offering to pay for 2 other options of my choosing in the T20s. But, definitely it may change.

Personally with this list of accomplishments and the intention to go to law school I most likely would not apply ED anywhere.

Makes sense to not ED and keep my options open! I don’t have any school that I think is a 100% favorite– I do especially like Yale and Swarthmore, but it’s not to a significant extent higher than the other schools on my list.

This is tough. I wish the best for you and your grandmother.

Thank you for the best wishes! It’s definitely tough, but I do appreciate the opportunity to be closer and learn about her childhood as I otherwise would not have.

Thank you overall for all your advice!! I appreciate it a lot!!

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My opinion:

Realize, if law school is real, where you go likely doesn’t matter but what you spend does. You seem to understand that. But just to emphasize: Harvard Law has kids from schools like Christopher Newport, Harding, Iowa State, Towson and name your U of. U Penn has from Arkansas State, Florida Gulf Coast, Stetson, Western Washington and U of pretty much all. UVA - top schools attended include Arkansas and Alabama in a given year. So you have to budget for law school. Rank - not really relevant.

Since your parents are saying $500K for law school and undergrad, you need to keep under $50K undergrad annually.

So to me - looking at your list - I wouldn’t consider Princeton, Yale, Stanford, Williams, Swat, Amherst, NU, Gtown and Cornell. They don’t have merit aid and you don’t qualify for need aid. I know Swat has a very hard to get merit - so I suppose you can leave it on and Emory has merit - but you have to apply early. I’d sub in schools like I showed you before - W&L, Davidson and maybe there’s more amongst the LACs - and Vandy, Wash U, and Rice, W&M, UVA, UNC - instead of the Princeton types. Your unlikely to get to $50K on any - but you never know. But your past and upcoming visit list is entirely wrong - unless you plan to forgo law school - or unless you want to be permanently indebted because you chose the wrong undergrad school (presuming you follow through with law school).

I would apply to U Pitt - it’s equal if you look at the ranking as Rutgers - but it’s very different. Rutgers is large and spread out. Pitt is tighter campus wise and in an urban neighborhood. Does that appeal to you? Yes, Pitt is pricier but some kids are getting $20K. So to me, it should stay - unless you truly, truly love Rutgers. And it’s good to have a second safety, just in case. But if not Pitt, who can get you to a reasonable amount? Southern schools like Bama, Miss State, Ole Miss and more will be $25K ish tops - cheaper than Rutgers. But you might not want to go to that part. U of SC should come in reasonable and you’d likely get Honors. Like Pitt, it’s smaller than Rutgers, more contained and urban. Miami Ohio is rural, etc. Michigan State is another reasonable one. College of Charleston - you might become a fellow. It’s beneath you academically but a student announced today that they are going to E Carolina - and they got into good schools - UMD for one. Why? They were awarded a Brinkley Lane Scholarship - full ride, $5K to go abroad, Research and Intern Priority, a retreat at the Outer Banks. Like mine at Charleston, this student will have enrichment in droves. I’m not suggesting it - but that’s a tradeoff for a top student like you - that may not get the riches at a top school but stands above the crowd at a perceived lesser school.

Bottom line, when you have a budget, you have to pick schools for the budget. I was full pay but gave mine a $50K budget. So they could only apply to schools that were assured to be $50K or could get to $50K. So when a school that could get to $50K but didn’t, it came off, no questions asked. And Gtown and Cornell - she didn’t bother because there was zero way to hit cost. So W&L, American, UMD, etc. came off bcuz merit didn’t get them to $50k - but schools like UF, UGA Honors, U of SC Honors stayed on. In your case, Pitt would be in (it’s possible/reasonable to hit but my not. But UIUC would be out. If you want a Big 10 sub (and I know it’s more your folks went there), you could look at Ohio State, Purdue, Michigan State, etc.

So if you’re 100% sold on law school, you risk the ability to have your parents fully fund it by keeping with your list.

I’ll disagree with the aid leverage thing. If you get into Harvard (need aid) and Dartmouth is costing more, they might meet. But you aren’t getting need aid.

