I am a 17 year old Scottish student planning on applying to both Harvard and MIT for undergraduate study beginning in 2016. I was curious as to how my chances of getting into these colleges/universities would be evaluated by American students (I’m assuming most people here are American), and so I’ve listed below my achievements. I am fully aware of the sheer amount of highly qualified applicants that are turned down by these institutions - however, I do think I stand out. Any feedback is appreciated (apologies for the length of the thread btw).
As I’ve detailed my achievements, I have, where possible, provided information in order to put into context these achievements.
Last year, I was selected as the 'Top Academic Student' of my year (my age group) for obtaining the best exam results among my peers.
In every exam I have sat, to date, I have achieved an A grade - an A1, in fact, which is a sort-of 'upper A' or 'A+' in Scottish education - which would translate to a 4.0 GPA, if Scottish education used the GPA system.
I have self-taught myself entire courses designed to be learned over a year; I have independently learned the Maths, Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Computing courses that are studied at my age, studying each course for a week or so. A student self-teaching themselves an entire course is a rarity (never mind several) - I have never heard of anyone doing this, and neither have any of my teachers.
The only subjects I am actually taught in school are English and Physics; everything else I have either already taught myself, or my school does not offer it. About 70% of my school time consists of classes where I am sitting at the back of class doing whatever I want, due to having learned the courses I should be getting taught.
I will be sitting a total of 10 exams at the end of the school year (in 2 months, in fact). At my age, the norm is 5 exams, with the smartest people (I'm talking top 5%) sitting 6 or 7 at most. In fact, 10 exams in one year has never been done in Scottish history. If I achieve an A in every exam (which all of my teachers predict me to) it would probably make the news, and it would definitely be a record in Scottish education.
I am studying with older students, having learned so many of the courses studied at my age. In fact, I am studying more courses at the level of the older students, than any of them are themselves.
I will be leaving school one year early (after my exams in 2 months) due studying at the level of older students.
I have recently sat the SAT II Chemistry, and I achieved an 800 in my first try. I prepared for the test within the space of a week (though I already knew most of the material from my school studies). I have, as a matter of fact, not been taught ANY of the chemistry covered in the test - I have learned everything independently.
I could go on, but I think that summarises pretty well my academic achievements. I should further stress that the amount of subjects I am doing is highly abnormal, and the fact that I am teaching myself over half of the material is, too.
Regarding extracurriculars, I lift weights, and I’ve volunteered for 4 months, and that’s pretty much it. I think I’m greatly lacking in this aspect, and I do know American universities/colleges are very considerate of extracurriculars in their admissions processes. However, here in the UK there’s a huge cultural difference, in that high-school sport etc is fairly uncommon, and no way near as significant as in the US, therefore I think that acts, to a certain degree, as an excuse on my part. UK universities also generally don’t consider extracurriculars as important; they are a bonus, but academic achievement is much more important.
So, what do you think of my chances of getting into Harvard/MIT?
You mineswell have no ECs.
Top American colleges consistently reject bookworms. If these “exams” you refer to are the caliber of the USAMO or ACS Olympiad, then you have a small chance of acceptance based on academic acheivement.
But, life is not a school forever, and this is why you must have ECs. You also seem to have misconceptions about what ECs actually are. EC broadly refers to anything you do to develop your interests outside of school, not just sports.
And, I must remind you, American universities are looking for the top 0.1% who have clearly shown their potential by expanding their life outside of acedemics.
The exams are Scottish exams. I’ve not mentioned their actual names as American students would not be familiar with them, but, to provide more detail, I am studying 4 Advanced Higher courses, which are the university entrance examinations, and 6 Higher courses. For my age, doing ANY Advanced Highers is rare never mind 4. Oh, and the entrance requirements for Cambridge and Oxford, the UK equivalent of Harvard, is 3 As at Advanced Higher level. If I get 4 As, I’ll be achieving more than this, one year early.
I’m not arrogant lol, it just comes across like that simply because I’m putting into context my achievements. Of course I have to mention what is normally expected of a Scottish student my age etc - otherwise how could my chances be accurately judged?
