Chance my daughter (NY resident, 4.0 UW, 1460 SAT, for Public policy, American Studies, Political Science)

Chance Me / Match Me
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This is ok - we started with 109 - and they come off with visits.

But based on what you already know, you can likely pull some off.

But given her disdain for touring (and I get that too), you do need to back off - so it will happen in time. Naturally.

And you already noted about ten apps - so that’s good - and she can do more if she gets through them and isn’t burned out.

As always, this will somehow work out - even when it sees tougher - and with the two or so safeties, she’ll have a home!!!

As for a safety, what’s the closest SUNY - New Paltz or Oneonta or Purchase? I’d add that (for the wanting to be home) just in case. Has she been to summer camp or anything like that?

As for the chance me, I have in message 9 well above. And noted BU does not count legacy (any more).

Best of luck.

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Does she have a safety that is close enough so that she can come home every weekend? While I am not a fan of that idea, it seems your daughter wants that option.

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Not at all. It’s just a plus in that column.

She has several schools she likes as much as Vassar, for different reasons, that are further.
Being close is 1 of the things she likes about Vassar.
Boston is 1 of the things she likes about BU
The Brooks school is 1 of the things she likes about Cornell.
The campus with views of the mountains is one of the things she likes about Amherst.
The collaborative nature is 1 of the things she likes about Brown.

So close to home is 1 reason she likes Vassar, on the list of pros and cons.

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She hasn’t done summer camp. She has done 2 weeks at BU, 2 weeks at Georgetown.

Being close to home is a plus for her, don’t think it’s super high on the list of pluses.
Right now, UCLA is on her list though I suspect she will remove it.

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Then, RD it is. And none that aren’t a complete roll of the dice.

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That’s the issue with public policy. For many schools, it’s just poli sci, and there aren’t many high paying jobs with a BS.

From the right program, there are high earning opportunities in the private sector. Not at all poli sci — strictly public policy. Like investment banks who need people to analyze the effects of public policy on the markets, companies that want lobbyists who can influence public policy, or interface help companies portray themselves as good corporate citizens. Not to mention public / private partnerships.

There aren’t that many public policy programs like that, which is why the degree is worth more from certain select schools over others.

She enjoys living several hours away from us.

Being close to home is a plus, like a school with good dining is a plus, or having a really pretty art museum is a plus.
She doesn’t have any pluses that are make or break.

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If we’re going UCLA, we gotta add IU and Pitt :slight_smile: IU (along with Syracuse) are the top two public affairs schools in the country. Pitt will give her the 5 year MPA option. Both have tons of Jewish students.

I did - I know she’s not applying to UCLA - but both the weather and ocean are nicer!!

But once she removes it - down to 29!!!

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I agree about Pitt and Syracuse. I think she will get in and their programs are strong.

And…Much of this will be on her…job wise, internships, getting to know her profs etc.

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It’s funny - I know a student (not from a target school) who just got a job like that in an elite IB.

His first day, they tell him, you cannot make friends with people at work and our guidance is don’t talk or fraternize - to stay in your zone and do your job.

Three weeks in, a year lease on an apartment, and he’s calling mom every night, upset - knows nobody and is miserable. He just sits at his desk looking frontward all day.

I know, outside of CS, many chance mes are for these kind of roles - and I don’t get it. Mom tells me she thinks it has to do with insider trading rules although she’s unsure.

Just makes me wonder if kids truly know what they’re getting into when they see these big, prolific names.

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This is a misleading statement.

I remember that fairly recently, the Kansas City Chiefs had an offensive lineman who attended and played college football at McGill. Still, if playing in the NFL is your goal, and you have the opportunity to do so, you should attend and play somewhere like Georgia or Ohio State.

Harvard accepts applicants from many different universities, that is true. However, they accept MANY more applicants from certain highly selective schools. This is established in studies like: https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf

For law school, you can’t say where you go as an undergrad doesn’t matter. It does matter. Can you get into Harvard Law from Texas Tech? It is a non-zero chance, just like winning the Powerball.

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It is true that they have a higher amount of students from higher level schools - but I would argue that’s because those same students went to the higher level schools to begin with.

147 schools (out of less than 600 kids) in Harvard’s first year class. Texas Tech isn’t on the list - but Tennessee Tech is, along with U of you name it - Arizona, Memphis, Missouri, and so many more. Schools like Canisisus, Catholid U and WVU.

Yale shows a 5 year - similar schools and others like Youngstown State - they have nearly 170 schools over 5 years.

UVA - in the past years schools like Bama, UGA, Arkansas are amongst their top colleges represented - and more.