If you get into Syracuse and they offer you $30K, will they care that another school offered you more? Unlikely. Might they come back with more money because you hadn’t accepted like they did last year? Sure…to try to rip you from the claws of another. But negotiation possibilities is not a reason to apply to college and likely won’t work for you. College apps are hard - essays, essays and more essays - so you want to limit yourself.

Last two questions - I am not a fan of ED unless you have a true favorite. But if Cornell at $90K loses to Rutgers at $35K, then why would you bind yourself to $90K? Actually, why would you apply in the first place. But you can say the same for a Vandy or UVA, etc. because ED binds you and while they have merit, you’re unlikely (but not impossible) to get it. And if you get in ED (binding), why would they give you anything? You’re contracted to go. SCEA - you have to read the rules. But why limit yourself for likely no advantage. Assuming Rutgers is a serious option for you, then absolutely a hard NO for early decision - that alone, if you apply to the wrong school, can wreck debt free law school for you.

Your profile is strong. Is there something you want to learn in summer, to validate or invalidate your desire, like about philosophy? Otherwise, get a job - it’s a wonderful EC. Walk dogs at the shelter, pick up trash, volunteer at the Boys and Girls club - whatever it is. Stay busy. Pay to play courses are not all that.

Sure, work on your essays. Apply to Pitt early - they have rolling admissions and get in quick.

Finally, you might want to consider 6-year law school combos.

Some, like USC, are quite pricey so wouldn’t work. But others, like Florida State, would work budget wise - and it’s a great school. Rutgers too.

Florida State University | College of Law

3+3 Program at Rutgers Law

3+3 Accelerated Program - School of Law - University at Buffalo

Third party - so verify if interested but these show 3+3. They aren’t the “names” per se but they save you a year of tuition and lost income.

Hope that helps. That’s simply how I see things.

But I’ve become expert (in my opinion) at fitting the budget thing. And if your parents save money, then it’s more for them to retire, help you with a car, etc.

16

This is simply agreeing with the point that you have a long list of reaches. If your safety is as good as Rutgers, and if you are happy with it, then there is not much point in having a long list of matches. I personally like to see two or three safeties (and you appear to have four, which is fine). After this, with safeties this good, you might as well only otherwise apply to reaches, or at least to schools that you would prefer to Rutgers (which could be a short list for some students).

Of course the problem is that 7 years of university could come out closer to $700,000, or even a bit more with inflation.

I do understand that there is some uncertainty in this. Anyone who can afford $500,000 over 7 years probably has some investments in things like the stock market (which is a good plan to offset likely inflation). However, none of us can know what the stock market is going to do over the next ten years. We each need to be a bit cautious, and do our best, and expect that things will work out.

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I took this as more - you’d be insulted if you didn’t qualify for merit aid and Honors.

Some do think like that btw - if I don’t get special status, I’d rather pay more somewhere else. At least that’s how it came off. Sure, it’d be disappointing - but you’d be amazed at how many people drop out of Honors. All Honors aren’t equal. My son applied to some but not at others. So you need to look at the curriculums and benefits of each to see if they fit you. There are also Living Learning Communities (themed dorms) that often have enrichment.

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This is a problem. Sure, you want some with shared interests but you also want (and you’ll find) people with different interests. You go to college to be challenged, to expand - whether it’s interests, food tastes or more. If you go in with a narrow attitude, you may find your people but then maybe you haven’t really taken advantage of what the experience should be.

But that’s why colleges seek such a variety of people as they fill the class.

19

Ahh I see! I definitely wouldn’t be insulted if I didn’t qualify for merit aid or honors, but I would probably just compare what rutgers offers with what some other schools offer.

Also you’re very right! That’s kind of the reason why I would also be okay with larger schools. My parents said that they think my personality matches smaller eg. LAC colleges a bit more, but I recognize that large colleges offer a lot of unique perspectives and diversity that is really crucial especially in that young adulthood period of exploration.

20

ED would be for your clear first choice that you are comfortable with the cost.

SCEA would be if you are willing to give up other early applications to schools restricted against (YPS restrict against any ED, and EA to other private schools; Georgetown restricts against any ED).

Some schools with EA fill up most of their class (or give out most or all of their scholarship money) in EA, so “regular” can be much more selective.