Regarding ECs - I’ll hopefully be selected for a range of internships and science placements I’ve applied to for summer. I also hope to work for the whole
I hate to be the one breaking this to you, but with those extracurriculars you’d need to be a worldwide top-50 student to get in at Harvard or MIT.
Each of those schools has about 200 spots for internationals in its freshman class. In a given year, about half will be athletes, “influential people” (sons and daughters of prime ministers/tycoons/etc), or will have extracurricular achievements that are half a tier below those of someone like Malala. And all the people in these categories will have very good academics as well.
Of the remaining 100 or so, there will be a number who are very well-rounded (which for these universities means they’re “only” extremely good in their academics, extracurriculars, and other factors such as income bracket, ethnicity, country of origin etc.), and then there will be some spots for students who are academics-only. If you plan on getting in based on your academics, and your academics alone, you had better have national-level recognition. That means you need to be the best or second-best student in the UK, with one or more national (or international) awards to prove it.
The overall admission rate for international students at these schools is 2-3%, and the vast majority of students who are accepted have a far stronger portfolio of extracurricular activities. Your chances, unless there’s something that would really show you’re a world-class student (see the previous paragraph), are slim.
NotVerySmart, there is no national award in the UK for exam results. If there was, I’d most likely stand a damn good chance of getting it; the number of subjects I’m studying, 10, has NEVER been done in Scotland. If I get 10 A grades, which my teachers predict me to, that’s pretty much a record - I may even get ‘national recognition’ in the form of being in the news. Get 5 As here and you’re considered extremely smart, lol. Oxford and Cambridge, universities as prestigious as Harvard, expect 3 As at Advanced Higher level from Scottish students (I believe Harvard admissions officer will, to some extent, take into consideration what these two universities ask of Scottish students). I will (most likely) be achieving 4 Advanced Highers within the next 2 months. And I will have taught these courses to myself, not to mention I’m sitting these exams a whole year early. I do realise my extracurriculars let me down, but I have a whole year to work on them since I’m leaving school a year early.
CaliCash,
I live in Scotland. I’m not sure if you realise, but we do not normally sit SATs here. I do have an 800 in SAT Chemistry, and I have a year to sit more (I’m taking SAT Physics in May).
No worries. I have a whole year of no school to dedicate to ECs.
That statement undermines the whole Scottish and English education systems. You should probably do some research
Hmm.
You’re attempting to compare an INTERNATIONAL student’s academic accomplishments - the key word being INTERNATIONAL - to a domestic applicants? Seriously?
NotVerySmart, there is no national award in the UK for exam results. If there was, I’d most likely stand a damn good chance of getting it; the number of subjects I’m studying, 10, has NEVER been done in Scotland. If I get 10 A grades, which my teachers predict me to, that’s pretty much a record - I may even get ‘national recognition’ in the form of being in the news. Get 5 As here and you’re considered extremely smart, lol. Oxford and Cambridge, universities as prestigious as Harvard, expect 3 As at Advanced Higher level from Scottish students (I believe Harvard admissions officer will, to some extent, take into consideration what these two universities ask of Scottish students). I will (most likely) be achieving 4 Advanced Highers within the next 2 months. And I will have taught these courses to myself, not to mention I’m sitting these exams a whole year early. I do realise my extracurriculars let me down, but I have a whole year to work on them since I’m leaving school a year early.
CaliCash,
I live in Scotland. I’m not sure if you realise, but we do not normally sit SATs here. I do have an 800 in SAT Chemistry, and I have a year to sit more (I’m taking SAT Physics in May).
No worries. I have a whole year of no school to dedicate to ECs.
That statement undermines the whole Scottish and English education systems. You should probably do some research
Hmm.
You’re attempting to compare an INTERNATIONAL student’s academic accomplishments - the key word being INTERNATIONAL - to a domestic applicant’s? Seriously?