Penn - 239 schools - starting with Adelphi, Biola, Pace, U of everything from Kentucky to Nebraska to Southern New Hampshire to Wagner.

So the #s show otherwise. But you are right in concentration, the top schools will send more - because they are the top schools for a reason undergrad - and these same kids who want a T14 law school wanted the top undergrad.

Most couldn’t name 239 colleges - but Penn found them.

The other thing I notice at top law schools - POC are very high - so it might be the Caucasian student is at a huge disadvantage. At Penn, 49%.

I know people say otherwise and they might be right - but when you look at the actual reports from the schools themselves, colleges from all levels (and i’m talking tens of them and more) are represented at our top 14 law schools.

That kid who could score on the 98th percentile for the LSAT was going to a top school to begin with - but many didn’t, and they are still finding their way in.

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You think it is the student, some say it is the school. I think it is likely somewhere in the middle. I just don’t think you can definitively say where you get your undergrad degree doesn’t matter for certain law schools.

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Those high paying jobs in policy you are talking about- they go to Econ and Poli sci majors in addition to the specialized “public policy” jobs. There is nothing sacred about that nomenclature (I’ve hired those people). And they aren’t just in banking- large hospital systems, HMO’s and insurance companies-- they need people who can analyze the impact of a change in legislation in Texas which will impact X number of Medicare patients and Y number of Medicaid patients which will have a Z effect on the company’s bottom line.

Don’t romanticize the name of the major. The core skills- economic analysis, manipulating large datasets (so skilled with R or any of the other statistical packages), understanding how a bill works its way through committee and either dies on the vine or gets advanced, solid understanding of macro economics (interest rates, foreign exchange, what impact does currency swings in Asia have on our European lines of business and how do we help the Central Bank in a particular country understand our concerns). You seem convinced that there’s only one major that teaches these skills. But it’s not.

The most gifted guy I ever hired for a role like this was a Princeton Econ grad. He had two super powers- he wrote incredibly well, and he could plow through a 500 page report or piece of legislation, complete with table and appendix, and figure out the three core findings and what their implications were. His senior thesis (I remember it well because it was totally contrary to the received wisdom at the time) was on the topic of “Does a mandated increase in the minimum wage help or hurt low income Americans”. Detailed econometric analysis and then a review of pending legislation in a bunch of states to prove that- contrary to belief- raising the minimum wage hurts the poor. Just a brilliant policy guy. But an econ major.

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I would not be overly concerned with the name of the major…political science versus policy etc.

I would dig a little deeper (not suggesting you/your daughter are not) and learn more about the internships and jobs that these kids are getting. Keep in mind….its up to her.

Syracuse and Pitt? I have no doubt that many of those kids are successful…they take advantage of opportunities. I also see these as likely schools.

As far as high earning opportunities in the private sector… from the right program. There is nothing wrong with hoping for that…but it is also important to be realistic. That does not mean she won’t be successful.

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Well - look at the schools that are represented at the T14 law schools.

They are admitting kids from hundreds of schools - and look at Harvard in the first year class alone 147 schools of less than 600 kids.

When I was at W&L, we chatted with a prof on campus - and he remarked that his student got a 99% on the LSAT. I asked - where will they go to law school - and his response was anywhere they wanted. Now W&L is a great school - but his comment was based entirely on the LSAT - and I think the LSAT is critical for law school, far more so than an SAT for undergrad.

Today, many have work experience too - and a huge percentage of top law schools are POC.

But I can’t look at law schools lists and the colleges admitting from and dismiss it - but that’s what others seek to do even though the data in front is showing otherwise.

UVA shows counts from school - and it’s interesting that law school is often (but not always) regional - so the biggest contributors will be from nearby. Most are from the NE/Mid Atlantic schools but there’s Arkansas with 5 in this year’s class as an example. Class of 2025, still regional but 6 from George Mason - and 4 from Oklahoma - not sure anyone is calling these powerhouses - and imagine those sending 1 (they don’t list them) - it’s going to a be a lot. A year or two ago - Harvard was showing Cal State LA, as an example - the ultimate commuter school - some really smart kid probably went there to save $$. Sticking with UVA four from U of SC the year prior and the year prior you had Alabama with 7, Mason again, Arizona State, IU, James Madison, Ole Miss, Kentucky, UTD, etc.

UVA doesn’t show schools with under 3 but what they do show - and they are #8 which is why I use them - in class of 2026, they had 144 schools represented, in 2025 131, 133 in 2024, 144 in 2023, and 176 in 2022.

I’m not sure how anyone can look at the #s these colleges are putting out and think other than I do.

But we are all entitled to our opinions.

