Chances/Advice for HPSM

Chance Me / Match Me
1

I’m currently a junior, and I’m stressed out about college after seeing my senior friends’ college results. It’s scary seeing rejections for people who deserve to get into good schools. Looking for advice/chances to (hopefully) ease my nerves, but please be realistic. After writing this I realize it’s super long (sorry!) but I’m not sure which stuff would be important to put on an app and what to leave out.

DEMOGRAPHICS/BACKGROUND:
Sri Lankan male
Well off, but immigrant parents => no legacy anywhere :frowning:
Large public school, affluent white suburb, Missouri

ACADEMICS:
GPA: 4.0 UW, ~4.7 W
Class Rank: school doesn’t rank, but would probably be top 3
Notable classes (outside of APs):
9: Intro Engineering Design
10: Biotech Engineering
11: Independent studies (self-designed classes) in Chemistry (inorganic/physical) and CS (algorithms/data structures),
Calc 3, Linear Algebra
Schedule for senior year is nebulous but will probably be similarly rigorous, will do college level CS/Math/Physics

TESTS:
PSAT: 760 reading, 750 math, 1510/1520 overall
ACT: 35 composite, 36 english, 8/12 essay (this score was from freshman year and I’m retaking it this month)
SAT: will take next year (for National Merit) - not going for a perfect score, but will prepare and hopefully do well
AP: all 5’s so far
9: CS, World
10: Calc BC, Stat, Physics 1, Physics C- Mech, Chem, US Gov, Comparative Gov
11: Bio, Physics 2, Physics C E/M, Euro, Macro, Micro, Spanish Lang, English Lang, Art History

AWARDS:
Important stuff

  • ISEF Finalist (10)
  • USNCO Finalist (10)
  • TEAMS National Qualifier (11) – I think, teacher hasn’t 100% confirmed yet. FWIW I’m the captain
  • USACO Gold (11)
  • Eagle Scout (8)
  • Missouri ARML team qualifier (11) – probably

Minor/Local stuff, FWIW

  • AP National Scholar (10)
  • AIME Qualifier (11)
  • 1st or top 3 in numerous local and school math contests (9-11)
  • state qualifier in GPML (9-10), power round winner at state (9) – it’s a math contest FYI, but not super prestigious
  • Department/Team Awards (chosen as top student in the school): Math (9), Science (10), Debate (9)
  • NSDA Superior Distinction (11) (it’s a debate award for getting >750 points, every round won = 6 points)
  • State Qualifier, Policy Debate (11)
  • Won several local debate tournaments in policy debate / extemporaneous speech (9-11)
  • Won a couple awards at science olympiad (10) - FWIW I won state a couple times in MS, but probably wouldn’t put that on an app

SUMMERS:
9: interned at local video game company
10: Missouri Scholars Academy + interned at a local chem lab (wrote a paper but not for publication)
11: interning with a CS prof who works on internalization of software + online debate camp + online math/physics classes

EC/LEADERSHIP:
Athletics - JV Tennis and XC (10-11)
Debate (9-11) probably will be captain and/or exec next year (exec ≈ president)
NHS (11)
BCP Science Honor Society (11)
MAO Math Honor Society (10-11) - currently VP, will run for President
Rho Kappa Social Studies Honor Society (11)
Spanish Club (9-11) - might run for position next year
Scholar Bowl (9-11)
Science Bowl (9-11)
Club that helps w/ freshman orientation (11) - I guess leading frosh counts as leadership
Chemistry Club (11) - exec (≈ president)
TEAMS engineering competition (10-11) - captain for my team

APPLICATION:
Will probably have decent/strong recs (it’s impossible to know for sure)
I’m a decent writer and will work on essays over the summer

COLLEGE:
Intended Major: CS major w/ minor in history (or some other social science maybe)
Safety: Mizzou
Target: UIUC, UMich, Harvey Mudd, Carnegie Mellon (kinda a reach tbh)
Reach: Stanford, MIT, Harvard, Princeton, UCB, UCLA

QUESTIONS:

