<p>So, mini, you do vote in favor of “cut and run.” That’s fine, and I believe it is what many liberals choose. It’s just that I DO think it will create more problems in the future, a la Afghanistan after the Soviets gave up. If you read any of the comments from Al Qaeda regarding the recent election, you will note that they are celebrating it as a win for them. Our withdrawal will demonstrate the weakness of our will and commitment, and you’d better hope the next 9/11 doesn’t happen in Seattle.</p>
<p>AllMusic, I think you meant hyper-bowl-y. :)</p>
<p>sjmom, it’s not surprising that Al Queda is celebrating the mid-term elections as a win for them. Didn’t George Bush insist over and over again that it would be? It doesn’t matter if it’s true; they believe it because he said it. That’s pretty scary when you think about it. The Republicans wanted the terrorists to believe that America was easy pickings if the Democrats won. The worst thing of this is that Congress really has no control over the timetable of withdrawal from Iraq. Bush has already said that it’s completely an executive decision, and he will stay even if only Laura and Barney support him. So the whole “terrorists will win” line was bogus from the start.</p>
<p>A good friend of mine makes the point that if we get out of the business of micromanaging the Iraq government, it will free up troops and resources to chase Al Queda. All the Iraq adventure has done is to divert resources and energy from the hunt from Bin Laden. Time to get back on course.</p>
<p>The terrorists are not stupid, Conyat. Perhaps they are celebrating the democrat’s victory because this government has made it tough for terrorism to exist and the terrorists know that the democrats want to get rid of the many programs that do infact make it tough for terrorism to succeed.</p>
<p>Golani, the fact that you are 17 and not yet an American citizen explains it all…Better get some solid facts about what it actually means to be in the military and spend some time as one of us before you shoot off your mouth. You don’t just get a commission and grab a gun and go to war. It’s a lot more than that. At least that’s what my veteran dad tells me. Virginia is quite a “military” state…been around it all my life. Peace out. And no, my dad does not support my views entirely.</p>
<p>Golani, I have to ask how do YOU know what the terrorists want…this is getting a bit scary dude. Seems like you are sure of what they think…uh oh…</p>
<p>“this government has made it tough for terrorism to exist”</p>
<p>Absolutely not true. The invasion of Iraq was the best thing that could have happened to terrorists. It is driving their recruiting efforts. Terrorism is on the upswing as a result of what this government has done.</p>
<p>Fact is, the Democrats elected to Congress have more personal experience fighting terrorists than the Republicans they will replace.</p>
<p>If terrorism is on the upswing how do you explain no terror attacks on US soil since 911 or waning of suicide bombings in Israel for instance.</p>
<p>Its not hard to figure out what terrorists want. They want you dead, they want me dead, they want Israel to not exist, they want America to become a islamic country or at least change our values completely.</p>
<p>The fact that I do not have US citizenship or have not served in the army does not mean much. Why do you have to personally attack me I do not understand. It has nothing to do with the issues. But it is interesting that those soldiers in Iraq are signing up for a new tour of duty in extremely high numbers.</p>
<p>Here’s a thought Golani…why don’t you hoof it over to Israel and apply for citizenship there. I mean what, with all your ranting about religious stuff, health care reform, torturing of prisoners, (at the tender age of 17, to boot!!). Man, you seem to know more than George W for someone who is only sort of visiting here. I tried to give you my college sophmore opinion and you basically surmised that my thoughts about the war were summed up in “cut and run” and furthermore deduced that I am a liberal. You have personally attacked many on cc because the don’t feel as you do. Just a tip dude, that’s not what it means to be an American. Your ass will get eaten, friggen eaten alive in ANY ROTC program at ANY university in the United States of American. If you don’t like it here, and don’t like our freedoms to have different opinions, why don’t you take your own advice and cut and run. The REAL problem in American is that we have indiscriminantly let extremists come into our country. You, Golani have proven to be one. Take your war monger, kill all at any cost, uneducated self, and crusie on. Peace…peace out. You have been direspectful to posters that you KNOW are adults and that is so not cool.</p>
<p>"So, mini, you do vote in favor of “cut and run.” </p>