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Ideally, a safety would have an announced automatic admission (including to major, if applicable) or scholarship criteria that the student meets, and be affordable. In that situation, it is a 100% sure thing.

However, if the school that looks very likely for admission is not able to be seen as a 100% sure thing, a better descriptor would be “likely” rather than “safety”, in which case more than one would be advised if no try “safety” can be found.

Also, one valuable aspect of ED, EA, and early rolling applications is that any affordable admission from such turns the school into a safety. In this case, with ED, the student is done with college applications; with EA or early rolling, the student can drop applications to schools that the student would not ever choose over the schools that admitted.

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Exactly. It’s complicated.
Right now, she has no interest in law school.

Likely just going right to work, and maybe getting a Master’s some day, but not directly. (Subject to change of course).

By the time you’re in your 40’s, your colleges are almost meaningless. But when starting out, they help in direct and indirect ways:

  • the alumni network within the university. The Harvard alumni network can provide opportunities not had at lesser institutions.
    -Graduate schools do consider the competitiveness of the undergrad school in admissions.
    -for more entry level jobs where an employer is looking at 400 political science resumes, a prestigious school can help get that interview.

But put aside all that — that’s secondary. What’s primary is simply what school delivers the academics and atmosphere the student wants.

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Not sure if it’s still under consideration, but they were thinking of making law school test optional.

So with common grade inflation, law schools would have zero objective criteria for admissions. Grades — everyone has a 4.0 or close. No standardized tests.

So the consideration would be a murky mix of where you went to undergrad, what you studied in undergrad, and your personal life story.

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Are you sure that a higher level college can provide you contacts/jobs that others can’t?

My kid blasted resumes off of indeed for her Fall internship in DC with 7 offers, 5 paid and ended up at a think tank - writing and writing and writing - more like transcribing events into AP Style writing - a good skill to learn as I told her:

For Cornell Brooks class of 22/23, 8 found their job on Handshake (Cornell’s indeed - these organizations send to soooooooo many schools), 6 on Internet postings - think indeed. 3 on campus interviewing and a couple each with alumni/profs.

The sample is too small and no doubt there are firms seeking certain schools - but I think the delta is quickly diminishing with the internet and not as great as people think.

For other majors, like CS, the online recruiting vs. faculty/alums is very wide - i.e most done on line.

I have no doubt these high level schools help somewhat but I’m not sure the disparity is near what people think it is - not anymore - especially with so many publics throwing top money at the Ivy caliber kids - and these organizations out there that are dipping their toes see this - and are brining in more and more.

My kid right now is being taught by her most favorite professor ever - and has met ambassadors and others brought in and leaders of groups like the Bush Foundation for China Relations.

Her current prof - with my point being - yes, Cornell, Vassar are awesome - but I’m sure Delaware, Bing and others bring in heavyweights. College of Charleston is on no one’s radar and this is my daughter’s prof - and they have the Fellows and International Scholars program - so more enrichment. My guess is Bing, Delaware, Albany, UMASS - whomever else - do as well.

Bio
Since March 2008, has been a Deputy Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs at the U.S. Department of State, where he is responsible for Russia, Ukraine, Moldova, and Belarus affairs, as well as regional nonproliferation issues.

From 2005-2007 Mr.served on the National Security Council as Director for Europe and Eurasia, with responsibility for coordinating U.S. policy on Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Black Sea region and Caspian energy. Later with the creation of the South and Central Asia Directorate Mr. Merkel was Director for Central Asia.

was Deputy Assistant Secretary for International Affairs at the U.S. Treasury Department from 2003-2005 where he received the Exceptional Service Award, Treasury’s second highest award. Previously he was Senior Professional Staff for Europe and Eurasia on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. has also served as Counselor for International Affairs at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and as Senior Foreign and Defense Policy Advisor for the United States House of Representatives Policy Committee.

Before joining the Government was a director for the Eurasia Foundation and an election analyst for the Joint Election Observation Mission in Tajikistan. He has served as an international election observer throughout Eurasia. Mr. Merkel is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the International Institute of Strategic Studies (London).

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Hadn’t hear that - it would be interesting.

But being as so many high level schools and publics are going back to test mandatory - we can debate the reasons but to me it’s clear they’re letting in kids that maybe, academically, weren’t ready for their schools - but I don’t think we’d be heading toward a TO.

Because of grade inflation, in fact, is why a test is so important.

It’s the one equalizer - but at the undergrad level, it’s coming back, not going away.

I don’t know about Law but I’ve not read that.

I do know law is looking hugely at diversity and they are looking hugely at LSATs - and today at top schools, work experience as well.

Tomorrow - no idea.