  1. What are my chances?
  2. Are there any other schools that I should consider applying to - strong STEM + good humanities/social sciences?
    Note - I put HMC and MIT on this list b/c of access to Pomona and Harvard which are good at HASS
  3. How should I “sell myself” on apps to stand out?
  4. Which awards/ECs are the most important to list and highlight with essays?
  5. What should I do in the next few months to maximize my chances?
    I have a few ideas, but obviously can only do one or two of them:
    * do research, try to get published and/or win science fair (Siemens or Google, based on the timeframe)
    * make apps/sites, try to get notable numbers of users/revenue
    * study up and do math contests (i.e. HMMT) and hope for a miracle
    – I’ve done decently on math w/o studying much, so this is implausible but not impossible…
    – but doesn’t align with career goals
    * do hackathons (for next fall), hopefully win stuff
2
  1. You have strong stats, but that won't guarantee anything except for your safety school and probably your target schools. You have four public schools that may or may not give you any merit scholarships. I would not even consider an OOS public school without serious merit money.
  2. I would add Penn, Cornell, Columbia and UChicago
  3. Overall your EC's read like a laundry list, while they show lots of interest areas you don't stand out in one particular area which will hurt you for your reach schools. Need to add national level awards to stand out.
  4. Your essays will be very important for the reach schools.
  5. Do some research on these colleges and apply ED to your first choice if its available.
3

@bobince

For SMHP reaches:

Strong resume, but your ECs are common. What is your unique narrative? How will you stand amongst the thousands of other kids applying with high grades / test scores / course rigor that are in tennis, debate, math club like you? I’d advise you to focus on something you love and weave a consistent narrative around that in your ECs, essays and LoRs.

Agree strong essays are essential.

4

Thank you both, you’ve given me a lot to think about.

@psywar I’m involved in a ton of stuff but I split most of my time between debate and programming projects (sports and math are just for fun). I was planning on my “narrative” be something along the lines of “socially conscious CS,” which ties together my main ECs and intended major (this isn’t just for college, I also want a career in this area). My internship this summer is especially focused on that theme - building software that makes the internet accessible to speakers of obscure, non-Western languages. I’ve made a couple of major projects, and I will work on strengthening this area in terms of “tangible” achievements. Of the ideas I mentioned in the OP, what do you think would be the best?

@CU123 What national level awards should I go for? The only things I can try to do at this point are Siemens Science Fair, hackathons, and maybe some math contests. Also, what constitutes “national level” – does qualifying for the (inter)national level competition for ISEF/USNCO/USACO/TEAMS not count since I didn’t win? I guess what I’m asking is: how high must I rank nationally for something to be meaningful on apps?

5

You were an Eagle Scout in 8th grade? how is that possible?

6

At this point there is little to be done but continue what your doing and do it well. Problem is you aren’t meaningfully hooked in any regard so you fall in with the rest of the applicants. There will be thousands of profiles just like yours, some marginally better some marginally worse. The only way to differentiate yourself is to let them know through essays what you really care about (and another laundry list of I’m passionate about XYZ is not the right answer here). Get a book on how to write a college application essay and start writing.

P.S. Here is the problem with applicants with great stats, and you do have great stats. The applicant feels like the stats should get them into any school, but they won’t. They will get you into safety schools, and some target schools, but will fail to get you into any reach school. As you can see, most of the applicants that get into multiple reach schools have some sort of hook. You don’t, so hopefully you get into one reach school, which is quite possible if you put enough effort into it.

7

You’re definitely a competitive applicant. However, being competitive does not guarantee admission whatsoever. I personally know people who were ISEF Finalists and failed to get into the top school of their choice (Harvard). Granted, they did get accepted into several other top schools. My advice for you would be to narrow down your goals. Like @psywar said, you need a coherent narrative. I wouldn’t waste your time or the space on the Common App listing that you were head of the Spanish Club or that you did JV sports. If you’re going for a CS major, I think creating some sort of app and getting publicity/a lot of downloads would help a ton. You already have the ISEF Finalist as a huge award (in addition to others) and creating a successful app would show that you’re entrepreneurial and creative. You could try becoming an STS Semi-Finalist or Finalist next year, and if you do get deferred early by a college, placing in STS will be a huge boost.