<p>YES, and more - I don’t know why you consistently refuse to look at the rest of what I suggest (which was quite a bit more than simply pulling troops out.) And I believe George Bush has come to the same conclusion - the only difference is in the timing.</p>
<p>Look - I travel back and forth regularly to south Asia. I talk to a lot of people. You have no idea how little moral standing the U.S. has there. It’s not a matter of whether we should (let’s reserve that conversation for another time), but how much we do. Everyone knows about the million people killed by Bill Clinton, including the half a million children - more than double the number of people killed by Saddam Hussein in 30 years - and the fact that the Europeans charged him with genocide (leading to “oil for food”). Everyone knows that the warlords have returned to Afghanistan, and that opium production is at an all-time high. Everyone knows that the U.S. supports a dictator with nuclear weapons in Pakistan (and are afraid that Islamic fundamentalists will end up with nuclear weapons as a result - it is my Islamic friends who fear that the most). Everyone knows about the pork dishes served in the dining rooms three meals a day where Muslims are forced to eat in the Green Zone. Everyone knows about the fact that the Israelis used billions of dollars in U.S. made, and U.S. paid for weapons in making a million Lebanese homeless. Everyone knows that there were virtually no Islamic terrorists in Iraq under Saddam Hussein (and now there are more than ten thousand.) The list could go on. And everyone (or at least a large majority) approve of killing Americans - they believe that is now a moral thing to do. Mothers with children believe that is a good thing to do. Old ladies and old men approve. Teenagers approve.</p>
<p>I’m sure there are good reasons for all of this in some people’s minds, but the sum total is that the U.S. has no moral authority to solve ANYONE’s problems in that part of the world, and more troops won’t add one iota to it.</p>
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<p>Even our own government admits that terrorism is on the upswing; there’s no “If” about it. </p>
<p>"The number of terrorist attacks worldwide increased nearly fourfold in 2005 to 11,111, with strikes in Iraq accounting for 30 percent of the total, according to statistics released by U.S. counterterrorism officials yesterday.</p>
<p>Although only half of the incidents resulted in loss of life, more than 14,600 noncombatants were killed, a majority of them in Iraq alone…"</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/28/AR2006042802181_pf.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/28/AR2006042802181_pf.html</a></p>
<p>If suicide bombings are down in Israel, it’s because they’ve shifted to other countries. Redistributing terrorist attacks from Israel to other countries shouldn’t drive US foreign policy, especially when it results in a many-times over increase in terrorism. And BTW, it is simply not true that there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9-11. You simply aren’t counting abortion clinic bombings and other examples of homegrown terrorism.</p>
<p>I do find it kind of interesting that you are changing your citizenship to American at exactly the age that Israel would require you to serve in the military for the next three years.</p>
<p>and who said the left was invested in DEFEAT?</p>
<p>Pedsox I surmised your thoughts as cut and run because that is how you expressed yourself in writing. Maybe you were not thinking that, but your writing sure reflected that.</p>
<p>My citizenship has nothing to do with this debate. If I told you I were an American citizen instead of an American permanent resident with a greencard it would not change the logic in my arguments. Of alot of people here I think I really know what it means to be American and free and safe at that. You have no idea where my family came from the people and governments who attacked my family. You know nothing of that. The real reason I appreciate my freedom so much is because I personally know from my family what the freedom is worth. The sacrifices you have to make for that freedom are not easy but they are neccessary. I don’t take it from granted. You pedsox brought up torture so lets see. I am not willing to spare a terrorists some sleep deprivation or waterboarding so that 100 people can get blown up elsewhere.</p>
<p>As for you Conyat, you would be surprised to learn I am not an Israeli citizen either so you can keep guessing, sure I have lived there, and visit alot, but I aint a citizen so again guessing my legal status isnt going to further this conversation. As to say that terrorism shifted from Israel to other places that is incorrect. Hamas and Fata and Islamic Jihad have not really moved elsewhere. Its just getting a bit harder for them. And then as for joining the Israeli army which I am not legally obligated to do but I feel morally obligated to do, is in my consideration if I choose to not join ROTC. Pedsox please refrain from guessing what will happen to me in the military. You know just as much about me as I know about you, absolutely nothing.</p>
