I have been asked by a close family friend to help make a list of school options for their D25.
They are basically totally in the dark when it comes to any of this. They are also in the unfortunate financial circumstance where they have no college savings and low income, but own rental properties so the likely will not get much aid.
Their D25 does not want to stay in state, so the most obvious choices are low on the list (though obviously the best choice).
Highish stats. Wants to study education and vocal performance, so low future income and paying off loans will be tough.
Am I allowed to get help from this community if it is not my child? They have put a lot of trust in me helping them, so I want to do the best I can.
They want kiddo to take the $5500 direct federal loan and then they thought that the kiddo could just take out more loans themselves. They knew nothing about Parent Plus loans and don’t feel comfortable taking them on (they are already in debt).
So basically they ideally hope they will pay nothing.
I would have them run some NPCs. I guess it depends on what you mean by low ish income. Really low ish or CC low?are they below the level where assets will be collected on the FAFSA? In that case any FAFSA only school will work. Otherwise remember that income is the primary driver of need-based aid. The rental properties will be assessed at 5% (more or less) of their equity value. So, if they have $500,000 worth of equity in the properties they will be expected to pay roughly $25,000 (probably less). But it doesn’t sound like they have that kind of equity so it will be less. The kid can work and earn money over the summer and take the $5500. The parents will have some savings from kid no longer living at home remind them and can maybe contribute that $5k or so? Honestly if the equity in the properties is over $500k then they should consider selling one. They will still only be assessed 5% whether it’s cash or equity.
IMO first step is working with the kid and presenting the fact that their parents’ budget is their primary factor in college selection (unfortunately.)
I would run some NPCs, but if it’s true they won’t get any need based, there aren’t many options.
The student can go the CC route, live at home if that is possible, work part-time (or work full time and go to school part-time) and then transfer to a 4 year in-state school that has an articulation agreement with the CC.
I wouldn’t recommend this student take more loans to go out of state for an education or vocal performance major. There is (likely) no way for this student to get loans beyond the $27K in student loans that the parents wouldn’t have to co-sign anyway.
My high stats kids were able to get tuition down to an average of $35,000 a year OOS, so a little higher than in state. Some were still close to $50,000. Students can take the federal loans, but won’t be able to borrow in their name without a co-signer. Financial aid is based on things like income and assets, having debt means nothing, or higher costs due to living in a high COL location. College is very expensive.
My DD’19 wanted to go OOS, and that included not going to the small regional public that was in fact OOS but only 90 miles from home. We looked all around, but that small public actually had everything she wanted and the top auto merit plus in-state rates were reasonably easy to achieve. She kind of had to get off her high horse and take an objective look at it instead of immediately dismissing it.
So the non-flagship public in the Midwest was about $15K COA for her. (Note that those regional publics often are great for education majors!) One-time scholarships earned in HS senior year helped with the first year. American Opportunity Tax Credit can get the parents $2500 back each year if they qualify. Moving off campus saved another couple thousand a year. DD had some money in savings and she worked.
Can the student and parent make their own accounts here and ask questions directly?
Going through you (without detailing things that could be privacy concerns if revealed through a third party), the best that they can get is some general information about NPCs, WUE, etc…
I have 2 kids that went through music admissions. One soprano vocalist. My first thought as a parent who was shooting for merit and music is that all options are open, but finances are top on the table. We live walking distance from our state flagship. Every year local students say they won’t stay in state. And every year some of those students end up at the flagship or within easy distance of home. And those students are happy and thrive. So if you don’t have an open budget, finding the best financial and academic fit should be the goal. Not being in a particular location. I wouldn’t let a 16 year old’s prejudgment on in state options guide the search. Both my kids had OOS preferences but the state flagship/in state options were on the table until the end.
My first question in these circumstances would be does she want to do music education given this combo? Or a performance AND music ed degree? Or something else? Or might applying for a few different paths be ok?
Has this family run through net price calculators to see if they really don’t qualify for aid? Having other properties can really mess with the calculators so I do believe it. And we weren’t willing/able to be full pay x2 kids. So no judgment from me at all (nor should there be, everyone understands their own finances best and calculators are pretty simple), it’s just good to check.
If they don’t qualify for aid, getting to zero is going to be hard. Especially if they’re hoping for this student to live on campus. I wouldn’t waste time on music programs that are most generous to those who qualify for need based aid. There is merit money out there for vocal students. But less for high vocalists in my experience. A lot of vocal programs have a less than 10-15% acceptance rate. My kid is at a program no one talks about and the acceptance rate was 8% this year. She did get enough merit to go out of state. But the bottom line is just under our state flagship. Which if a program wanted you, seemed to be what a lot of programs would try to hit for full pay students.
You can find good music faculty at lots of offbeat schools. You don’t need to do a bachelor of music program to do music. I know a vocalist locally who went to a directional public for undergrad who is perfoming next to vocalists who went to every fancy music conservatory now. I do agree that it’s much better to graduate without debt or with minimal debt as a music/arts student.