On a side note, you should start planning what you want to list on your Common App. If I were you, here’s what I would do:

Awards:

  1. Intel Finalist
  2. USNCO Finalist
  3. TEAMS National Qualifier
  4. USACO Gold
  5. AP National Scholar

Activities:

  1. Research (whatever you did for Intel)
  2. Your app - if you choose to make it and if it does reasonably well
  3. Missouri ARML team qualifier (you can put an award in the activities category)
  4. Eagle Scout (this is good to have since it separates you from being a pure STEM student)
  5. Debate captain
  6. TEAMS engineering captain
  7. Math team (or whatever you did to win those math awards)
  8. Intern with CS professor

As of now your activities are the (slightly) weaker part, although they’re still amazing. Perhaps try to join some organization that relates to Computer Science so you can throw it on the app later on. Or you could try to get a normal job over the summer, maybe at like a local restaurant or department store. Something that is normal but requires hard work. I wouldn’t add any of your “fluffy” activities that are insubstantial (the honors societies, athletics, scholar bowl, and science bowl).

Write essays with PERSONALITY so you don’t come across as a robot. Also I disagree with the first poster - you definitely have more national awards than most students applying to HPSM! You really are in good shape, if you make that app or qualify for another competition than that will be fantastic. Good luck!

8

Everything looks good, but take out the Eagle Scout. Schools do not care what you did in middle school and unless you remained active in BSA in high school (Hi-Adventure camp, Eagle Palms, Order of the Arrow, Venturing) it doesn’t matter at all.

A poster was wondering about someone earning Eagle as an 8th grader. Theoretically it is possible but hard. My son’s friend got it freshman year in high school and a Scout in my son’s Troop earned Eagle as well in his 1st semester freshman year in high school. Unfortunately they ended up as ‘sash and dash’ Scouts and became inactive.

OP, are you still active in your Troop? My son is a senior, got into WashU ED this year, and is still active in his Troop (OA, has 3 Palms and is working on a 4th Palm, and took leadership positions when most Scouts his age in the Troop showed up only to get signatures on their Eagle paperwork). And he plans to find a regular Troop or a Venture crew at school since he doesn’t age out until December so he can continue in BSA.

9

You should also put WashU on the list, but unless you show interest they may think you’re using them as a backup.

10

@CU13 Thanks so much for the help. You say not to add “fluff,” but should I mention that anywhere at all? I do spend a lot of time on those activities, albeit not as much as debate/CS, so I feel like it should go somewhere, at the very least to explain why I didn’t have time to be better at my main activities. Could I put it in the additional info section? FWIW, these show leadership, and I do have some awards in them. I guess what I’m asking is – is it bad to put these because of it displaces better that can be mentioned, or because including this info will make my application weaker?

Obviously, I’ve never submitted college apps before. For the activities section, do I need to separate things out (ISEF research, app, internship) or can I lump them together into one and list all the details? I’ve also made a bunch of smaller projects, so listing “CS” or “programming” or something like that as an EC would allow me to mention it.

Also, my school doesn’t have a formal “math team” but you can just sign up for stuff and go. Is it acceptable to just put “math competitions” as an activity? Also should ARML be separate or can it be combined? BTW, these technically count towards Mu Alpha Theta, so would it make more sense to list that as the activity?

Unfortunately, there isn’t a CS club at my school and it’s way to late in the game to start one. I could definitely do hackathons and I will probably get a software internship in the fall. At this point, is it worth it to try for Siemens? Results would be out by the time EA is due.

11

@Hamurtle I was active in scouting freshman year and a little bit sophomore year, so does that count? I did get OA and 3 palms, and I went to high adventure. Also got a bunch of random scouting awards.

It’s not going to be the focus of my application, but I feel like it’s something worth mentioning somewhere. Do you really think it would hurt me to mention it?

I’m pretty familiar with WUSTL because so many people I know go there. Their CS department is pretty weak (compared to UMich and UIUC) and super bio focused, according to friends who are CS majors there. IMO it’s not worth the money.