<p>“As to say that terrorism shifted from Israel to other places that is incorrect.”</p>
<p>You said terrorism is down in Israel since 9/11. World-wide, it’s increased four-times over in the last year alone, thanks to our failed policies in Iraq.</p>
<p>I don’t know if I’d blame our Iraq policy only. It seems that aggression was already directed against us and we just decided to fight back. Like a boil on skin, the area was already hot and ready for lancing.</p>
<p>While I sure wish a simple change in US foreign policy would make it all better, that is just unrealistic. 9/11 happened and we were not even near Baghdad.</p>
<p>To blame the US - or more to the point President Bush - is too simplistic in my view. Many factors are at work, to be sure our errors didn’t help, but they are no reason for what we see. Even if we came home tomorrow, they terrorists would follow us - they would nuke New York, LA or Washington if they could. </p>
<p>Bush is not responsible for this - the Wahabi terrorists are.</p>
<p>Also there is the whole thing that terrorism works. Its simple as that. Since 911 it has become so evident there are only a handful of nations that are hard on terror the rest arent doing what they shold and giving in. Just look at the history of terrorism and how much it has accomplished precisely because of Europe and the UN giving in</p>
<p>P2N, your assertions about terrorists, implicitly connecting to Iraq, are laughable. 99 percent of the violence in Iraq is intramural. The people committing it are incapable of putting together a nuke or anything else that can harm us. 60 percent of Iraqis sympathize with the attacks on our forces, 80 percent want to see us leave.</p>
<p>Now if you want to connect a foreign arena to terrorism, you are better served by directing the spotlight at Afghanistan/Pakistan. Where we are screwing the pooch even worse than in Iraq…this invasion <em>was</em> necessary, and there was widespread support for us. Instead, by every valid metric, we’re either going downhill or at best treading water, with the net direction being down.</p>
<p>Iraq is only part of my observation, but I’m always glad to improve the humor of the cc bbs. 
Your estimates, for example, of what is happening in Iraq are a guess and equally worthy of a joke or two. No one said Iraq was the sum of the problem. ;)</p>
<p>Be that as it may - it’s important to recognize that we’re not out of the woods. Democrats may think by leaving Iraq it’s all better, but that is foolish. I hope they know better. Democrats are now either a part of the solution or a part of the problem. Time will tell which.</p>
<p>Actually, P2N, I’ll be happy to go toe-to-toe with anyone on CC about Iraq, I am not guessing. I’m tough to out-wonk. So, pick a topic: security, infrastructure, governance, religion, politics, economics…and let’s have at it. But please get beyond the cliches and the platitudes first: cite specific personnel, events, Iraqi political and religious figures, etc. My guess is that most Bush supporters wouldn’t know their SCIRI from their Dawa, their Mahdi from their Maliki, their Badr Corps from the Mahdi Army, their Najaf from their Karbala, the effectiveness of New Iraqi Army battallions and what functions they’re dependent upon the US Army for, etc. </p>
<p>“Stay the course” is a slogan, not a strategy; “winning” is a goal, not a “strategy.”</p>
<p>Wow - you’re really looking for an argument and frankly, I’m not in the mood. Further, I’m not impressed nor intimidated by your bluster and froth. Find someone else to fuss with. ;)</p>
<p>But…since you’re holding yourself out as an expert in this area, please give me your analysis of how to correct the current situation - in Baghdad.</p>
<p>p2n – just ignore td. He likes to toss around a lot of terms that he thinks others won’t understand in order to sound like he knows what he’s talking about. </p>
<p>A wonk, by the way, is someone who studies a subject or issue thoroughly and excessively. To me, that means someone who makes their living doing such analysis. That person would have access to non-public information, and spend the majority of his/her time gathering and analyzing data. Someone who only reads the MSM, imo, doesn’t qualify as such. So, for example, I’d classify someone as a wonk regarding Iraqi politics if they had an advanced degree in Middle Eastern Studies and works for the Rand Corp. for example. People who are in a position to know what’s really going on in the middle east probably don’t have time to post on CC. Once again, just my opinion.</p>
<p>By the way, I’ve challenged thedad to explain his solution to Iraq at least 4 or 5 times – he’s never answered.</p>