FIrst of all, I agree with everyone’s opinion up above me. You need to take a breath and realize you asked for opinions. You may have self taught yourself all these classes, but lots of other kids do that too. Why can’t you take AP exams to show how smart you really are, OR, take subject tests in all these classes, to prove how well you have self taught yourself. I will give you an example. My son-17 AP classes, 10 perfect scores on AP exams, he will take 8 this spring, as he taught himself Japanese this year. He is #1/402, 36 ACT, EC and leadership out the wazoo, and state and national stuff. Deferred by MIT. Welcome to reality. You may be smart. EVERYONE applying to these schools are. You have NO meaningful long term EC’s. sorry. it’s the truth. No volunteer work, really, no competitions etc. You will be a long shot. Find some incredible EC you can get passionate about, and maybe try to find some kind of international competion to compete in. You need to be a more “holistic” candidate. Good luck.
ZBD5421, there’s no such thing as AP classes in Scotland. I’ll do as you say and take subject tests - I plan on taking at least 2 more. I have a year to invest time solely in ECs - hopefully I’ll become a stronger applicant in that aspect. Thanks for the feedback, it’s very helpful.
It doesn’t matter what you normally do. For admission into these American universities, you need to take the SAT.
No, that will not work. They are looking for several years of ECs. You do not have that.
My statement does not undermine the Scottish education system. What you are saying you accomplished is no different than an American student having a 4.0 GPA at the #1 school in the country with 5s on 10 different AP exams and a 2400 on the SAT. And guess what? That student will still probably get rejected.
Yup.
Yes I am attempting to compare an INTERNATIONAL student’s academic accomplishments - the key word being INTERNATIONAL - to a domestic applicant’s. Seriously. International students typically have to be more qualified than that of domestic students. The quality of your ECs is far below that of a typical domestic applicant. Admitted international students usually are recipients of a national or international award and do far more than just wrestle.
OP, I know the response so far have been quite a blow to your ego. But international students have to be outstanding to get into the schools you listed.
I’d disagree with points #3 and 4 made by CaliCash. However.
1. It doesn't matter where you live. Harvard and MIT require the SAT or ACT.
2. Good. Do that. But colleges won't be especially impressed with lots of ECs that you've taken part in for only a single year-they want to see a long-term commitment to some of them. This may be a problem for you. I know in the UK extracurriculars don't play a huge role (personally I think it's a far more sane system), but that won't be an "excuse" to US colleges. Harvard had nearly 40,000 applicants last year, so they can afford to be picky.
5. Yes, CaliCash is comparing an international student's portfolio to a domestic applicant's. He's right. The bar is much, much higher for international applicants, because while there are a few million domestic high school kids who could apply for the 1700-1800 spots that go to domestic applicants, students the world over apply for the ~200 spots that are open to internationals. If you have a portfolio that would result in rejection for a domestic applicant, there is no way you'll get in as an international applicant. Work on those extracurriculars, because they aren't up to scratch.
I also want to clear up a few other points, some from my first post, some from your reply.
-I’m not really referring to national awards for exam results. I’m referring to awards like math competitions (e.g. the ISMTF), essay-writing competitions (e.g. the Peterhouse prize that Oxford and Cambridge sponsor), major science competitions, etc. There, you’ve got at least two examples that are available in the UK (The ISMTF’s senior competition for this year was held in London just a few weeks ago. I know because I was there).
-I have some very bad news for you. The US system is saturated with applications from students who have top grades in 10 or 15 AP classes (the most advanced study available at most high schools) when the normal number is 3-5. This has led colleges to ignore classes beyond a certain level. If you take only 2, they’ll regard that as a problem, but if you take 8 rather than 10 or 10 rather than 15, they couldn’t care less.
I gather the classes you’re taking are more advanced than AP courses, but the same caveat applies: US colleges are starting to ignore anything beyond a certain volume. This trend has been described in publications such as the NY Times (the paper of record in the US). You may find that your considerable volume of courses will matter less than you’d hoped.