12

Oops @doorrealthe meant to tag you on this comment: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/20531967/#Comment_20531967

Sorry. Also, how notable/successful does an app need to be for it to be worthwhile? 10k downloads? 100k? I want to set a realistic but noteworthy goal.

13

@bobince if you have some Scouting experience during in high school it can be mentioned. Of course the Common App will ask you how many years you were active. Don’t make it a primary focus.

You’re right about WashU and their focus. My son is planning to be a Biology/History dual major and it does seem like Biology is their primary focus, although interestingly enough the founder of Square got his CS degree from WashU.

For an Ivy that is good in CS you might want to add Cornell to your list. Also add Georgia Tech too and if you want a safety of sorts, UW-Seattle is supposedly good in CS as well. Good luck!

14

@Hamurtle thanks, that’s reassuring.

I’m not saying that WUSTL is bad or anything, but I have cheaper, better options that I’m more likely to get into. I wasn’t planning on Georgia Tech (bad at humanities) but Cornell is definitely on the list. Is UW-Seattle good outside of CS? I’ve heard good things about their CS program but not much else.

15

@bobince

Space is very tight on the Common App, and honestly, you can design your application any way that you like if it reads well. For example, I put down as one of my top activities “Published Writer” and then I said in the short description they allow you: “See Additional Information section.” In the Additional info section, that is where I elaborated on what/where I published. And yes, you can lump things together but only lump if you’re running out of space. I’d lump the smaller projects you did and then explain them in the Info section, but I wouldn’t lump the ISEF and app together. You want to highlight them separately and make sure that the admissions officers recognize how good they are. ISEF should be an award and something like “Research” should be an activity. Obviously your research led to your award but I think it’s important enough that you can put them in both the awards and activities section.

If you did put a lot of time in your lesser activities then that’s fine. Put them near the bottom of the list of activities, with more major ones up top. Remember, you want to define yourself precisely. There are people who get accepted who are very well rounded, but IMO it’s easier if you demonstrate that you want to major in Computer Science by having most of your awards/activities relate to CS. Take my application for an example. I didn’t even have a 3.9 UW GPA, I was maybe rank 20-30 in a class of 500+, I didn’t win any super major awards, and I’m a white guy from a competitive state. Basically I’m completely unhooked. But despite me having to send Dartmouth a sub 700 score on a subject test, I still got accepted RD. I truly believe it’s because about 85% of my application was centered around my interest in writing so admissions officers saw I enjoyed the activities that I did.

Going back to your application, you don’t want to displace anything that is related to your overall interest in CS. It is totally fine to put “math competitions” or Mu Alpha Theta as an activity. ARML can be combined in as well. It’s up to you if you want to try for Siemens - personally I’m not familiar with these science competitions so I’m not sure what Siemens entails. I think the app should be your top priority. I think having a “successful” app can be defined in a few ways. First, by number of downloads. If you make some game that gains popularity and hits 10k downloads, that’s great! If you make an app that is a service, maybe you get a couple hundred downloads and get published in your town’s newspaper. If the numbers aren’t great, don’t mention the numbers. Describe how the app is innovative and how it helps people in some way. That might actually be better than the sheer number of downloads.

16

I would include the University of Washington on the list if you are interested in history as well. It’s graduate history program is ranked #24 by US News and World Reports and the school is also highly ranked. UM-Twin Cities and UW-Madison are also 2 public schools highly rated in STEM/Humanities that should be added to your list as matches/near safeties.

17

Washington (like Cal, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Texas, Minnesota, North Carolina, etc.) is strong across a wide range of subjects:

http://www.washington.edu/news/2017/04/03/uw-lands-at-no-9-with-45-subjects-ranked-in-the-top-10-in-center-for-world-university-rankings-inaugural-subject-list/

http://publicuniversityhonors.com/rankings-academic-departments-private-elites-vs-publics/

http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~jnewton/nrc_rankings/nrc1.html#TOP60

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/04/04/universities-investing-the-most-in-research-and-development/4/

http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/09/28/uw-ranked-among-the-top-five-most-innovative-universities-in-the-world-by-reuters/

Might be worth looking into, particularly its Honors Program:

http://depts.washington.edu/uwhonors/apply/freshman/faq/

18

@doorrealthe Thank you, that’s super helpful. I’m thinking for activities I’ll put CS into three broader categories and then lump less important stuff together. Does this look about right?