Anyway this is a super complicated question given this combo of major and financial desires and music merit is hard to predict. And academic merit may be difficult too. I’d ask the parents first what they can contribute per year as a starting point. If it’s literally zero, I’d be looking at commute options for the first 2 years first. That doesn’t mean she can’t apply for reachy merit/schools and see where the finances fall out. But having an affordable safety (at least one) should be at the top of the list.
I’m not sure on the rules or if this might get locked, you can message me if you want.
Some WUE schools they may want to check out include South Dakota State, Western Washington, Boise State, U. of New Mexico, U. of Northern Colorado, and U. of Idaho, as they all have music ed majors and seem to have relatively popular music majors, generally.
If looking for a smaller school, Pacific Lutheran might be worth looking into as well.
U.of North Texas has a super strong music program and modest scholarships can earn students in-state rates, which are amongst the most affordable in the U.S. @dfbdfb might have more to share about UNT.
And if your kid wants jazz, the University of North Texas is arguably the best program in the country. (I mean, there are a handful of other places that would dispute that, but it’s crazy strong, and the fact that a regional public is in the conversation with three or four Big Name Expensive Schools™? Kind of crazy.)
But yeah, my C23 is at UNT in a music-adjacent program (though not music), and loves it there. Their merit aid program as currently constituted is that if an OOS student is awarded $1k or more in merit aid—and given “highish stats”, you’re pretty certainly looking at more than that—they’re also awarded a waiver of the OOS surcharge. It’s a way sweet deal.
In limited cases where a parent is specifically asked by another family for help, knows they are posting information on this site, and no identifying information is provided, we have allowed “asking for a friend.”
It’s a great deal…but will be more than $5500 a year (the freshman limit for the direct loan).
If this $5500 really is the amount this student has for freshman year, I’m having trouble seeing how any four year residential college will be affordable. Room and board at most places costs double this amount or more.
I would help the student understand the finances of college, the actual costs, and their potential to get a full ride free which is really what they will need. For out of state, add in transportation costs, and possibly health insurance, and you have exceeded $5500.
The student needs to understand that their college thing will be a journey, and might not be a traditional one.
I’d add Southern Oregon U to that list, unless there’s a reason you left it off? They have strong performing arts generally - especially theater, but music as well, with scholarship opportunities for music majors in addition to WUE and academic merit $. It’s a BA/BS with a performance emphasis, not a BFA, but that’s better if she wants to double-major. They have an education major also, with an optional licensure pathway. They don’t have a specific music education major, but it doesn’t appear to me that this is what the student wants, anyway. Really nice smaller public (<5K undergrads) with an artsy vibe.
I don’t know whether it’s possible to get enough scholarship money to make SOU, or other WUE schools, affordable given the very limited budget. An in-state school she can commute to may be the only realistic option. But it’s worth investigating what’s possible.
Clarification: music (vocal) and elementary education. Not music education.
Thanks for the ideas so far. I am compiling them. I honestly think at this point the only real financial fit option will be living at home and going instate. But I will keep pushing to find something for them.
In my opinion, being a voice major AND being an elementary education major could be challenging. Voice students have required things like ensembles all four years. Elementary education majors MUST do student teaching and sometimes student observations that take them OFF campus. Plus…while student teaching, being in an ensemble and also fulfilling the requirements for a voice major could be challenging.
One of my kids is a professional musician with both bachelors and masters degrees in performance. He had precious little time even for electives.
My second kid is a very talented instrumentalist on an endangered instrument. She wanted to play in the orchestra in college but NOT be a music major. She was pretty sure she would minor in music. But when the time came, she found she didn’t have enough time in her schedule to take the music minor course requirements. But she did play in the orchestra all four years, and took private lessons.
Is it possible that this student might consider the elementary education major…and pursue music in a different way than a college degree? We know a number of kids who sang in choirs, and some mighty good ones, while in college…and continued voice lessons while majoring in something else.
ETA…where does this student plan to teach? It usually the least complicated to do teacher training IN the state you plan to work in. Those colleges prepare you to be certified there.
I will say, she has financial constraints that make Utah a possibility, although I’m not clear if the public universities there are even affordable.
For students who want to attend college out of state, but can’t afford it, National Student Exchange can be a good compromise. NSE allows up to 1 year of exchange at any of the other ~200 participating institutions, paying no more tuition than what the student is paying at the home institution. This still leaves room and board, but perhaps there are relatives or family friends who live elsewhere and would be willing to host the student for a semester? Utah’s participating schools are Southern Utah University, Utah State, and Weber State. Perhaps one of these is commutable for the student. https://nse.org/exchange/colleges-universities/alpha-location/
Another option could be winning a competitive full ride scholarship somewhere. This is what I believe @gpo613 's education major daughter did at Central Michigan University. Directional publics and regional privates often award a few such scholarships. For example our family knows someone attending Carthage College on a big scholarship (not sure if full ride or just full tuition.) But of course the student would need to be high stats.