-Harvard and MIT could not care less what Oxford or Cambridge requires. They care about the things they hold to be important in their student body, not what UK schools look for. It’s another form of the “we know better than the rest of the world” mentality that’s common in the US, but that’s what you’ll have to deal with.
Your academics are excellent (stellar, no doubt) but every applicant to Harvard/MIT has very good academics. The recruited athletes and sons/daughters of influential figures, who are generally the worst students of the bunch, will still have well above-average academic results. Again, unless you consider yourself at least a top-100 student worldwide, you cannot get in on academics alone.
I already KNOW I need to take SATs. I’ve already took one, which should implicate this.
Hmm. Fair point. One solid year of ECs will not harm my application though.
You said the quality of my academics does not stand out from any - ANY - domestic applicant. I can’t bring myself to believe that my academics are worse than every domestic applicants’, considering I’m studying more subjects than has ever been studied in Scotland.
Hmm.
I meant in the sense that you are comparing two different education systems and sets of qualifications. Assuming you stated ‘No domestic student gets in with what you have’ in the sense that no domestic student gets in with the EQUIVALENT of what I have: I doubt you have an extensive knowledge of Scottish qualifications, and therefore any comparison on your part isn’t valid. Assuming you meant it literally: no domestic student has Scottish qualifications… lol.
Regarding extracurriculars, do you think the requirement of extracurriculars would be lessened for me, in the sense that the admissions officer(s) would take into account that, being in the UK - where there is very little (if any) focus on extracurriculars - I don’t have as many opportunities as domestic applicants may have? Or rather, would they consider in their decision the fact that, in the UK, it simply isn’t the norm for students to participate in a vast range of extracurriculars? I believe the answer to these questions would be, to some extent, yes, but what do you think?
I’ll look into the ISMTF and the Peterhouse Prize. Thanks for mentioning them.
In terms of improving my ECs, I’ve applied to several science/research placements for this summer. I have also applied to a Year in Industry programme, through which I may (or may not) be able to secure a year-long job in an engineering/science company. I’d be making a good start to improving my ECs if I was accepted into both of these, right?
Oh, and an extracurricular activity I forgot to mention: I tutor several students form my school, and have done so for over 3 months. I do get paid but it’s half the standard price of a ‘professional’ tutor.
Ok. You taught yourself computing courses? Big woop. You have to watch out for other applicants like me that have been developers for a long time. Most of us taught ourselves how to code. HTML, CSS, C, C++, Javascript, mySQL, Objective-C. The list goes on. Lots of my friends who are Seniors and Juniors, will apply to Harvard and MIT. We have worked on several apps for iOS and some of them have their own app on the App store.
We don’t code because we’re geniuses, we code because it’s easy.
ItsHydro, that was one example of what I’ve taught myself, I’m not a computing fanatic and do not intend to study computing in the future if in any way you got that impression. You seem to excel in the subject - well done to you.
@barankarakus1 Ok, but include that in your application to MIT, it would help. You do sound very qualified for MIT with your stats, so you have a very good chance of getting in. MIT is all academics, which you excel in, clearly. Good luck!
@barankarakus1 Paid tutoring is work experience. Extracurriculars are competitions, hobbies etc. or unpaid volunteering.
It looks like you’ll improve your extracurricular activities before applying, which should help. But you will be measured by the same standard when colleges look at your ECs.
I’m also an international student, and the country I live in has virtually no tradition of extracurricular activities (university acceptance isn’t just based off grades, an interview, and some extracurricular element, as in the UK: it’s based 100% on grades. Get a certain number of points, and you’re in). But, according to my guidance counselor, the expectations of US colleges remain exactly the same. By virtue of applying as an international candidate, they’re actually higher, because the applicant pool is so strong.
The thing you seem to be overlooking is that, If you’re 17 now, your application will be due in November (if you apply anywhere early action or early decision) or December (if you apply regular decision). That means the ISMTF might not be a possibility-as far as I know, there’s only one competition a year, and by the time the next one takes place your applications will already be in. The Peterhouse is still open, however.