  1. Computer Science Research (current internship, ISEF)
  2. Competitive Programming (USACO, maybe some other contest I do over the summer)
  3. Software Engineering (apps, hackathons, freshman year internship)
  4. Math Contests (ARML, AIME, misc local stuff)
  5. Debate (state qual, superior distinction, outstanding novice)
  6. TEAMS Engineering team (captain, nats qual/state champs)
  7. Chemistry Club (USNCO, summer year research)
  8. Mu Alpha Theta (leadership, tutoring, outstanding freshman)
  9. Scouting (Eagle Scout/palms, misc awards, SPL, OA)
  10. Sports (JV Tennis, JV XC)
    Additional Info - misc stuff, if space allows - NHS, BCP, RK, Science Bowl, Scholar Bowl

Obviously, I’ll have to pare this down a bit, but I feel like this list is now more focused than before, and looks less like a “laundry list.”

@UWfromCA @Hamurtle I will definitely look into it, considering that I need broader options for match schools aside from UIUC and UMich. UW seems really promising, especially since I can probably get in (unlike HPMS).

19

That looks good! You certainly do a lot and I understand that you want to list the ones that are important to you. Just make sure that Admissions Officers see the broad narrative that you weave throughout your whole application. Honestly I wouldn’t include the JV sports - I did multiple sports and I never included them in my application. Only do things that relate to CS, show leadership, or show some special quality you have.

20

You asked for realism, so I am here to burst your bubble. Apologies in advance, as I am sure you are just trying to get ahead of the pack like so many others. I am not trying to be mean, just realistic.

First, you know you are an exceptionally well-qualified candidate for any school in the country. If you are worried because your friends didn’t get into HYPSM, then I can’t do anything to quell your worries. You know the odds are slim. You know that amazing candidates are rejected from those colleges every year. Your competition is fierce and a spot at one of those schools is just as likely to go to a poor inner-city kid who manages to do well against all the odds as it is to you. In fact, the kid I just described will possibly have an advantge over you at those colleges. So yes, if you choose to worry about getting into one of those tippy top schools, then that is the worry of your choice and it is well-founded.

If I were in your shoes, I would choose to put that energy towards solving some bigger issue in the world. You are clearly extremely intelligent and you could do some real good with your mind. In fact, do something positive for others with all that intelligence rather than fretting about what might happen in a year. Solve some kind of problem. That will make you stand out far more than all the other things you do.

If you want to study CS at Michigan, the school has a 16% acceptance rate. It’s a reach. So is Harvey Mudd, with an under 15% acceptance rate. In my opinion, any school with an acceptance rate under 20% is a reach for all. These colleges practice hollistic admissions and can choose whoever they like, so you already know that what you offer is no guarantee of a place. Having said that, I imagine you will get into at least one mega-reach school, but take a look at this guy: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1876770-what-did-i-do-wrong-p1.html
I hope we don’t see a post from you in a year, complaining that you ONLY got into Wash U or similar though, because I have seen quite a few of those recently.

To give you practical advice, your activities section should emphasize what is most important to you. In all honesty, colleges are not going to be impressed that you are the president of five clubs. Are you equally interested in all five clubs, and do you devote the same amount of time to all of them? Be honest. Focus your energy on two or three things that you like the best. Show your interests, be likable. Colleges want to admit people they like.

Get recs from teachers who really like you, and who you like in return. That is the most important thing to consider when asking for a rec. And don’t ask ten teachers. Ask two. Don’t submit extra recs, because it is annoying, unless there is someone who can say something else about you that no one else can. Recs are VERY important. Write a great essay. Your stats alone will not get you in. You don’t need more AP classes. At the level you are at, it’s the ECs, recs, and essays that are going to get you in. And the special sauce. What’s special about you? Show them what it is. Make them think they can’t get it from anyone else. That’s what you need to do to get in.